Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[VCO]

The Holy Spirits word is the seed (Lk 8:11) that is implanted in the hearts of men when they hear that word (Rom 10:17). It depends upon the heart of man that hear if that seed is believed and grows in their heart and or if they do not believe and the seed does not grow, does not take root.

><>t<><

Now you are getting it! It is Heart KNOWLEDGE of HIM that SAVES, not the spiritual push-ups that are produced out of that heart knowledge. Genuine Faith involves heart knowledge, not just head knowledge. The born again (eternally alive) human spirit thinks too; and it is with the spiritual mind (that the HOLY SPIRIT brought to eternal life), that we choose to Receive Jesus Christ as LORD, submitting to HIM as MASTER (= SAVED).

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord (= SAVED), continue to live in Him, (Our Walk of Obedience produced out of that Salvation.)

 

[konroh]

Originally Posted by SeaBass

But this does not change the fact that without "doing" one is not a friend of Christ, no right to tree of life and cannot enter into the city, is not of God, is not righteous, will not abide forever, cannot come to the light, will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

SeaBass, I would agree with you on much of this, but the doing part of salvation is in the present sanctification of the believer. I would clarify it in the same way Paul clarifies salvation in Rom 8:30 predestined - called - justified - glorified. Notice that sanctification is not mentioned here. There is a present day working out of our sanctification that will reap all the rewards and lifestyle you mentioned above. We will be a friend of Christ, we will have the reward of the right to eat the tree of life, of entering the city, the rewards mentioned in Revelation, which phrases are need to be understood as in some cases euphemistic, that is they only give a part of the picture.

We will also have all the marks of fellowship from 1 John, we will be of God, be righteous, abide forever, come to the light. This is not initial salvation/justification, 1 John speaks of completed joy and extended fellowship with God, these are marks of continued faith in God and continued sanctification, a progress away from sin and towards holiness.

And the idea of entering the kingdom of heaven from Matt. 7 is an awesome picture of living out kingdom living now. I believe it very much may mean the same as the wise man building his house upon the rock, entering the kingdom is a metaphor for actually living out the kingdom principles now in this life, which will bring reward in the next life.

 

[konroh]

><>t<><

Now you are getting it! It is Heart KNOWLEDGE of HIM that SAVES, not the spiritual push-ups that are produced out of that heart knowledge. Genuine Faith involves heart knowledge, not just head knowledge. The born again (eternally alive) human spirit thinks too; and it is with the spiritual mind (that the HOLY SPIRIT brought to eternal life), that we choose to Receive Jesus Christ as LORD, submitting to HIM as MASTER (= SAVED).

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord (= SAVED), continue to live in Him, (Our Walk of Obedience produced out of that Salvation.)

You are making an illegitimate distinction between head and heart. While I would agree that the Bible sometimes makes a distinction between mind and heart, it doesn't do so in the way you're describing. Genuine faith does indeed involve heart knowledge, but faith is not something done in the head, while works are something from the body. All that we do involves all that we are. We can segment it out, but I believe with my whole being, I work with my whole being.

If I say I believe something with my head but not my heart (which by the way is a cultural present day understanding, the Biblical definition of heart often includes the idea of mind) then what am I really saying? That I think something is true but i'm not willing to invest my feelings into that belief? Isn't that just saying that my belief is small?

I think a better way of saying it is that our faith can be small or great, it can lightly impact my mind, heart, body, will, or it can greatly impact them, either way, it's still faith.

 

[konroh]

See the point that is MISSED is that even though he is a son,it DID NOT help Him in His Fathers eyes. The Father very plainly says His son was DEAD. Just BECAUSE he was a son did NOT change the fact that the Father saw the son as being DEAD. OSAS must put the emphasis on the fact he is a son NEVER on the fact that the Father saw the son as being DEAD despite the fact he was a son.

In whatever way we understand that the son is dead in his father's eyes, it must be combined with the fact that the Father is waiting earnestly for the son to return. You don't wait for a dead son. While the father was saying that the son has chosen to sever the relationship, the father was unwilling to do so and waited eagerly for reconciliation. The son didn't lose his sonship, nor the father his love. This sounds like OSAS to me.

 

[SarahM777]

In whatever way we understand that the son is dead in his father's eyes, it must be combined with the fact that the Father is waiting earnestly for the son to return. You don't wait for a dead son. While the father was saying that the son has chosen to sever the relationship, the father was unwilling to do so and waited eagerly for reconciliation. The son didn't lose his sonship, nor the father his love. This sounds like OSAS to me.

If the son had died,the son would STILL HAVE BEEN SEPARATED from the Father. As long as the son WAS SEPARATED from the Father,the Father saw the son as DEAD. No where in that passage can you find that the Father separated himself from the son,it was the son that WILLFULLY walked from the Father. See no matter how OSAS wants to get around it,all the warnings in the Bible are against going into things that will DAMAGE our faith,ie ongoing unrepentant sin,false doctrine etc. They are there for a reason,the heart of the reason is that NO ONE,not even someone who is a son will be saved in UNBELIEF.

On the other side you can't find where Jesus said anywhere where the eleven despite the fact of all things they did (They were rebuked time and time again) Yet Jesus when prayed in the garden,after very clearly telling all of the disciples what they were about to do,He very clearly says He has not lost but ONE. He knows the eleven are about to run,He knows Peter is about to deny Him. Yet Jesus NEVER prays one word about them needing to be restored to SALVATION or them going to need to be restored to SALVATION.

The Bible is very we are declared righteous by FAITH ALONE. BUT on the other side of that what MUST come out of that faith is love,works,trust etc.,but those things ARE not the vehicle by which we are saved. All those can do is show that faith is REAL in the first place.

The thing no where in the Bible can anyone find that a believer CAN NOT go into unbelief. And that is what is at the HEART of all the warnings. You are either declared righteous BY FAITH or you are unrighteous in unbelief.

 

[mailmandan]

The thing no where in the Bible can anyone find that a believer CAN NOT go into unbelief. And that is what is at the HEART of all the warnings. You are either declared righteous BY FAITH or you are unrighteous in unbelief.

Hi Sarah,

Would you liken the security of the believer to someone walking down a road on a mountain with a high wall on both sides of the road in which the person is secure, but is still free to choose to climb over the wall to the other side? or would you liken it to someone walking on a tightrope in which at any given moment they can suddenly slip off?

 

[SarahM777]

Hi Sarah,

Would you liken the security of the believer to someone walking down a road on a mountain with a high wall on both sides of the road in which the person is secure, but is still free to choose to climb over the wall to the other side? or would you liken it to someone walking on a tightrope in which at any given moment they can suddenly slip off?

I see it that as LONG as we remain IN HIM we are secure,I can't find anywhere those that stumbled along the way or even the people at the Church at Corinth were shown to be NOT belonging to the Lord. I see it as being a matter of the heart and willful choice. The whole I believe is the matter of the circumcision of the heart. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees over and over for their HARDNESS of heart and unbelief.

 

[SarahM777]

Hi Sarah,

Would you liken the security of the believer to someone walking down a road on a mountain with a high wall on both sides of the road in which the person is secure, but is still free to choose to climb over the wall to the other side? or would you liken it to someone walking on a tightrope in which at any given moment they can suddenly slip off?

See part of our problem as Christians is that we forget is that many of the things in the Bible appear on the surface to be PARADOXES. If one does NOT deal with the paradoxes CORRECTLY you end up with a skewed perspective. One must be able to DEFINE what is being said on one side and also with the passages that seem to contradict those passages on the other. BOTH are true. The real question is HOW do they fit together.

Take a look at the title of this thread.

Salvation Not Possible Without Works

What is being said in that statement? It can be true or untrue depending on what is being MEANT by what is said.
If one is saying that it is the works themselves that save,it is wrong. If one is saying that works COMES out of a living breathing faith,it is true. Neither of those CONTRADICT each other,because both are within the limits of what the scriptures teach.

 

[mailmandan]

See part of our problem as Christians is that we forget is that many of the things in the Bible appear on the surface to be PARADOXES. If one does NOT deal with the paradoxes CORRECTLY you end up with a skewed perspective. One must be able to DEFINE what is being said on one side and also with the passages that seem to contradict those passages on the other. BOTH are true. The real question is HOW do they fit together.

I was just asking that question because I've heard people in the NOSAS camp say everything from, "remaining in Christ is an extremely difficult burden that most of us will surely fail to do and the Lord will just so easily allow us to slip through His fingers," to "only a small percentage of born again Christians will become so hard hearted that they will lose faith and their salvation." I was just curious to see where you fit into these categories. The wall on a mountain with two high walls on both sides is an analogy that I heard from an Assemblies of God preacher who is in the NOSAS camp. His analogy makes more sense than the extreme tightrope analogy that he disagrees with.

Take a look at the title of this thread.

Salvation Not Possible Without Works

What is being said in that statement? It can be true or untrue depending on what is being MEANT by what is said.
If one is saying that it is the works themselves that save, it is wrong. If one is saying that works COMES out of a living breathing faith, it is true. Neither of those CONTRADICT each other, because both are within the limits of what the scriptures teach.

Amen! Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9); yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by works (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[newbirth]

NO! Saving Faith is what the HOLY SPIRIT does in the Heart to prepare the Soil to receive the seed (the word of GOD), remember the Parable of the Sower.

That soil has been Tilled, Fertilized, and Watered by the HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF. You are trying to ROB GOD OF HIS GLORY FOR THE SALVATION THAT IS a Free GIFT, from HIS GRACE AND MERCY, THAT HE BRINGS INTO OUR HEARTS THROUGH THE FAITH HE PUT THERE. REPENT!

Can you tell me what is the opposite of faith?

 

[SarahM777]

I was just asking that question because I've heard people in the NOSAS camp say everything from, "remaining in Christ is an extremely difficult burden that most of us will surely fail to do and the Lord will just so easily allow us to slip through His fingers," to "only a small percentage of born again Christians will become so hard hearted that they will lose faith and their salvation." I was just curious to see where you fit into these categories. The wall on a mountain with two high walls on both sides is an analogy that I heard from an Assemblies of God preacher who is in the NOSAS camp. His analogy makes more sense than the extreme tightrope analogy that he disagrees with.



Amen! Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9); yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by works (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

But take it further,and this is so simple a little CHILD can understand it. What is at the heart of it all? The heart of it all is agape LOVE not duty. Agape love is NEVER PASSIVE it is always ACTIVE. As a little child wants to please,in the same manner we try to please our Heavenly Father. Too often,way too many Christians want to make it rocket science,when it is so simple a little child can understand it.

 

[mailmandan]

But take it further,and this is so simple a little CHILD can understand it. What is at the heart of it all? The heart of it all is agape LOVE not duty. Agape love is NEVER PASSIVE it is always ACTIVE. As a little child wants to please,in the same manner we try to please our Heavenly Father. Too often,way too many Christians want to make it rocket science,when it is so simple a little child can understand it.

This is how Jesus characterized conversion in Matthew 18:3. It pictures faith as the simple, helpless, trusting, dependence of those who have no resources of their own. Like children, they have no achievements and no accomplishments to offer or commend themselves with. Jesus here is pointing to the need to have the same type of faith that little children exhibit. The most trusting people in the world are children. Children have not acquired the obstructions to faith that often come with advanced education and exposure to the philosophies of men. Christ calls us to have the same kind of trust that little children naturally have. People must become as little children in humbly recognizing their helplessness in attaining the kingdon in their own strength. We are 100% dependent on Jesus to save us. We are not be as a child that questions every act or direction of it's parent. Nor is ignorant of fruit of the Spirit. Becoming a "little child" is a heart attitude that is willing to be corrected and has the wisdom to obey and understand it.

 

[newbirth]

><>t<><

Now you are getting it! It is Heart KNOWLEDGE of HIM that SAVES, not the spiritual push-ups that are produced out of that heart knowledge. Genuine Faith involves heart knowledge, not just head knowledge. The born again (eternally alive) human spirit thinks too; and it is with the spiritual mind (that the HOLY SPIRIT brought to eternal life), that we choose to Receive Jesus Christ as LORD, submitting to HIM as MASTER (= SAVED).

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord (= SAVED), continue to live in Him, (Our Walk of Obedience produced out of that Salvation.)

Always saved by grace through faith. First act of faith be faithful, same as believe first act believing but it does not stop there so weather it is faith or belief to continue therein results in action. Starts in the heart results in action.Christ already did the saving part he is showing us how to receive and endure to inherit.

 

[SeaBass]

Seabass, you almost got that statement 100% right, you only need to let go of those presuppositions a little bit more, and state it:

Genuine faith produces obedient works.

COME, GOD is calling you.

So faith only that has no works is not genuine.

 

[VCO]

Originally Posted by SeaBass

But this does not change the fact that without "doing" one is not a friend of Christ, no right to tree of life and cannot enter into the city, is not of God, is not righteous, will not abide forever, cannot come to the light, will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

SeaBass, I would agree with you on much of this, but the doing part of salvation is in the present sanctification of the believer. I would clarify it in the same way Paul clarifies salvation in Rom 8:30 predestined - called - justified - glorified. Notice that sanctification is not mentioned here. There is a present day working out of our sanctification that will reap all the rewards and lifestyle you mentioned above. We will be a friend of Christ, we will have the reward of the right to eat the tree of life, of entering the city, the rewards mentioned in Revelation, which phrases are need to be understood as in some cases euphemistic, that is they only give a part of the picture.

We will also have all the marks of fellowship from 1 John, we will be of God, be righteous, abide forever, come to the light. This is not initial salvation/justification, 1 John speaks of completed joy and extended fellowship with God, these are marks of continued faith in God and continued sanctification, a progress away from sin and towards holiness.

And the idea of entering the kingdom of heaven from Matt. 7 is an awesome picture of living out kingdom living now. I believe it very much may mean the same as the wise man building his house upon the rock, entering the kingdom is a metaphor for actually living out the kingdom principles now in this life, which will bring reward in the next life.

You are putting the emphasis on dragging down GOD's Standard to what man can do, rather than on what HE DID, just like the Pharisees did.

In reality we cannot ever live up to GOD's Standard of Perfection, to earn Salvation. WE ALL FALL SHORT!


Romans 3:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.


Paul started out, having been a member of the Sanhedrin, thinking He could live up to GOD's Standard.

LOOK what He said when the HOLY SPIRIT made him aware that HE COULD NOT live up to GOD's Standard.


Romans 7:13-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, did what is good cause my death? Absolutely not! On the contrary, sin, in order to be recognized as sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that through the commandment, sin might become sinful beyond measure.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.

When you try to put "what man can do" as the focal point, YOU HAVE LOWERED THE STANDARDS OF GOD, and create all kinds of contradictions, and you are pretending to make HIS FREE GIFT OF GRACE, something you can earn.

When you come to the realization that GOD's standards are TOO HIGH for any man to live up to; it drives us to our knees crying out for a SAVIOR, and a willing surrender to HIM as LORD and MASTER. THEN YOU ARE SET FREE OF SIN's CONTROL (SAVED), and the struggle to earn one's Salvation; because of what HE DID; NOT because of what we can DO.

The good news, however, is with the HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF IN YOU, you now have the power to do what you could not. Because the Spirit of CHRIST is in us empowering us to say NO to the temptation to sin; and YES to GOD's desire for us to do good. NOW when Paul realized that TRUTH, did he claim for himself the credit for doing good; or did Paul give all the GLORY TO CHRIST.

Galatians 2:20 (GW)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live I live by believing in God's Son, who loved me and took the punishment for my sins.

It is a hard thing at first to totally let go, and let HIM DO IT THROUGH YOU, but it will get easier, as we learn to GIVE HIM ALL THE GLORY.

 

[SeaBass]

YES but OUR ROLE comes AFTER WE ARE SAVED by GOD's free gift Salvation by GRACE:

Romans 4:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.

Acts 2:40--------- {If you truly are a saved Child of GOD, you will have nothing to do with this crooked generation.}

1 Tim 4:16------- {Genuine saved Children of GOD persist in guarding their lifestyle and doctrinal teachings. Ultimately only GOD does the saving, via the Holy Spirit IN US.}

Phil 2:12--------- "..work out your own salvation..." { If you were genuinely SAVED, you will act like a Child of GOD! }

1 Pet 1:22--------Those who WERE GENUINELY SAVED, will have this characteristic produced in them, because of that genuine Salvation: "Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth..."

Those verses point out one has a role in becoming saved and/or remaining saved.

 

[VCO]

So faith only that has no works is not genuine.

Correct, however do not lose site of the FACT that the seed of FAITH SAVED US purely by HIS GRACE, and then it will produce a crop of good works if it was genuine.


Ephesians 2:8-10 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith. ( SAVED ) And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, ( SAVED before we do anything. )
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. ( SAVED - for the purpose of producing good works motivated purely out of Love for GOD, from that genuine faith. )
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ( SAVED and BORN AGAIN ) for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[VCO]

Those verses point out one has a role in becoming saved and/or remaining saved.

No, they point our that Our Christian Walk with Christ, is not how we get saved, but rather what we do because we are SAVED.

 

[SeaBass]

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but his work did prove or manifest the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous." Works bear out the justification that comes by faith (Romans 5:1)

Abraham was not saved by works. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

Paul uses the term justified to refer to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show and thus prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do (James 2:14-24). James is discussing the proof of faith, not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God.

1) Gen 15:6 does not say "Abraham believed only in the Lord" The word "only" is not in the text, is is ADDED to the verse.


2) adding the word "only" to Gen 15:6 negates, ignores the obedience the faith of Abraham had in Genesis chapters 12-14 that included his work in leaving his house, land and kindred and building altars in worshiping God.


3) For anyone to have Abraham saved by "belief only" in Gen 15:6 implies prior to Gen 15:6 Abraham was a lost, unforgiven reprobate, which is not to be found in the contexts of Genesis chapters 12- 15:5. In Gen 15:1 God says to Abram " Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." These are not words that would be said to a lost, unforgiven reprobate. Clearly Abraham was already in a saved position prior to Gen 15:6. He could not have disobeyed God in Gen 12:1-3 and be saved.


4) both Paul and James quote Gen 15:6, Paul in Rom 4:3 and James in James 2:23. Neither Paul nor James say Abraham was saved by "belief only", James, [after quoting Gen 15:6 in James 2:23] says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James is clearly attaching obedience to Abrahams' faith of Gen 15:6 saying Abraham did NOT have faith only.

 

[SeaBass]

><>t<><

Now you are getting it! It is Heart KNOWLEDGE of HIM that SAVES, not the spiritual push-ups that are produced out of that heart knowledge. Genuine Faith involves heart knowledge, not just head knowledge. The born again (eternally alive) human spirit thinks too; and it is with the spiritual mind (that the HOLY SPIRIT brought to eternal life), that we choose to Receive Jesus Christ as LORD, submitting to HIM as MASTER (= SAVED).

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord (= SAVED), continue to live in Him, (Our Walk of Obedience produced out of that Salvation.)

I never said "heart knowledge" saves nor does the bible teach that.

The word of the Holy Spirit, "the seed", is implanted in ones heart upon hearing the word (Rom 10:17) and depending upon the "soil" of the heart that seed either grows or dies not putting forth roots. Those that believe the word act upon it. No one can hear the word of God and do nothing yet become a Christian. That seed, the word requires a change in the person and that change is not a mere mental ascent of the mind.