Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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Yes, salvation is not the same thing as eternal life. In some contexts eteral life is also mentioned as salvation. this is the problem you all have with works as well.
Here is the sequence. Christ saved all mankind from death and sin. Every single human being was saved by grace, nothing of man whatsoever. When Paul is speaking of works of the law, this is the salvation that cannot be done by works. How can man save himself from death and sin.
However, Christ saved the world from death and sin, in other words, the fall of man, to fulful the reason He created man in the first place which was to have a man perfect himself and to live eternally with Him.
Eternal life is something each man obtains through faith by doing the works of righteouness. Works of faith.
Two totally different things.
so, part of your answer is that all men were given eternal existence (LIFE) otherwise there could not be a heaven or hell.
the other answer to your question, those that do not believe and work out their salvation is hell, Those that believe and do work out their salvation, (obtaining eternal life) will receive that eternal life at the end.
Most of you are consistantly confused between what Christ did, and man's response and God's purpose by having man respond positively and not negatively.
For example, several in this post have stated quite emphatically that they trust in the work of Christ in saving me and He did it all, so I don't need to do anything.
This means he is in the same place as an unbeliever, because all men, even when they don't believe, still have this gift of salvation. It is also the same static condition of Satan, He definitely believes Christ defeated him.
The reason Christ did this, was to overcome death and sin for mankind, so that He and man could get back to the business of doing what man was created to do, To be perfected and to obtain eternal life with Christ/God.
When one says they don't need to work, which is true, but then the consequences is hell as well. Man attains/obtains eternal life by working mutually with God through faith that got us into an acceptable position, being IN Christ.
Here is the sequence. Christ saved all mankind from death and sin. Every single human being was saved by grace, nothing of man whatsoever. When Paul is speaking of works of the law, this is the salvation that cannot be done by works. How can man save himself from death and sin.
However, Christ saved the world from death and sin, in other words, the fall of man, to fulful the reason He created man in the first place which was to have a man perfect himself and to live eternally with Him.
Eternal life is something each man obtains through faith by doing the works of righteouness. Works of faith.
Two totally different things.
so, part of your answer is that all men were given eternal existence (LIFE) otherwise there could not be a heaven or hell.
the other answer to your question, those that do not believe and work out their salvation is hell, Those that believe and do work out their salvation, (obtaining eternal life) will receive that eternal life at the end.
Most of you are consistantly confused between what Christ did, and man's response and God's purpose by having man respond positively and not negatively.
For example, several in this post have stated quite emphatically that they trust in the work of Christ in saving me and He did it all, so I don't need to do anything.
This means he is in the same place as an unbeliever, because all men, even when they don't believe, still have this gift of salvation. It is also the same static condition of Satan, He definitely believes Christ defeated him.
The reason Christ did this, was to overcome death and sin for mankind, so that He and man could get back to the business of doing what man was created to do, To be perfected and to obtain eternal life with Christ/God.
When one says they don't need to work, which is true, but then the consequences is hell as well. Man attains/obtains eternal life by working mutually with God through faith that got us into an acceptable position, being IN Christ.
I don't think you will get an answer because they do not understand the question.
It is a strange contradiction of their interpretation, juxaposed against scripture that all men have been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit BEFORE one believes. Thus all men are by default IN Christ and must fall out which these same persons have been extolling the idea that a believer cannot fall from being IN Christ.
I think this happens when one creates little boxes of ideas, and the boxes don't need to align and thus when juxaposed against scripture it makes no sense and is quite contradictory.
It is a strange contradiction of their interpretation, juxaposed against scripture that all men have been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit BEFORE one believes. Thus all men are by default IN Christ and must fall out which these same persons have been extolling the idea that a believer cannot fall from being IN Christ.
I think this happens when one creates little boxes of ideas, and the boxes don't need to align and thus when juxaposed against scripture it makes no sense and is quite contradictory.
They want man to have no role in his own salvation, 0% and God have 100%. So they have God responsible for all that are saved, which is what they want and understand. But their problem is, that also means God is 100% responsible for those that are lost, which they do not want and do not or refuse to understand. (Some hard core Calvinists have no problem putting fault and blame upon God for the lost > savdbygrace)
S
I think what you fail to grasp is that when god set the planets in motion he knew where they would be at every point in the future from whence he created them. He didn't need to tell them where to be because they would be where they would be. It is the same with man and the choices that he makes. Those that are saved by grace have as works as a symptom of the saved inner state. So...in a sense you can blame God for the lost souls because they would be what they would be from the beginning of creation. What you are doing is nothing more than doubting Gods ability to make things for His own purpose. He is God and does not care if you blame him for anything.
I have a role in my relationship to Christ and that is not your place to intervene.
I have a role in my relationship to Christ and that is not your place to intervene.
K
We are so gullible, the works that we do are the fruit of the Spirit as our faith is placed in the work of Christ. We would not do what we do unless our faith was placed in the cross. Before we came to the cross we rolled in sin and enjoyed sin and preached our sin. But when we knelt at the cross we abhorred our sin, hated sin and wanted nothing to do with sin. Why what changed. This was an immediate effect days before you got baptized am I wrong or right.
The problem with your view is that all men were saved by Grace. But not all men were granted eternal life. God created Adam with a free will and with a rational soul. It was God's purpose that man would work with God in this creation, freely, through love and obedience. Adam was not given immortality, but needed to attain immortality. That purpose has never changed and every man will give an account of that free choice.
S
You are right. God is working His purpose in each person who loves him. King David is the example for our plight. We sin, we fail we repent and sometimes it takes years to undo the damage our sin creates (as was the case with David) but it doesn't mean we are not seeking God heart and that we are not going to be with Jesus when we die.
L
This is a little strange - how did Christ "save" all mankind from death - this idea is not found in scripture.
It could be claimed that this and a few other scriptures could establish the claim yet it and other scriptures need to be taken into consideration:
(1 John 2:2 KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Let's look at some of Paul's statements:
(1 Cor 15:22 KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(1 Cor 15:23 KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I've seen the above argument used by the "universal salvation army" to prove that all are saved while ignoring the fact that Paul also stated:
(Rom 8:9 KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
I've yet to see any scripture that states any and all people were given the holy spirit at Pentecost and beyond
Paul further states that is in belief that a person is made alive:
(Eph 2:5 KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
(Eph 2:6 KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
The effect of Christ was to give life to as many as receive him thus restoring a person to a relationship with God as Adam had before his "death" in the day that he ate of the fruit.
It could be claimed that this and a few other scriptures could establish the claim yet it and other scriptures need to be taken into consideration:
(1 John 2:2 KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Let's look at some of Paul's statements:
(1 Cor 15:22 KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(1 Cor 15:23 KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I've seen the above argument used by the "universal salvation army" to prove that all are saved while ignoring the fact that Paul also stated:
(Rom 8:9 KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
I've yet to see any scripture that states any and all people were given the holy spirit at Pentecost and beyond
Paul further states that is in belief that a person is made alive:
(Eph 2:5 KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
(Eph 2:6 KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
The effect of Christ was to give life to as many as receive him thus restoring a person to a relationship with God as Adam had before his "death" in the day that he ate of the fruit.
Larry_Stotle,
Such confusion.
Let us take it from the beginning. Obviously after reading your post you also cannot separate what Christ did with man's free response to that Gift.
so, Man was created to be in communion with God for an eternity. God created Adam good, not perfect. Adam was to work with God to perfect himself as a human being to attain immortality. He failed in that vocation, which everyone seems to understand so far.
However, the sin of Adam was condemned by death. Dust to Dust Gen 3:19. Satan took man captive through his power of death. Decay, corruption and ultimate death would be the lot of man and the world. Everything in God's creation would be disolved by death.
In Rom 5:12 Paul summarizes that death again. States that the condemnation of death was passed to all men.
All men sin because they are mortal. I Cor 15:56 states that the sting of death is sih.
So, now man has lost life, He no longer has an eternal existence. Man will simply live a biological life of struggle to survive but will eventual die which would be permanant, dust to dust Gen 3:19.
Then Paul in Rom 5:15 states that salvation will be a Gift. That salvation was life, vs 18 given to all men. The greatest problem man had was loss of life and Christ restored life to all men. How did He do it. By His Incarnation, He assumed our fallen human nature, and by His owh resurrection raised that human nature to life, to an eternal existence again. Other texts that support it, Heb 2:14-17, Heb 2:9, Rom 11:32, Rom 3:23-25, Rom 5:6-10, II Cor 5;18-19, II Tim 1:10, John 6:39, I Cor 15:12-22. I Cor 15:53, John 4:42, I John 4:14, Acts 24:15, Rev 20:11-13.
These are just some to show the salvific content of Christ's Incarnation and resurrection.
As to sin, Christ became the perfect sacrifice also for sin. He atoned for the sin of the world, I John 2:2. Without the resurrection the sacrifice would be moot.
This is the great Gift of salvation from death and sin that Christ did for us and gave it as a Gift to the world. Without it there would be no eternity. There would still be no reason for God to have a relationship with man without the resurrection.
For those that desire to be in union with Christ, He requires that we simply believe that He is the Christ, the ONE that saved us from death and sin. That is known as justification by faith. OUr faith makes us acceptable to God, to be put into a correct relationship. If we desire to be united with Christ baptism is required, Baptism by water and the Spirit enable one to enter into Christ. It restores or regenerates the lost union that Adam/man was to have with God.
Now, the work of faith, if we remain faithful will attain eternal life. life with Christ for eternity.
some other corrections.... This is mankind being given life, eternal existance. Has nothing do with faith yet. The purpose is summed in vs 8 after Paul makes the transition to only believers in vs 6.
Unless you believe Christ was also dead in sins and trespasses. Some of you are so blinded by your theories that you do not even read correctly, or carefully enough.
This is the purpose of why Christ saved the world from death and sin, so that man could choose whether spiritually he would walk with Christ or not walk with Him.
NOt quite correct. He gave life to all men, this is physical life, exitence. Eternal life as used most often is always the spiritual relationship we have with Christ and that is granted by faith, and is attained by being faithful to the end.
That should help straighten out your understanding of scripture. Your whole view essentially bypasses the Work of Christ and His Incarnation. You move it to being the relationship only.
Such confusion.
Let us take it from the beginning. Obviously after reading your post you also cannot separate what Christ did with man's free response to that Gift.
so, Man was created to be in communion with God for an eternity. God created Adam good, not perfect. Adam was to work with God to perfect himself as a human being to attain immortality. He failed in that vocation, which everyone seems to understand so far.
However, the sin of Adam was condemned by death. Dust to Dust Gen 3:19. Satan took man captive through his power of death. Decay, corruption and ultimate death would be the lot of man and the world. Everything in God's creation would be disolved by death.
In Rom 5:12 Paul summarizes that death again. States that the condemnation of death was passed to all men.
All men sin because they are mortal. I Cor 15:56 states that the sting of death is sih.
So, now man has lost life, He no longer has an eternal existence. Man will simply live a biological life of struggle to survive but will eventual die which would be permanant, dust to dust Gen 3:19.
Then Paul in Rom 5:15 states that salvation will be a Gift. That salvation was life, vs 18 given to all men. The greatest problem man had was loss of life and Christ restored life to all men. How did He do it. By His Incarnation, He assumed our fallen human nature, and by His owh resurrection raised that human nature to life, to an eternal existence again. Other texts that support it, Heb 2:14-17, Heb 2:9, Rom 11:32, Rom 3:23-25, Rom 5:6-10, II Cor 5;18-19, II Tim 1:10, John 6:39, I Cor 15:12-22. I Cor 15:53, John 4:42, I John 4:14, Acts 24:15, Rev 20:11-13.
These are just some to show the salvific content of Christ's Incarnation and resurrection.
As to sin, Christ became the perfect sacrifice also for sin. He atoned for the sin of the world, I John 2:2. Without the resurrection the sacrifice would be moot.
This is the great Gift of salvation from death and sin that Christ did for us and gave it as a Gift to the world. Without it there would be no eternity. There would still be no reason for God to have a relationship with man without the resurrection.
For those that desire to be in union with Christ, He requires that we simply believe that He is the Christ, the ONE that saved us from death and sin. That is known as justification by faith. OUr faith makes us acceptable to God, to be put into a correct relationship. If we desire to be united with Christ baptism is required, Baptism by water and the Spirit enable one to enter into Christ. It restores or regenerates the lost union that Adam/man was to have with God.
Now, the work of faith, if we remain faithful will attain eternal life. life with Christ for eternity.
some other corrections.... This is mankind being given life, eternal existance. Has nothing do with faith yet. The purpose is summed in vs 8 after Paul makes the transition to only believers in vs 6.
Unless you believe Christ was also dead in sins and trespasses. Some of you are so blinded by your theories that you do not even read correctly, or carefully enough.
This is the purpose of why Christ saved the world from death and sin, so that man could choose whether spiritually he would walk with Christ or not walk with Him.
NOt quite correct. He gave life to all men, this is physical life, exitence. Eternal life as used most often is always the spiritual relationship we have with Christ and that is granted by faith, and is attained by being faithful to the end.
That should help straighten out your understanding of scripture. Your whole view essentially bypasses the Work of Christ and His Incarnation. You move it to being the relationship only.