Does water baptism save us

[SeaBass]

how can one tell of Him if He does not first do the things to be spoken of?

??????????

One cannot believe in what they have not heard. One cannot preach what he has not heard.

So preaching saves, Rom 10:13-15; 1 Cor 1:21

 

[SeaBass]

you need to take the reading class with alligator.

works of merit is a work you do to earn something. (Also Paul says not by works of righteousness, which would be works of obedience. so both types of works are destroyed as a means to salvation)

Your saying we must work to gain salvation. So your saying works of merit save you.

Everyone can see it but you (and alligator and caisan who also refuse to give up their works.

"not of works" of Eph 2:9 means works of merit, salvation cannot be earned by works of merit.

Yet in Rom 6 Paul is talking about OBEDIENT works that do save.

All works are not alike. Rom 10:3 Paul mentions two different works in this verse, 1) works of merit and 2) obedience/submitting to God's will. Those Jews were lost for they went about doing works of merit and were not saved for they had not submitted/obeyed the commands of God.

 

[SeaBass]

Salvation by baptism undermines the cross and therefore is demonic.

Book, chapter, verse?

1 Pet 3:21 Peter says "baptism doth also now save us...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

So water baptism has everything to do with the cross and death of Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

I need to clarify, baptism is scriptural and every believer should be baptized, but placing your faith in baptism for salvation or even sanctification is means that you do not need the Cross and that is demonic.

Baptism is scriptural > it is also commanded > it is also for the remission of sins.

So one can still be saved while being disobedient to a Divine command (sinning) and while still lost in his unremitted sins?

 

[SeaBass]

anything and I mean anything that takes you focus off the work of Christ is demonic and self righteous.

So when Christ told men to repent or perish, Lk 13:3,5; to confess or be denied, Mt 10:32,33 and be baptized or be condemned, Mk 16:16, this means those that obey Christ in repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism are being demonic and self -righteous in doing what Christ TOLD THEM TO DO?

Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
Mt 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."


Actually, doing what the Lord says to do is called RIGHTEOUSNESS by the bible.

You call it demonic and self-righteousness.

 

[Cassian]

Originally Posted by Kerry
I need to clarify, baptism is scriptural and every believer should be baptized, but placing your faith in baptism for salvation or even sanctification is means that you do not need the Cross and that is demonic.

Misunderstanding of terms again. Baptism valdates the salvation that Christ gave to us. It is the very purpose of why Christ died, was resurrected, so that He and man could be rejoined. Baptism is the validation of Christ's work and man's entrance into His Body. Baptism is a spiritual participation in that death, burial and resurrection. This is what Rom 6:3-4 is stating.
You cannot enter Christ without that experience. It is also called the "first resurrection" the spiritual awakening of a person.

 

[SeaBass]

Brother, I am not say baptism is not necessary. I said water baptism not save us.

So you say baptism is necessary, but if its not necessary to being saved, then why/what reason is water baptism necessary?

 

[SeaBass]

Butch, slow down and listen. Salvation is a free gift to all men, Righteousness is a free gift. All we have to do is accept it. At Christmas some one gives you a gift, did you earn it? did you do something to deserve it? did you you throw it back in their face or did you just accept it? That is the simplicity of the Gospel. Will we obey God's word yes, but only after we have accepted the free gift.

Jesus took upon Himself our sins and nailed them to the cross. Now by His unmerited (grace) favor whosoever shall believe (faith) in the Lord Jesus Christ and confess with His mouth( faith acted upon), they shall be saved. There is nothing you can do except to accept the work of the cross and that's it.

I got a Christmas gift. I had to do a lot of work in cutting the paper and shipping tape off the outer box and then pulling out the staples from the inner box the gift was in. Then I had to cut with a knife, then scissors the gift out of hard plastic container it was in. Broke out in a sweat trying to get that gift.

So by all the work I did, I must have earned it, right?

 

[SeaBass]

This thread is still going, and people are now repeating themselves over and over and over and over...

To be justified by faith only means that excludes repentance.
Faith is also a work if you think about it.
I think a few people here don't really understand what "works" are.

That's why you have to repeat it over and over and over and over...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why do you not have a problem with the methods that God has chosen to work through on salvation IE Faith alone,but yet you seem to have a problem with God choosing the method by which we are cleansed,and buried with Christ,using water which the Bible plainly shows is also involved with Jesus death? The Holy Spirit DOES NOT symbolize Jesus death but WATER does.

Why do I have a problem with it? Because it is no different than a jew trying to add circumcision to the Gospel of Christ. Both represent being cleansed or made clean.

I have a problem with it because it add works to grace. Water SYMBOLISES it yes. But the HS actually IMMERSES US into it. Huge difference. That is what baptism of the spirit is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually that is correct. The priest, who is a representative of the Bishop, the only ecclesiastical officer of scripture, also respresents Christ as His physical presence here on earth within His Body, physical body on this earth. It is ontological and it is definitely Christ who is doing the baptism here on earth with water, as He stated in John 3:5.
And the bishop has the power ONLY because Christ granted, shared HIS power, with the Church, His Body.

Oh Ok. So men have the power of God. So lets be like the jews and Give a priest more power than he really has. ANd yuo wonder why people call your church modern day pharisees

Thanks. Even further proof to walk away from you and have nothing to do with your doctrine or gospel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is absolutely true that scripture teaches us that water and blood came from the Saviors side. It is also true that water was part of the cleansing rituals in the worship of the Jews. It was and still is the blood and the blood alone that atones for sin. The water was and is symbolic, showing on the outside what the blood has done on the inside.

Salvation follows the blood and precedes the water. Sanctification follows the water and proclaims obedience. Christ left not one jot or tittle undone. He purchased our redemption and sealed our sanctification even to our glorification when we are with Him in eternity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

true! The water proved he was dead, He basically bled out. Thus the lie that he just passed out and woke up and walked away is defeated. Anyone who has a medical degree understands this

 

[SarahM777]

Why do I have a problem with it? Because it is no different than a jew trying to add circumcision to the Gospel of Christ. Both represent being cleansed or made clean.

I have a problem with it because it add works to grace. Water SYMBOLISES it yes. But the HS actually IMMERSES US into it. Huge difference. That is what baptism of the spirit is.

So are you saying that it is OK NOT TO OBEY CHRIST? The Bible tells us WHY we are do it and what the Holy Spirit works out in us in baptism. So in essence are you saying you have a problem with OBEYING a commandment? Are you saying you have a problem with Jesus telling us IF YOU LOVE Him you WILL KEEP and Obey His Commands? The disciples very well understood that Jesus plainly meant water baptism,why do you think they kept baptizing in water? Were they doing it for their health or were they following Jesus command?

 

[SunnySoul]

Oh and I wanted to apologize....nobody noticed OBVISOULY but this is actually JAMES that speaks in James...not Paul

Oops on me!

 

[Butch5]

obedience to what?

Christ's commands.

 

[Alligator]

Ephesians 2.9

Ephesians 2.10

You and I both deny that faith (which remains alone - barren of works) will save because this is a dead faith. James addresses this. In James 2:14, we read of one who "says he has faith" but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. A dead faith. Where is the proof that it is alive? I will show you my faith by my works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root.

So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. So to claim to have faith yet have no works to confirm it demonstrates we have a dead faith, not a living faith. Dead faith is an insult to Christ and so is works salvation.

Adding works as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us is an insult as well! Like it or not, Jesus never said whoever is not water baptized will be condemned, but He clearly said whoever does not believe is condemned already. Salvation is signified, yet not procured by water baptism. You confuse the symbol with the reality.

L
We can go back and forth on this I forever, but James 2:24 still says we are justified by works and not by faith only. Faith without works is dead and cannot save, Therefore, works are necessary as part of the salvation plan. I don't know how anyone can make it more straightforward than that. You cannot take works out of the equation because if you do we're back to a dead faith which does not save again.
You accuse me of adding to God's word, but the way I see it you are taking away from His word. But again, we can argue this all night and never get anywhere.

 

[Butch5]

The topic is Does water baptism save us?

Like I said, baptism or immersion in the name of Father Son and Holy spirit save us.

When people believe and invite Jesus in his heart it automatically he is immerse or baptize in the name of Father Son and Holy spirit, because Holy spirit is dwell in him. so He is already baptize and save, even not go to water baptism which just a symbol.
This real baptism must prove by it fruit. in the sense that after person baptized by the Father Son and Holy spirit his life will change. He become new creation, born again in the spirit.

Please show me anywhere in the Scriptures that you see anything like what you've said here. One isn't baptized until he goes into the water. Jesus set the example, He went into the water and was baptized. Upon coming out of the water the Holy Spirit descended on Him. This idea that you get the Holy Spirit when you believe is not taught in the Scriptures. Notice the words of the apostle Paul.

[SUP]12[/SUP] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. {trusted: or, hoped}
[SUP]13[/SUP] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

(Eph 1:12-13 KJV)

Notice he said, "after" you believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit, not when you believed. Likewise Peter said,



[SUP]38[/SUP] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(Act 2:38 KJV)

repent and believe and you shall receive. Receive is in the future tense.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So are you saying that it is OK NOT TO OBEY CHRIST?

Why do people keep saying this? What does this have to do with what God does at the moment of faith?

The Bible tells us WHY we are do it and what the Holy Spirit works out in us in baptism.

no,

the bible tells us what the HS does in HIS baptism.

and tells us we should allow ourselves to be baptized. in obedience to the command of God. (as well as many many other commands which we should also do)

two different events. So in essence are you saying you have a problem with OBEYING a commandment?

do not come in here and make outlandish claims, when if you have read what people say you would understand NO ONE IS SAYING THIS. This excuse and argument gets seriously old. This same excuse was used against christ. And Christ never said we should not obey the commands of God. Neither are we!

Are you saying you have a problem with Jesus telling us IF YOU LOVE Him you WILL KEEP and Obey His Commands? The disciples very well understood that Jesus plainly meant water baptism,why do you think they kept baptizing in water? Were they doing it for their health or were they following Jesus command?

They also understood what he meant when he said he would baptize with the spirit. And they also understood what truly cleansed themselves and all of us.

They also taught we are to obey the Lords supper. and gather together, and stop sexual immorality, and MANY MANY other things. Are you claiming we must obey all of them also to be saved? If you going to say one work must be obeyed, You better obey them all.

Now if you going to come in here making false claims about people saying it is ok not to obey, Or we do not have to obey. Then don't bother. Making false accusations is not supporting your cause.

 

[posthuman]

??????????

One cannot believe in what they have not heard. One cannot preach what he has not heard.

So preaching saves, Rom 10:13-15; 1 Cor 1:21

preaching does not save.

God saves us through Christ His Son and the finished work of His grace.

if preaching saved, Steven would have been received with the right hand of fellowship instead of stoned to death.

let's keep the glory pointed at God alone! God alone saves!

 

[SarahM777]

Why do people keep saying this? What does this have to do with what God does at the moment of faith?



no,

the bible tells us what the HS does in HIS baptism.

and tells us we should allow ourselves to be baptized. in obedience to the command of God. (as well as many many other commands which we should also do)



do not come in here and make outlandish claims, when if you have read what people say you would understand NO ONE IS SAYING THIS. This excuse and argument gets seriously old. This same excuse was used against christ. And Christ never said we should not obey the commands of God. Neither are we!



They also understood what he meant when he said he would baptize with the spirit. And they also understood what truly cleansed themselves and all of us.

They also taught we are to obey the Lords supper. and gather together, and stop sexual immorality, and MANY MANY other things. Are you claiming we must obey all of them also to be saved? If you going to say one work must be obeyed, You better obey them all.

Now if you going to come in here making false claims about people saying it is ok not to obey, Or we do not have to obey. Then don't bother. Making false accusations is not supporting your cause.

Eg,

You keep making it sound like if one obeys Jesus command to be water baptized it is WORKS FOR SALVATION. It comes across that way. If that is NOT what then please explain what you are saying better. By the way I DID NOT SAY THAT baptism is a work for salvation. (Take in a look in the mirror because you keep accusing others of saying things they did not say)

By the way if you actually would read,what I actually said is that it is faith first,which leads to works,by the way is the way the scriptures plainly put it. Faith in the Bible is ACTIVE not passive. Agape love is ACTIVE not passive. You can NOT find it in the Bible that those are PASSIVE. And if they are not active they are DEAD.