Elizabeth I just want to make sure the op gets the answer OK.....
Does water baptism save us.... NO!
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Elizabeth I just want to make sure the op gets the answer OK.....
Does water baptism save us.... NO!
One is saved through faith IN CHRIST alone and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Good works follow as the fruit of salvation but never the root. Good works do not follow a dead faith (James 2:14-20). The Bible tells us how we can know we are saved.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
How many of you understand the WHY we are to be baptized in water? How many actually understand why the apostles could say what they said about baptism? The water symbolizes something. John points to it.
It is the WHY they could say these things
Acts 2
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 6
3-4 Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Galatians 3
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Do we ever get what the WATER symbolizes?
John 19
31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”[c]37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”[d]
Jesus did NOT just shed blood but He also shed WATER. Both are part of His death. The water in baptism is symbolic of His shed water. It is His shed WATER that washes us clean. It is the why they can say all those things about baptism,because it is far more then just getting wet.
It is the WHY they could say these things
Acts 2
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 6
3-4 Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Galatians 3
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Do we ever get what the WATER symbolizes?
John 19
31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”[c]37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”[d]
Jesus did NOT just shed blood but He also shed WATER. Both are part of His death. The water in baptism is symbolic of His shed water. It is His shed WATER that washes us clean. It is the why they can say all those things about baptism,because it is far more then just getting wet.
N
nelsonr
Guest
Good insight, Sarah! You gave me an idea for a new thread: Jesus Christ- the fountain of life.
It is truly amazing that the two things Jesus told us to do in baptism and the Lord's supper BOTH point to His death. And the sad part is that many want to take out any working of the Holy Spirit in baptism. For sure I can't bury myself with Christ in baptism. That can ONLY be a work of the Holy Spirit. I can't wash away my sins in baptism,that is a working of the Holy Spirit. How then can one really say that it is JUST an outward sign of an inward change? That doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Yes, believing unto salvation is continuous and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root and does not continue. From beginning (have been saved through faith - Ephesians 2:8) to end (receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls - 1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works. We are not merely lost unbelievers on probation at the beginning of our faith. We really HAVE BEEN saved through faith at the beginning and continue to remain saved in the present through faith and are still saved at the end through faith.
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. How many who are justified will not be glorified? What kind of faith withers away? Faith that is firmly rooted and established in Christ or shallow temporary faith that has no root?
I'm not confused. Prior to my conversion years ago I was confused because I trusted in my works to save me.
The Gospel is the good news of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES (Romans 1:16). If that is NOT in your understanding of scripture, you have missed the Gospel completely. Don't confuse ongoing Sanctification with the Gospel.
2 Corinthians 1:10 - who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us.
It's called ongoing Sanctification.
I never claimed to be saved because I once believed but don't anymore. What kind of superficial belief is that? Saving belief is firmly rooted and established in Christ, produces fruit and continues, and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, and does not continue.
No, Satan does not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and is not saved (Acts 16:31). Satan is not trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption for salvation (Romans 1:16).
The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Have you received it through faith or are you trying to receive it by works?
I have accepted His offer. You don't work for and earn a free gift. You accept it.
When James says faith only, he is talking about an empty profession of faith that demonstrates by the lack of works that it's a dead faith (James 2:14-24). Not to be confused with salvation that is through faith in Christ alone and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). A living faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works. 1 Corinthians 1:8 - He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Works salvationists are usually obsessed with the doctrine of losing salvation and refer to remaining faithful as maintaining your salvation by works.
I saw the word BELIEVE. What other conditions are you trying to add to BELIEVE in 1 John 5:13; Ephesians 1:13; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4? So you don't believe that we have been saved through faith in the past with ongoing present results? Believers remain lost and on probation until they are finally saved in the future? Absolutely not.
When do believers start believing in Christ? In the past or not until the future? Who knows they have eternal life?
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. If it were not for the Lord, I never would have believed in the first place and would not continue to believe either. I don't dismiss warnings and I don't dismiss the power of God either.
How do you define faith in the first place? You need to worry more about what it means to be saved through faith in the first place than can we lose faith in the future.
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I wholeheartedly agree with you!
Unfortunately, baptism has fallen into a sort of formality, a religious ceremony, another "bureaucratical" thing that a christian must do, when in reality, baptism is the real and mysterious work of the Holy Spirit, like you said.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Ask God. He has the power. Or do you deny he has the power to immerse you into his death burial and Christ?
Who else has the power to do this? Your priest?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes he was. He was the one who introduced the new. But the old had not yet been done away, The cross is what did away the Old.
That why the pharisees were questioning him, As a priest, he had the right to baptize. But he was supposed to be baptizing levites for the priesthood. Not everyone.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
There can be no faith if their is no repentance. If one has not repented, they are still carnal (self motivated) To focus solely on God takes true repentance.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Because they are two different events.
Baptism of the HS is a spiritual baptism which occures at the moment of salvation. Water does not need to be involved.
Water baptism and the Lords supper are teaching tools, and acts of obedience. Which remind us of what CHrist DID for us the moment we are saved.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes it is. But not the baptism in water. People want to add the physical thing seen to the spiritual. and mix them together. Faith is not in things seen, But things unseen.
People placing their faith in something seen, in something they do. trust self. Not God
Why do you not have a problem with the methods that God has chosen to work through on salvation IE Faith alone,but yet you seem to have a problem with God choosing the method by which we are cleansed,and buried with Christ,using water which the Bible plainly shows is also involved with Jesus death? The Holy Spirit DOES NOT symbolize Jesus death but WATER does.
mailmandanm,
As to what kind of faith fails, lots of different kinds, scripture gives examples of them.
How one can read scripture and not recognize that an unbeliever cannot be cast OUT of being an unbeliever. But when using OSAS glasses, the obvious becomes clouded.
A true statement except that there are no guarantees that every believer at the beginning remains. That is the point of 2/3 of the NT. There have been more beginning believers than those that ended as believers. Eternal life is all about what happens from the beginning to the end.
Paul is not addressing kinds of faith, nor even that one can fall away. This is a context of encourangement because they felt that God had forsaken them due to the severe persecution at that time. This is a promise from God to them, and not the other way around.
As to what kind of faith fails, lots of different kinds, scripture gives examples of them.
Well you are on the right road, it is faith that saves, but faith cannot exist without works. No works, no faith, thus no eternal life.
but there is that conditional word again, "believes". It never says believed, nor does it even hint at future guarantee. You have eternal life ONLY in the present, NOW, time. That could change tomorrow, it could change 5 years from now, but you have eternal life ONLY if one believes.
but it also depends on "believing" "believes" not believed.
Whatever you call it, it is the journey to eternal life. Sanctification stops, eternal life is precluded.
True, but most believers,as scripture clearly points out, do not continue, do not grow, do not endure to the end. Therein lies the fallacy of OSAS. It is a myth. And it also refutes the notion of instanteous salvation upon the one moment of affirmation.
this part of the gift has obligations, is conditional. If the conditions are not met, then the covenant is broken and the inheritance forfeited.
Which is why again, OSAS is a myth. One is saved through faith. If that faith lacks works, it no longer IS a living faith. God does not maintain your faith. He gives grace for YOU to do it. It is YOUR faith, and YOU have no gurantees that YOU can remain faithful. There is nothing in scripture that says God continues to grant grace to one who has lost faith, rejected him. If that was so, then faith becomes meaningless and God could just as well bypass it and declare every human being eligible for heaven, since that is what He desires.
Believes is present tense, active, continuing. If faith does not continue then obviously eternal life in the present has also discontinued. How can one say they have been saved through faith, when you still have time ahead. That through must continue to the end. Believers become lost, they become unbelievers, as the 5 foolish Virgins, the Prodigal son, only he repented before death. The parable on the talents, the Sower, unfaithful servant. The text even tells you the became "unfaithful", and was cast out with the unbelievers.
How one can read scripture and not recognize that an unbeliever cannot be cast OUT of being an unbeliever. But when using OSAS glasses, the obvious becomes clouded.
OSAS along with its attending tenets, Instant absolute eternal life, and faith only is a categorical denial of the warnings believers have from scripture.
defining faith or the definition of faith is not the discussion. It is the "through" part. The continuous part, ongoing, enduring, being faithful, NOT LOSING THAT FAITH.
Actually that is correct. The priest, who is a representative of the Bishop, the only ecclesiastical officer of scripture, also respresents Christ as His physical presence here on earth within His Body, physical body on this earth. It is ontological and it is definitely Christ who is doing the baptism here on earth with water, as He stated in John 3:5.
And the bishop has the power ONLY because Christ granted, shared HIS power, with the Church, His Body.
Wow! Talk about twisting the Word of God. Sarah where do you get these things? What is so difficult to understand? JKohn stands in the water and mentions TWO baptisms... One of water, and one of Spirit and fire... Come on how can you say they are ONE baptism or that we need two when God says in Eph 4... there is ONE BAPTISM. So which one of the two does God refer to here in Eph 4? I say the baptism of CHRIST...
Christ is NOT FOUND in water. Every baptism the apostles mentioned is NOT WATER baptism. The Apostles did NOT baptize with water after they were BAPTIZED with teh HOLY GHOST... In acts 8 it is clear they baptized with Spirit. When they prayed and laid hands on people.
This WATER that came from Jesus was shown how deep they punchered his side and they still did not break any bones. And the WATER here is not for baptism but for WITNESS on earth.... Wow! how can you know not this,,,,, look at 1 Joh 5...For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
So if you look at teh three in heafven and the three on earth what do you see is the WATER Jesus shed? Spirit is Spirit... Blood is what? God or Word? Blood is God, same soul as God. Soul is in the blood.... Then what is the WATER Jesus shed? ... the WORD.... The Truth... The LIVING WATER!!!!!
If you want to use that WATER of Jesus do not think it is h2O. it is NOT! It is Truth. It is the Word of God. it is the ONE NAME we should be baptized in... it is the Spirit of Truth, it is the Spirit baptism... And you twisted it to make it h2O Water like from a tap.. WOW! Why is this so hard to understand...
What is the LIVING WATER that jesus has to give that we will never thirst again? Wht is the LIVING WATER that will flow form the bowels of the righteous?
Please Sarah tell me what is this water in these two verses....He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
This is the WATER Jesus gave on the cross... The TRUTH/WORD of God. ONE NAME...
You make no sense at all Cobus. The water that came out of Jesus side was H2O. Go back and look at the Mosaic law and you can see that in order for the people to be cleansed it was by BOTH blood and WATER. That was a picture of Christ's death in which Christ shed BOTH blood and water. We are now cleansed by BOTH Christ's shed blood and shed water.
It is absolutely true that scripture teaches us that water and blood came from the Saviors side. It is also true that water was part of the cleansing rituals in the worship of the Jews. It was and still is the blood and the blood alone that atones for sin. The water was and is symbolic, showing on the outside what the blood has done on the inside.
Salvation follows the blood and precedes the water. Sanctification follows the water and proclaims obedience. Christ left not one jot or tittle undone. He purchased our redemption and sealed our sanctification even to our glorification when we are with Him in eternity.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
S
SunnySoul
Guest
Well...if you take different translations, they seem to say the same thing. When you have faith, it shows by your actions ! And this what Paul says...I'm no trying to take Scriptures out of its context...
James2:18
Good News Bible But someone will say, “One person has faith, another has actions.” My answer is, “Show me how anyone can have faith without actions. I will show you my faith by my actions.”
ESV But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Amplified But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
NKJV But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works.
NIV But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
"Out of" means from...it should show your faith !! If you have faith but you act like the world, it's dead faith...