Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[ThomistColin]

Where do you apply justification then?

Justification is found in the saving faith which has works. Saving faith has works, and all true faith is saving faith. This is why Paul says we are justified by faith through grace, and James says faith without works is dead. They don't contradict if works are part of true faith that Paul is speaking of, because if works aren't part of faith, then there is a contradiction.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Justification is found in the saving faith which has works. Saving faith has works, and all true faith is saving faith. This is why Paul says we are justified by faith through grace, and James says faith without works is dead. They don't contradict if works are part of true faith that Paul is speaking of, because if works aren't part of faith, then there is a contradiction.

So then you agree, faith alone justifies and if that faith does not have fruit, then it wasn't really faith?

 

[konroh]

Or, more biblically, faith alone does save (justify before God) Eph. 2:8-9. Faith being grown by works saves (sanctifies, justifies before men) James 2:14-26. Faith alone glorifies (Rom 8:30).

Fruit indicates that your faith is growing. People who have faith and not a lot of fruit are pruned by God, John 15, those who fail to abide in Christ are cast down, (physically punished). They are still eternally saved, but they are failing to obey. Failing to follow the great High priest,

Heb 5:8Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

The source of eternal salvation is continual salvation, sanctification. It has to be thus, did the high priests of the OT save the people again and again in an initial way? Did the people every year lose their salvation and have to be saved again? No! He saved/sanctified them in a continual way. Same with this passage from Hebrews.

Hebrews is about continuing salvation, as is clear from the beginning of the book, about entering rest, Heb 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Hebrews is the doctoral dissertation of the NT, failure to understand it has led many to have weird views. Read it simply, and understand how it asserts the supremacy of Christ in every way, as the author and finisher of our faith. How do we finish our faith? It takes effort on our part, and if we fall away, we are in danger of the chastening fire of God, but we are not in danger of losing that which God has laid hold of us for, initial and positional salvation. We are only in danger of losing sanctification, continual deliverance from the power of sin in our lives.

May God's words truly be understood.
In humble submission

 

[ThomistColin]

So then you agree, faith alone justifies and if that faith does not bear fruit, then it wasn't really faith?

Yes and no., because works can exist outside of faith, only GOOD works are found in faith. Therefore, works are necessary, good works. At this point, we are differing only on our side of the coin. One argues from the positive, if you have faith, you are going to live forever. Where I am arguing from the negative, if you do only that which is for you alone, you will burn in the Lake of Fire. In the end, the split between Catholic and Protestant was a split over how to describe the Way of the Lord. While many other differences exist now, this was the dumb reason for the great split. If only us Catholics could understand this, and only the Protestants understand this, then we would be one great step closer to a unified Church.

 

[ThomistColin]

Or, more biblically, faith alone does save (justify before God) Eph. 2:8-9. Faith being grown by works saves (sanctifies, justifies before men) James 2:14-26. Faith alone glorifies (Rom 8:30).

Fruit indicates that your faith is growing. People who have faith and not a lot of fruit are pruned by God, John 15, those who fail to abide in Christ are cast down, (physically punished). They are still eternally saved, but they are failing to obey. Failing to follow the great High priest,

Heb 5:8Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

The source of eternal salvation is continual salvation, sanctification. It has to be thus, did the high priests of the OT save the people again and again in an initial way? Did the people every year lose their salvation and have to be saved again? No! He saved/sanctified them in a continual way. Same with this passage from Hebrews.

Hebrews is about continuing salvation, as is clear from the beginning of the book, about entering rest, Heb 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Hebrews is the doctoral dissertation of the NT, failure to understand it has led many to have weird views. Read it simply, and understand how it asserts the supremacy of Christ in every way, as the author and finisher of our faith. How do we finish our faith? It takes effort on our part, and if we fall away, we are in danger of the chastening fire of God, but we are not in danger of losing that which God has laid hold of us for, initial and positional salvation. We are only in danger of losing sanctification, continual deliverance from the power of sin in our lives.

May God's words truly be understood.
In humble submission

I agree with almost everything you wrote. We may interpret or think that those who fail at succeeding in faith, those who don't bear "good fruit" are saved, but it is unprovable due to our lack at having been to Heaven and fully beyond this life and the Scriptures that seem to say otherwise. So, I don't seek to teach that which I think or interpret, I fail at this too often, and therefore, try to teach that which I would stake my life on.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Yes and no., because works can exist outside of faith, only GOOD works are found in faith. Therefore, works are necessary, good works. At this point, we are differing only on our side of the coin. One argues from the positive, if you have faith, you are going to live forever. Where I am arguing from the negative, if you do only that which is for you alone, you will burn in the Lake of Fire. In the end, the split between Catholic and Protestant was a split over how to describe the Way of the Lord. While many other differences exist now, this was the dumb reason for the great split. If only us Catholics could understand this, and only the Protestants understand this, then we would be one great step closer to a unified Church.

Then you contradict Ephesians 2:8-9 and yourself, because all faith is given to us by God, and like you said faith comes with works right? So God gave us a free packaged deal. You both trust and obey, you can't have faith then fall away. Faith produces works, faith justifies, faith comes from grace, grace comes from God.

Oh trust me, we understood, got to praise God for Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.

 

[ThomistColin]

Then you contradict Ephesians 2:8-9 and yourself, because all faith is given to us by God, and like you said faith comes with works right? So God gave us a free packaged deal. You both trust and obey, you can't have faith then fall away. Faith produces works, faith justifies, faith comes from grace, grace comes from God.

Oh trust me, we understood, got to praise God for Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.

Luther is quoted in history as saying, "I can break my vow to my wife a thousand times and enter the kingdom of Heaven." That is a quote from a sermon of his after the Augsburg Confession. That is sheer heresy, if not apostasy.
So, I reached out in seeking open dialogue and you celebrate the divide. That is equivalent of you reaching out to me, and me heralding Alexander VI and Torquemada.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Luther is quoted in history as saying, "I can break my vow to my wife a thousand times and enter the kingdom of Heaven." That is a quote from a sermon of his after the Augsburg Confession. That is sheer heresy, if not apostasy.
So, I reached out in seeking open dialogue and you celebrate the divide. That is equivalent of you reaching out to me, and me heralding Alexander VI and Torquemada.

I don't know where exactly you quoted that from, but Martin Luther made it clear of Romans that law cannot have any jurisdiction on the saved, just as a dead servant is to a master. We are not under law but under grace, law can't condemn you if you are dead to it!!

Look, I believe Catholicism is completely heretical, from many of its teachings to many of its practices. I lean more on reformed theology btw...

 

[ThomistColin]

I don't know where exactly you quoted that from, but Martin Luther made it clear of Romans that law cannot have any jurisdiction on the saved, just as a dead servant is to a master. We are not under law but under grace, law can't condemn you if you are dead to it!!

Look, I believe Catholicism is completely heretical, from many of its teachings to many of its practices. I lean more on reformed theology btw...

And yet I only say that part of Protestantism is heresy, not completely or else you would be apostates.

 

[konroh]

Not to further the divide, but I can appreciate Luther's quote. What he's simply saying is that the awesome grace of God covers all sins, past, present and future. Otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Spokenpassage, glad we can have some agreement on my previous post. I would submit that while God is sovereign even over my faith, it is sometimes an absurd statement to speak of God giving me faith, at least from a human perspective. Even in Eph. 2:8-9 the Greek grammar use of gender shows that it is not faith that God gives us, it is the salvation process. Specifically gratia and pistis are feminine and masculine words, yet the "this not of yourselves" in Greek, the "this" is neuter. It cannot refer to either grace or faith in the verse. It can only refer to the whole process of "salvation by grace through faith."

Let me extend the Catholic olive leaf. It seems clear that Catholics have a penciled line between the idea of faith and works whereas Protestants for the most part have a black marker. How much can we agree?

Here are three statements:

Faith that saves will always have good works, thus faith and good works save.
Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone.
Faith alone saves, faith should produce good works.

In my opinion, the first line is Catholic thought, the second line is Reformed thought, the third line is Biblical thought.

 

[Spokenpassage]

And yet I only say that part of Protestantism is heresy, not completely or else you would be apostates.

Before i thought you were eastern orthodoxy btw, I guess not.

 

[ThomistColin]

Not to further the divide, but I can appreciate Luther's quote. What he's simply saying is that the awesome grace of God covers all sins, past, present and future. Otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Spokenpassage, glad we can have some agreement on my previous post. I would submit that while God is sovereign even over my faith, it is sometimes an absurd statement to speak of God giving me faith, at least from a human perspective. Even in Eph. 2:8-9 the Greek grammar use of gender shows that it is not faith that God gives us, it is the salvation process. Specifically gratia and pistis are feminine and masculine words, yet the "this not of yourselves" in Greek, the "this" is neuter. It cannot refer to either grace or faith in the verse. It can only refer to the whole process of "salvation by grace through faith."

Let me extend the Catholic olive leaf. It seems clear that Catholics have a penciled line between the idea of faith and works whereas Protestants for the most part have a black marker. How much can we agree?

Here are three statements:

Faith that saves will always have good works, thus faith and good works save.
Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone.
Faith alone saves, faith should produce good works.

In my opinion, the first line is Catholic thought, the second line is Reformed thought, the third line is Biblical thought.

I think the biblical line is Faith saves, it does produce good works. However, that might be a simple argument over semantics.

 

[ThomistColin]

Before i thought you were eastern orthodoxy btw, I guess not.

Nope,Catholic.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Not to further the divide, but I can appreciate Luther's quote. What he's simply saying is that the awesome grace of God covers all sins, past, present and future. Otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Spokenpassage, glad we can have some agreement on my previous post. I would submit that while God is sovereign even over my faith, it is sometimes an absurd statement to speak of God giving me faith, at least from a human perspective. Even in Eph. 2:8-9 the Greek grammar use of gender shows that it is not faith that God gives us, it is the salvation process. Specifically gratia and pistis are feminine and masculine words, yet the "this not of yourselves" in Greek, the "this" is neuter. It cannot refer to either grace or faith in the verse. It can only refer to the whole process of "salvation by grace through faith."

Let me extend the Catholic olive leaf. It seems clear that Catholics have a penciled line between the idea of faith and works whereas Protestants for the most part have a black marker. How much can we agree?

Here are three statements:

Faith that saves will always have good works, thus faith and good works save.
Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone.
Faith alone saves, faith should produce good works.

In my opinion, the first line is Catholic thought, the second line is Reformed thought, the third line is Biblical thought.

I do not know how you picked that up from the Greek. Faith isn't a common grace everybody has, I could pull up scripture explaining that, but it would take some time. Kinda lazy right now.

It's not absurd, it's highly scriptural. Helkyo...

 

[Spokenpassage]

I think the biblical line is Faith saves, it does produce good works. However, that might be a simple argument over semantics.

But of course you don't stand on the sola fide?

 

[TaylorTG]

Re: Spokenpassage



You say that faith produces works. Everyone here agrees.

Faith is the main component of how we're saved. It is very dangerous for a Christian to not have sufficient trust in the Lord.

Without faith, what is the point of fostering a relationship with the Lord?

If faith produces good fruits via good works, then how that these good fruits, which has been essentially produced by faith, not be beneficial to our salvation in some way?

Then you contradict Ephesians 2:8-9 and yourself, because all faith is given to us by God, and like you said faith comes with works right? So God gave us a free packaged deal. You both trust and obey, you can't have faith then fall away. Faith produces works, faith justifies, faith comes from grace, grace comes from God.

Now I wonder why you suppose it's my interpretation, when the Roman Catholic listens to whatever the Pope says despite scripture? You are Roman Catholic aren't you?

The pope is not the head of the church in the fullest sense. We Catholics look at him as a representative of Christ. The Kingdom of Heaven resides on this planet via the church.

Matthew 16:18-19 Peter, you are the rock, and on this rock I will build my church. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the jaws of death will not prevail against it. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


At first glance, this bible passage may seem disconnected from the Catholic church, but a dig into history would reveal that Catholicism has indeed been the root of Christianity. The early church fathers did believe in things such as immaculate conception.




Matthew 13:25 A divided Kingdom will fall. A town or household split into factions cannot last for long.

Don't attack and mock us, all right? Atheists and anti-Catholics attack Pope Francis daily via his Twitter wall. We don't need to hear these attacks from anyone, especially from our fellow Christians.




It's already bad enough that we tell Atheists and buddhists that they're going to Hell.

Telling fellow Christians (especially Children) that they're going to Hell is even worse.

Matthew 25:40 Whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me.

 

[ThomistColin]

But of course you don't stand on the sola fide?

Didn't we just acknowledge that?

 

[Spokenpassage]

Taylor, notice I said Catholicism is heretical, did I say the follower is condemned? No. Of course they most definitely can be if they aren't following Christ.

A Christian does not fall away, because his faith is genuine. You cannot have faith and fall away, it doesn't work like that.

Faith --> Justification --> Sanctification --> Glorification = God's grace.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Didn't we just acknowledge that?

Just quoting from you here...

 

[ThomistColin]

Just quoting from you here...

Oh ok, sorry then.