Does water baptism save us

[saved1975]

Don't tell me what the Greek says, show me what the Greek says... prove your statement.

I have shown you what the Greek says.

If you go on the internet, You can check it up for yourself.
But the Bible alone shows us that water baptism doesn't save.
The disciples were baptised in water, But they weren't saved until Jesus died and rose again, Proving that water baptism doesn't save.

Paul was saved three days before he was baptised in the Holy Ghost, And that was before he was baptised in water.
The Gentiles in Acts 10, were saved, Baptised in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, But they weren't baptised in water.
The disciples in Acts 19, were saved, But they weren't baptised in the Christian water baptism.

All these prove that water baptism doesn't save.

 

[saved1975]

3067 loutron loo-tron' from 3068; a bath, i.e. (figuratively), baptism:--washing. see GREEK for 3068

Titus 3: 5 doesn't say water baptism "Loutron", baths us, It says "Regeneration" baths us.

There is no power in water to regenerate a person, If there was, The disciples would have been saved long before Jesus died and rose again.

 

[saved1975]

I'm sorry dude but Peter said, Noah was saved through water. It's the like figure whereby baptism does now save us. His statement is pretty clear. I don't see how you're turning it around claiming that the Greek says so.

The water didn't save Noah, It would have drowned him, It was the ark that saved Noah.
And water baptism without ALREADY being born again, will kill people.

The Greek says, "Water baptism is an expression of salvation, Not the medium of salvation, The symbol of salvation, Not the cause of salvation".
Peter said water baptism Is only a figure of salvation, Which agrees with the original Greek text.

Peter knew that water baptism doesn't save, He knew it from his personal experience, As he was baptised, But not saved.
He told the people in Acts 2: 38, To repent for the remission of sins, Then and then only can you be baptised in water.

I find that those who come against the Greek, Do so because they know it proves them wrong.

 

[Jackson123]

The water didn't save Noah, It would have drowned him, It was the ark that saved Noah.
And water baptism without ALREADY being born again, will kill people.

The Greek says, "Water baptism is an expression of salvation, Not the medium of salvation, The symbol of salvation, Not the cause of salvation".
Peter said water baptism Is only a figure of salvation, Which agrees with the original Greek text.

Peter knew that water baptism doesn't save, He knew it from his personal experience, As he was baptised, But not saved.
He told the people in Acts 2: 38, To repent for the remission of sins, Then and then only can you be baptised in water.

I find that those who come against the Greek, Do so because they know it proves them wrong.

Yes brother.

Or in my opinion we also can say as a fruit of salvation.

Baptism is more like a testimony to the congregation that we did make a decision to accept Jesus and die to our ego raise in Him in victory.

Before the baptism, person make his decision than declare or testified his decision in front of congregation.

It is similar to salvation.

Salvation is by faith, not work. But salvation produce work.

So baptism is product of salvation, not all the way around.

 

[saved1975]

Yes brother.

Or in my opinion we also can say as a fruit of salvation.

Baptism is more like a testimony to the congregation that we did make a decision to accept Jesus and die to our ego raise in Him in victory.

Before the baptism, person make his decision than declare or testified his decision in front of congregation.

It is similar to salvation.

Salvation is by faith, not work. But salvation produce work.

So baptism is product of salvation, not all the way around.

That is so true.

 

[mailmandan]

The baptism is a figurative washing, another way of saying a spiritual washing, it is not as Peter says in 1 Pet 3:20-21, not the removal of the filth of the flesh...

A figurative washing in baptism (metaphorical and not literal) is not another way of saying a literal spiritual washing.

1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Salvation is signified, yet not procured by water baptism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wrong again,

To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
1 Corinthians 9:20-22 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Win them from what?

From coming out from condemnation which was (is) brought on by the law. To bring them to grace. A person outside the law is not under grace, but under condemnation. Because they have failed to live up to the standard of the law. Are you living that standard today? Paul says no one has, He said for ALL have sinned, and come up short. The law condemns. As scripture says., When we are in Christ, we are not under law, but under grace

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The baptism is a figurative washing, another way of saying a spiritual washing, it is not as Peter says in 1 Pet 3:20-21, not the removal of the filth of the flesh...

Your right,

it does not remove sin, it does not remove the filth that is in us, and holds us dead to Christ. thus it can never make us alive in Christ, who were dead in trespasses and sin.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Your right,

it does not remove sin, it does not remove the filth that is in us, and holds us dead to Christ. thus it can never make us alive in Christ, who were dead in trespasses and sin.

Your wrong,

 Acts 22:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

[HR][/HR] Revelation 1:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

There are not two ways to wash away our sins, Paul shows us how we come into spiritual contact with His cleansing blood, Acts 22:16, it is water baptism,

We know there is only one baptism "Ephesians 4:5 (KJV) One Lord, one faith, one baptism," and Peter in 1 Peter 3:20-21 says it is water :

1 Peter 3:20-21 (NKJV) [SUP]20 [/SUP] who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. [SUP]21 [/SUP] There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

An "antitype" is like your face in a mirror only the opposite. Like in the days of Noah, where water washed the sins of the world, Peter says "water now saves us" its called "baptism" with water. And just so people like you don't mix this up with a regular bath, he expounds (not the removal of the filth of the flesh...)

You can see that, you just have to either reject it or the dogma of your man made religion, and you won't let go of the man made religion so guess which one you reject, the truth.

 

[Jabberjaw]

A figurative washing in baptism (metaphorical and not literal) is not another way of saying a literal spiritual washing.

1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Salvation is signified, yet not procured by water baptism.

And you completely over step the fact Peter said it is "water" in which this happens. unbelievable.

 

[Jabberjaw]

The water didn't save Noah, It would have drowned him, It was the ark that saved Noah.
And water baptism without ALREADY being born again, will kill people.

it is "water" that Peter is emphasizing, you put words in Peters mouth to support your self imposed religion, Peter said like how water washed away the sins of the world, there is now an antitype "αντιτυπον", that now water washes away "our sins".

The Greek says, "Water baptism is an expression of salvation, Not the medium of salvation, The symbol of salvation, Not the cause of salvation".
Peter said water baptism Is only a figure of salvation, Which agrees with the original Greek text.

You don't know Greek, you can't use it to prove what you say, you should retract all of this.

Peter knew that water baptism doesn't save, He knew it from his personal experience, As he was baptised, But not saved.

Prove this or retract it.

He told the people in Acts 2: 38, To repent for the remission of sins, Then and then only can you be baptised in water.

I find that those who come against the Greek, Do so because they know it proves them wrong.

The Greek does not say "repent for the remission of sins" you don't know Greek so you should quit acting like you do, you're a false teacher of your self imposed religion.

 

[saved1975]

it is "water" that Peter is emphasizing, you put words in Peters mouth to support your self imposed religion, Peter said like how water washed away the sins of the world, there is now an antitype "αντιτυπον", that now water washes away "our sins".



You don't know Greek, you can't use it to prove what you say, you should retract all of this.



Prove this or retract it.



The Greek does not say "repent for the remission of sins" you don't know Greek so you should quit acting like you do, you're a false teacher of your self imposed religion.

You have overlooked the fact that Peter said baptism is only a figure, a symbol of salvation.


I know enough Greek to know that you are wrong.

The Greek does say,
"Repent for the remission of sins".
In the Greek, There are numbers and persons, And they have to agree in order to build a doctrine.

And "Be baptized" doesn't agree with, "Repent and you shall receive the Holy Ghost".

So there is no way that water baptism can save.

 

[SeaBass]

I've said this once but it must have been ignored. . . passed over. . . . or just refused!!!!

"born of water and of the Spirit" is the figure of speech hendiadys - two words are used but only one thing is meant. Here the one thing is water but Jesus emphasises [with a figure of speech] the fact that this water is not to be material as it was under the law, but spiritual; i.e. spiritual water. So if you have "spiritual water" in your baptismal; go for it. You can be baptized in water 50 times a day but it will not give birth to spirit; the new creation, the new man within you. I will stick with being baptized with 'living water' which is the holy Spirit.

Jesus did not say "except a man be born of spirit and of the spirit".

Water is literal water.

What continues to be ignored is the bible being its own best commentary on Jn 3:5:

Jn 3:5---------------------spirit++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in kingdom
1cor 12;13---------------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>in body


Water of Jn 3:5 is baptism, spirit is not baptized.

1 cor 12:13 does not say by one spirit are we spirit into one body

 

[SeaBass]

Please note, In Jn 3: 5, Jesus DIDN'T say we must be baptised.
Jesus mentions the rebirth 5 times in Jn 3: 3--8, And water [NOT Baptism] ONCE.

According to the Greek, The "Water" in Jn 3: 5, Is "The word", And the Bible proves it.
Jn 15: 3. Eph 5: 26. James 1: 18. 1 Pet 1: 22--23.

Water means water I Jn 3:5. Proper exegesis is a word is to be taken literally unless something in the context shows it is being used figuratively. Nothing in the context shows either "water" or "spirit" is used figuratively.


Again, the bible is its own best commentary on Jn 3:5


Jn 3:5---------------spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body


When comparing two "new birth" verses it is obvious that water is baptism. So it is a man-made bias, nothing contextual, as to why some are working hard to make water mean anything other than what Jesus meant for it to mean: water baptism.


If you can make "water" in Jn 3:5 mean whatever you want it to mean, then any one can make any word in any verse mean whatever they want it to mean.

 

[SeaBass]

Titus 3: 5 doesn't say water baptism "Loutron", baths us, It says "Regeneration" baths us.

There is no power in water to regenerate a person, If there was, The disciples would have been saved long before Jesus died and rose again.

Jn 3:5---------------spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Tts3:5-----------Holy Spirit++++++washing of reg>>>>>saved


When comparing three "new birth" verses we get "born of water" of Jn 3:5 equivalent to "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13 and "washing of regeneration" of Titus 3"5.

 

[notuptome]

Jn 3:5---------------spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Tts3:5-----------Holy Spirit++++++washing of reg>>>>>saved


When comparing three "new birth" verses we get "born of water" of Jn 3:5 equivalent to "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13 and "washing of regeneration" of Titus 3"5.

Get over yourself. The water birth in John 3:5 is the natural birth of man. This precedes the Spiritual birth which Christ clarifies in the later verses in the passage. Here we go again perverting scripture by taking verse out of context and not considering the whole story.

Having eyes they do not see and having ears they will not hear.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jabberjaw]

The Greek does say,
"Repent for the remission of sins".

Show me or retract.

 

[SeaBass]

Get over yourself. The water birth in John 3:5 is the natural birth of man. This precedes the Spiritual birth which Christ clarifies in the later verses in the passage. Here we go again perverting scripture by taking verse out of context and not considering the whole story.

Having eyes they do not see and having ears they will not hear.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Take heed to the bible:

"born of water" = "baptized" = "washing of regeneration"


Jn 3:5---------------spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Tts3:5-----------Holy Spirit++++++washing of reg>>>>>saved


Three "new birth" verses none of which speak of a physical birth.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You stated that the flesh sins, but the spirit of man does not. It is the person, man that sins. Not one or the other. That is the same as the gnostics believed. Man does not have two natures that are independent of each other. When we sin it is the person that sins or does not sin. It is influenced by the flesh to sin. Whether we do either is by our will.

When you can point something out to me that is NOT scriptural that I have said, so far, then you might have a beginning point. But so far that has not happened.

Man does not have two natures that are independent of each other. hummm . . . I believe scripture even makes references to two natures - and that these two natures war one against the other.

There is an 'old nature' - That which is born of the flesh is flesh. John 3:6a - Concerning the 'Flesh' we are told it 'cannot please God.' (Romans 8:8); it 'profiteth nothing:' (John 6:63); there is in it 'no good thing:' (Rom. 7:18). or the 'Natural Man' - The 'natural man' receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he get to know them because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Co. 2:14). This portion of scripture stands in correspondence with verse 8 which tells us that 'none of the princes of this world knew the wisdom of God', i.e. the mystery - for it was "hidden" in God (Eph. 3:9) and even now it is "revealed" (1 Cor. 2:10), the natural man cannot get to know it because it is only discerned by the spirit, or the new nature within us, created by the holy Spirit. The 'old nature is in contrast to the 'new nature' - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6b -born or begotten of the holy Spirit. This new nature is called the 'Divine Nature' (2 Peter 1:4). This new nature [spirit] does not change the old nature [flesh] - that's why we are told to renew our minds - to cast down imaginations - to keep our body in subjection.

The 'Old Man' - The 'old man' "is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph. 4:22). These desires or lusts are in all things contrary to God, contrary to His Spirit, and His Word; and to the new nature, the spirit. In contrast to the 'old man' is the 'new man' - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creatrue: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God.. (2 Co. 5:17,18a) - i.e. in that which was created in us; Spirit. We are to 'put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness'. (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and this is also done by the renewing of our minds - being not conformed to this world but being transformed by the renewing of our minds (Romans 12)

The 'Outward Man' - that which is seen and that which actually perishes (2 Cor. 4:16) and this is 'day by day'. As long as we are in the flesh we die daily. In contrast to the 'outward man' is the 'inward man' which is renewed day by day (Rom. 7:22; 2 Co. 4:16; Eph. 3:16) Those that are born again are constantly being nourished and established day by day with grace and strength by the holy Spirit; so that Christ dwells in the heart by faith and we are filled with all the fulness of God (Eph. 5:19). The inward man delights in the law of God (Rom. 7:22) while the outward man is 'not subject to the law of God' (Rom. 8:7)

The 'Heart', i.e. the natural heart which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" (Jer. 17:9) "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." (Matt. 15:19) The 'Carnal Mind' - The 'carnal mind' means 'the mind of the flesh' (Rom. 8:7); this mind of the flesh is 'enmity against God.' 'Not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be', and 'cannot please God'. In contrast to this we have 'the mind'; i.e. in the new nature. It is used in contrast with "flesh" (as "spirit" is), because it refers to that which is inward and invisible. This "mind" serves the law of God (Rom. 7:25) and delights in it (5:22). "the law of the mind" is put for 'the law of God' in Rom. 7:23.

'Sin' - One thing that needs to be distinguished is sin and sins. Sin is the root - sins are the fruit; i.e. the outcome of the old nature. From Romans 5:12 to 8:39 it is "Sin" that is dealt with: the old nature. Although the sinner is justified in Christ, he still feels the working of the old nature, and experiences the conflict between that and the new nature. (Romans 7) It would do anyone good to look up all the verses and maybe do a word study on the differences between our old nature and our new nature - how our walk in the spirit is an actual battle and that the flesh and the spirit are contrary the one to the other. Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things ye would. We need to renew our minds daily so that we can be led by the spirit, the new creature, the new man created in us via the new birth - given by the holy Spirit - washed in spiritual water; i.e. living water given by our Lord Jesus Christ through faith in him.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Jesus did not say "except a man be born of spirit and of the spirit".

Water is literal water.

What continues to be ignored is the bible being its own best commentary on Jn 3:5:

Jn 3:5---------------------spirit++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in kingdom
1cor 12;13---------------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>in body


Water of Jn 3:5 is baptism, spirit is not baptized.

1 cor 12:13 does not say by one spirit are we spirit into one body

I know Jesus didn't say born of spirit and of the spirit - no one said he did.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body - it says by one Spirit we are baptized - not by one 'water' we are baptized into one body. This also means being born again of the Spirit.