Does water baptism save us

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Give me the scripture that says water baptism has ended. Remember, Paul said in Ephesians 4:4 that there is one baptism. That means there cannot be two. Show me the scripture that says water baptism is no longer in effect today. There are only two events of Holy Spirit baptism in the New Testament. It was never promised to all people for all time.
Wow. Where does this wacko philosophy come from? The Holy Spirit not promised to all who believe and for all of eternity?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,135
13,148
113
58
Amen! And also:

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. he that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:37-39

:)

Amen! John 7:38,39 fits together perfectly with John 4:10,14 and 1 Corinthians 12:13. You are certainly a blessing to me and to this forum my sister in Christ! :)
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
It's not my choice it is the word of God. Yes I choose to look at the cross for my salvation and for my sanctification. With out the cross we are nothing we are trimmings for the fire. That's why the cross is dominant in every post I make, Because I know where my salvation comes from and it is nothing I did, but what I believed. It is extremely wrong to point people to baptism for their salvation as it points them away from the cross. There is nothing wrong with baptism and every believer should be baptized as a sign of their faith in the work of the cross and nothing more than that. With out the cross, we are just a sounding brass and people making noise about nothing.
Baptism in scripture is NOT for salvation it is entrance into Christ which leads to attaining eternal life.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
A true statement.

I assume you are speaking for yourself. I leave you to God to explain why you refuse to believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I don't need to explain to HIM. He is the one that instituted baptism. I think He understands it fully. But the question, do you?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,135
13,148
113
58
You continue to ignore that Acts 10:44 that "While" does not tell us if it was at the beginning, in the middle or at the end of Peter's speaking. But Acts 11:4,14,15 tells us BY ORDER that the Holy Ghost fell on them as Peter BEGAN to speak.
You continue to ignore that Acts 10:44 says While Peter was still speaking these words (vs. 43 - whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins) the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. (not heard nothing at all). Unbelievers who don't believe the gospel upon hearing it do not receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:45 - The gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also, 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God, Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. It doesn't get any clearer than this.

Again, the evidence is overwhelming that these Gentles heard the word, believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, and were saved and a part of the body of Christ before water baptism.

So when the HG fell upon Cornelius, he had not heard the saving "words" (gospel), Acts 11:14, he had not "worked righteousness" and accepted with God, verse 35, had not had his sins remitted by God in water baptism, v47,48.
Unbelievers do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Gospel 101. If Cornelius received the Holy Spirit without hearing the gospel, then why does Acts 10:44 clearly state that the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Why does verse 45 and 47 say they received the gift of the Holy Spirit? Why does Acts 11:17 say that God gave them the same gift when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ? Why does Acts 15:8,9 say So God gave them the Holy Spirit and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith? It's time for you to quit fighting the truth and BELIEVE the gospel.

Are you trying to imply that water baptism is a work of righteousness that saved Cornelius? Titus 3:5 clearly says that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. The washing of regeneration is not water baptism. See living water in John 4:10,14; 7:38,39. In Acts 10:34-35, Peter prefaced his message with a frank admission. Up to now he had believed that God's favor was limited to the nation of Israel. Now he realized that God did not respect a man's person because of his nationality. Working righteousness is the result of an already existing faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are always the fruit of, not the root of salvation. Peter here is giving a description of a believer (Christian), (those who work righteousness) not a prerequisite to become saved by works.

Acts 11:15 Peter says Jew and Gentiles are save in "like manner" and there is just one way to be saved.
Ephesians 2:8,9 - By grace through faith and not by works. Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Not by water baptism. Only living water can cleanse the heart (John 4:10,14; 7:38,39) for those who drink into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13). Not to be confused with water baptism.

The Jews in Acts 2, the eunuch, the jailer, Lydia, etc in the book of Acts were not baptized with the Holy Spirit so that eliminates this baptism from being the one baptism of Eph 4:5 that saves.
So why didn't the Jews in Acts 2, the eunuch, the jailer, and Lydia not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Were they not believers? You are forced to twist the Scriptures in order to accommodate your water gospel. You are completely obsessed with water baptism and so were the people who attended the church of Christ that I once attended years ago.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. The shoe fits Spirit baptism, not water baptism. Plain ordinary H20 has power to place you into the body of Christ.
 
A

Alligator

Guest
Wow. Where does this wacko philosophy come from? The Holy Spirit not promised to all who believe and for all of eternity?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Please don't misrepresent what I say. I said Holy Spirit BAPTISM has ended, and not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
There is a big difference.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
How can an honest person NOT see that the context of John 3 is speaking of being born again of the Spirit - Jesus even clarifies - That which is born of the flesh is flesh - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Water does not give birth to spirit; only Spirit gives birth to spirit - God is Spirit. Water does not create the new man, the inward man, the new creature - which are all names for the new birth - only being born of the Spirit >>>>> baptized with holy Spirit >>> can do that.

If you are born again; you also have been baptized with the holy Spirit regardless if you were baptized in water or not. One is not baptized with holy Spirit without faith.

How can an honest person NOT see that 1 Co. 12:13 clearly says "for by one Spirit are we baptized into one body"? . . .

The point is - water baptism does not save us - our faith in Jesus Christ saves us. Our faith in Jesus Christ is what gets us born again of the Spirit, filled with the Spirit, baptized in living water, i.e. holy Spirit - God even uses the same 'liquid' language for holy Spirit as he would for water . . . . poured out, filled with, baptized with . . . . [sigh]

You posted "How can an honest person NOT see that the context of John 3 is speaking of being born again of the Spirit -"

BUt this is not what Jesus said "I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Why do you leave out the born of water part?


Jn 3:5-------------spirit+++++++++++++++water>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12;13--------spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>in body

Both verses say the same thing:

spirit = spirit
water = baptized
in the kingdom = in the body

This settles the issue 1 Cor 12:13 is water baptism.

Jn 4:1,2 "
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Verse 1, says Jesus baptized, but verse 2 says Jesus baptized not. This is not a contradiction for Jesus did not baptize anyone himself personally but baptized by giving disciples His authority to baptize. The Spirit baptizes the same way, He does not baptize anyone personally but baptizes by giving disciples the authority to baptize, as with Paul water baptizing some Corinthians himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16. There is one baptism, Eph 4:5 and the one baptism of 1 Cor 1:14,16 is the exact same one of 1 cor 12:13 > human administered water baptism in the name (by authority) of the Lord for remission of sins.



Eph 2:8 ---------faith>>>>>>>>>saves
1pet3:21---------baptism>>>>>>saves

Faith includes baptism since there is just one way to be saved.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
SeaBass,

Joel 2:28 is not about being baptised. It is about the Holy Spirit being poured out upon all flesh. The fact that the Holy Spirit has a specific function of influencing, or calling all men to repentance. It has to do with Eph 2:15-18 the making of ONE man.
The Apostles were baptised with fire. The flames of fire is a designation ONLY for the Apostles.
If your speaking of the JOel prophecy here it was not baptism in the first place. However, the prophecy of Joel is still being carried out. It will continue until Christ comes again.
the prophecy was for the Messianic Age which is still in progress.
"Agreed.

I disagree. Joel 2:28 is about baptism with the Holy Spirit for when the apostles were baptized with the HS in Acts 2:1-4 Peter quotes this prophecy of Joel (Acts 2:16,17) connecting the two events.

Acts 2:3,4 "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

"as fire" with 'as' being a simile, not real fire but appeared as fire when they were baptized with the HS verse 4.

In Acts 1:5 cf Acts 11:16 the apostles were promised by Christ baptism with the Holy Ghost (not promised baptism of fire) and this promised baptism with the HG was fulfilled in Acts 2:1-4.


So Joel's prophecy of baptism with the HG was fulfilled by Christ thereby making baptism with the HG obsolete for some 2000+ years.

Baptism with fire is being lost, Mt 3:11,12
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
If this baptism with the Holy Spirit is still taking place to day, then Christ was not the Messiah:


Matt 58:
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:/ Holy Spirit.

This is human/disciple administered water baptism in the name of (by authority of) the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
Baptism is a work of repentance. We are called to turn from our sin and believe in Jesus for salvation.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
You continue to ignore that Acts 10:44 says While Peter was still speaking these words (vs. 43 - whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins) the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. (not heard nothing at all). Unbelievers who don't believe the gospel upon hearing it do not receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:45 - The gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also, 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God, Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. It doesn't get any clearer than this.

Again, the evidence is overwhelming that these Gentles heard the word, believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, and were saved and a part of the body of Christ before water baptism.



Unbelievers do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Gospel 101. If Cornelius received the Holy Spirit without hearing the gospel, then why does Acts 10:44 clearly state that the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Why does verse 45 and 47 say they received the gift of the Holy Spirit? Why does Acts 11:17 say that God gave them the same gift when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ? Why does Acts 15:8,9 say So God gave them the Holy Spirit and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith? It's time for you to quit fighting the truth and BELIEVE the gospel.

Are you trying to imply that water baptism is a work of righteousness that saved Cornelius? Titus 3:5 clearly says that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. The washing of regeneration is not water baptism. See living water in John 4:10,14; 7:38,39. In Acts 10:34-35, Peter prefaced his message with a frank admission. Up to now he had believed that God's favor was limited to the nation of Israel. Now he realized that God did not respect a man's person because of his nationality. Working righteousness is the result of an already existing faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are always the fruit of, not the root of salvation. Peter here is giving a description of a believer (Christian), (those who work righteousness) not a prerequisite to become saved by works.



Ephesians 2:8,9 - By grace through faith and not by works. Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Not by water baptism. Only living water can cleanse the heart (John 4:10,14; 7:38,39) for those who drink into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13). Not to be confused with water baptism.



So why didn't the Jews in Acts 2, the eunuch, the jailer, and Lydia not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Were they not believers? You are forced to twist the Scriptures in order to accommodate your water gospel. You are completely obsessed with water baptism and so were the people who attended the church of Christ that I once attended years ago.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. The shoe fits Spirit baptism, not water baptism. Plain ordinary H20 has power to place you into the body of Christ.
Why would you take an exception and make it the rule? Your whole discourse of the baptism of Cornelius is known as the Gentile Baptism. It is considered a teaching tool of God for the Apostles to fully understand that Christ made ONE man. There will be no longer Jew and Gentile. This is not the norm and which is why Peter applies water baptism as well. The gift of the Holy Spirit is actually a Gift that follows baptism and is not the baptism itself.

But also, many of you are separating water and the Spirit. They are ALWAYS in tandem. Which is why John 3:5, Rom 6:3-4, I Cor 12:13 are all baptisms of Water and the Spirit. Titus 3:5, the washing of regeneration is also water baptism.
There is ONLY ONE baptism and that is Water and the Spirit baptism. It is stated in Eph 4:5 It is even stated in the Nicene Creed as ONLY one Baptism.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
You continue to ignore that Acts 10:44 says While Peter was still speaking these words (vs. 43 - whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins) the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. (not heard nothing at all). Unbelievers who don't believe the gospel upon hearing it do not receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:45 - The gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also, 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God, Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. It doesn't get any clearer than this.

Again, the evidence is overwhelming that these Gentles heard the word, believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, and were saved and a part of the body of Christ before water baptism.



Unbelievers do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Gospel 101. If Cornelius received the Holy Spirit without hearing the gospel, then why does Acts 10:44 clearly state that the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Why does verse 45 and 47 say they received the gift of the Holy Spirit? Why does Acts 11:17 say that God gave them the same gift when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ? Why does Acts 15:8,9 say So God gave them the Holy Spirit and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith? It's time for you to quit fighting the truth and BELIEVE the gospel.

Are you trying to imply that water baptism is a work of righteousness that saved Cornelius? Titus 3:5 clearly says that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. The washing of regeneration is not water baptism. See living water in John 4:10,14; 7:38,39. In Acts 10:34-35, Peter prefaced his message with a frank admission. Up to now he had believed that God's favor was limited to the nation of Israel. Now he realized that God did not respect a man's person because of his nationality. Working righteousness is the result of an already existing faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are always the fruit of, not the root of salvation. Peter here is giving a description of a believer (Christian), (those who work righteousness) not a prerequisite to become saved by works.



Ephesians 2:8,9 - By grace through faith and not by works. Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Not by water baptism. Only living water can cleanse the heart (John 4:10,14; 7:38,39) for those who drink into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13). Not to be confused with water baptism.



So why didn't the Jews in Acts 2, the eunuch, the jailer, and Lydia not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Were they not believers? You are forced to twist the Scriptures in order to accommodate your water gospel. You are completely obsessed with water baptism and so were the people who attended the church of Christ that I once attended years ago.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. The shoe fits Spirit baptism, not water baptism. Plain ordinary H20 has power to place you into the body of Christ.

The events are given IN ORDER in Acts 11 and not in Acts 10...."And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning."

---You have to ignore this plain language for it kills your theology.

---There is no verse that says the Holy Ghost only falls upon believers.

---
Jn 3:5----------------spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in body
Tts 3"5---------Holy Ghost++++++washing of reg>>>>>saved


It is painfully obvious all three verses are referring to water baptism. People can continue to deny it, but never refute it.

---Mk 16:16 Jesus made belief a prerequisite to being baptized. So the eunuch, Jailer or Lydia could not be water baptized if thaey did not first believe. They were never baptized with the HS but water baptized the one baptism of Eph 4:5, Christ's human administered water baptism of the great commission.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
This is human/disciple administered water baptism in the name of (by authority of) the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
By authority but not immerse Father Son and Holy Ghost?

Brother Do you believe that as son as ritual of water immersion, Jesus will be the King of the baptized?

Do you believe the Thief next to Jesus baptized. Jesus command to baptize after His resurrection, If this thief baptized, what kind of baptism he has?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,135
13,148
113
58
The events are given IN ORDER in Acts 11 and not in Acts 10...."And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning."


That does not negate Acts 10:44 - While Peter was still speaking these words (vs. 43 - whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins) the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. (not heard nothing at all).

---You have to ignore this plain language for it kills your theology.
How ironic for you to say that. It's actually the other way around.

---There is no verse that says the Holy Ghost only falls upon believers.
Show me in the Bible where unbelievers receive the Holy Spirit? You won't find it in John 7:38,39; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9; Ephesians 1:13.

Jn 3:5----------------spirit+++++++++++*living water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit+++++++++++*Spirit baptized>>>>>>>in body
Tts 3"5---------Holy Ghost++++++*washing of reg/spiritual washing/living water>>>>>saved

*Corrections made above.


It is painfully obvious all three verses are referring to water baptism. People can continue to deny it, but never refute it.
I already refuted it multiple times. You just simply refuse to believe the truth for the sake of accommodating your biased theology.

---Mk 16:16 Jesus made belief a prerequisite to being baptized.


No He didn't.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he that believeth not shall be damned. The omission of baptized with "believeth not" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. If water baptism is required for salvation, then why did Jesus Himself not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. What happened to baptism?

So the eunuch, Jailer or Lydia could not be water baptized if thaey did not first believe. They were never baptized with the HS but water baptized the one baptism of Eph 4:5, Christ's human administered water baptism of the great commission.
Believing and receiving the remission of sins precedes water baptism (Acts 10:43) and so does receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13). One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One Spirit baptized into one body. Spirit baptism.
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
peacefulbeliever,

You are correct, baptism is "being born from above". It is entrance into the Body of Christ.

It goes along with it but is a separate event. One receives the Gift ofthe Holy Spirit if and when on is baptised.

which is why it is baptism. Baptism is by water and the Spirit. Everytime baptism is mentioned or inferred as it does here it by the Holy Spirit. One cannot separate water/Spirit.
I didn't separate water and holy Spirit - John by revelation from God said - I baptize with water but there comes one after me who is mightier than I; he shall baptize with holy Spirit. Jesus himself said that we must be born of water and of Spirit and in the very next verse he clarifies - That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit - why on earth would he insert that there if it didn't have any bearing? To be born from above is to be born of the Spirit - NOT water. Yes one receives the gift of holy Spirit when they are born again - when they are born of the Spirit.
this must be an "ole wives tale" or something. This idea is unheard of until well after the reformation. It is wholly protestant and unscriptural. John 3:5 is the sine quo non definition of baptism and entrance into Christ, the "borning from above". It is water and the Spirit.
why would water need to be mentioned. It is describing what water baptism accomplishes. This whole chapter is known as the baptism chapter. again, it is describing water baptism. It is what baptism does.
I have never heard of it being called an 'ole wives tale' (are you saying that because I'm old? - LOL)

It is called reading with comprehension. This whole chapter is the new birth >>>> born again of the Spirit >>>> water baptism is NOT being born again of the Spirit. Water baptism is a symbol of sins being washed away, it is a symbol of Christ's death and resurrection. Let's see - if John baptized with water and he said that there comes one mightier than he and he will baptize with holy Spirit - wouldn't it make sense that baptism in holy Spirit is NOW the one baptism?

I thought that you understood from your first statement, but then digress to absolute contradiction of scripture.
Here is what Justin Martyr states about baptism and John3:5.
"Those who are convinced that what we teach is true and who desire to live accordingly are instructed to fast and to pray to God for the remission of all their past sins. We also pray and fast with them. Then we bring them to a place where there is water, and they are regenerated in the same manner in which we ourselves were regenerated. They then receive the washing with water in the name of God (the Father and Lord of the universe) and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. For Christ said, 'Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven"' [John 3:5]. (Justin First Apology chant 61)
I haven't contradicted any scripture - I stated in my first paragraph that John 3 is regarding the new birth - never said it had anything to do with baptism. My bible says (not man) 'he saved us through the washing of regeneration (born again/re-born which is what the Greek word means) and renewing (a renewal) of the holy Spirit.' Water doesn't do that although it symbolizes that - ONLY being baptized with holy Spirit does that.
Or Clement...
But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
John 4:10,13,23,24 If you knew the gift of God and who it is that saith to you, Give me to drink; you would have asked of him and he would have given thee living water. . . .Whosoever drinks of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. . . . the hour comes and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him. God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth - That only comes from being born again of Spirit not water.
Or Basil the Great ....
"This then is what it means to be `born again of water and Spirit': Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3, Col. 2:12-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit's presence there" (The Holy Spirit, 15:35).(375 AD)

They all categorically deny your interpretation.
"it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit's presence there" . . . . The Spirit's presence is in the water?
That which is born of the Spirit is spirit - the Spirit dwells within each believer through being born again of God - being born again from above.

So to say the Spirit's presence is in the water - isn't that symbolic?
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
SeaBass,

I disagree. Joel 2:28 is about baptism with the Holy Spirit for when the apostles were baptized with the HS in Acts 2:1-4 Peter quotes this prophecy of Joel (Acts 2:16,17) connecting the two events.
actually we are both incorrect. The homilies of the Church fathers interpret this as the coming of the Holy Spirit indwelling. They tie it to vs 39 and the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Which is different than baptism.

So Joel's prophecy of baptism with the HG was fulfilled by Christ thereby making baptism with the HG obsolete for some 2000+ years.
Joel's prophecy did not deal with baptism but the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Still in effect.
Baptism with fire is being lost, Mt 3:11,12
Some Church Fathers indicate this deals with the disciples at Pentecost, but others add that it also applies to the next verse which is the judgment at the end of time. The latter half of the Joel 2:28 as quoted in Act 2:17-21, also is a prophesy of the last day, judgement day.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
peacefulbeliever,

I didn't separate water and holy Spirit - John by revelation from God said - I baptize with water but there comes one after me who is mightier than I; he shall baptize with holy Spirit. Jesus himself said that we must be born of water and of Spirit and in the very next verse he clarifies - That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit - why on earth would he insert that there if it didn't have any bearing? To be born from above is to be born of the Spirit - NOT water. Yes one receives the gift of holy Spirit when they are born again - when they are born of the Spirit.
baptism is water and the Spirit, just as John 3:5 states and has always been believed and understood from the very beginning. It is both. NO, one is born again, which is baptism, then they receive the Holy Spirit. From the beginning the Gift of the Holy Spirit was given by anointing.

Here is a short explanation of baptism, even though Rom 6:3-4 describes it, many do not understand the meaning or use of water. Water is life. It is the central element is life. But it is also death. Man cannot live under water.
Thus in baptism we die, going down into the water to be spiritually united with Christ in His death. We live again, rising out of the water in His resurrected humanity. It is called being, "born from above"
The Didache written in late 1st century, early 2nd spells it out very well, how to baptise and what it means. As well as the citations I gave to your earlier.

I have never heard of it being called an 'ole wives tale' (are you saying that because I'm old? - LOL)
It has no reflection on you, just an idiom.

It is called reading with comprehension. This whole chapter is the new birth >>>> born again of the Spirit >>>> water baptism is NOT being born again of the Spirit. Water baptism is a symbol of sins being washed away, it is a symbol of Christ's death and resurrection. Let's see - if John baptized with water and he said that there comes one mightier than he and he will baptize with holy Spirit - wouldn't it make sense that baptism in holy Spirit is NOW the one baptism?
YOu do not read very well, since your view is wholly unknown until sometime after the Reformation. John's baptism was ONLY for the remission of sin. The NT baptism was also remission of sin, but more importantly it was the entrance into Christ as prescribed in John 3:5. Rom 6:3-4 is the description of baptism which is always water/Spirit. NT baptism is always water/Spirit.
I haven't contradicted any scripture - I stated in my first paragraph that John 3 is regarding the new birth - never said it had anything to do with baptism. My bible says (not man) 'he saved us through the washing of regeneration (born again/re-born which is what the Greek word means) and renewing (a renewal) of the holy Spirit.' Water doesn't do that although it symbolizes that - ONLY being baptized with holy Spirit does that.
then I misunderstood you since baptism is of water and the Spirit is is known as the "new birth" the regeneration of the lost union Adam had with God in the beginning. It is re-newal, re-generation of something that had once existed, namely the union Adam had and for which man was created. ONLY water/Spirit does it. Holy Spirit does nothing without the water. It is why it is called a mystery (sacrament) and why it is salvific. It is necessary for salvation.

John 4:10,13,23,24 If you knew the gift of God and who it is that saith to you, Give me to drink; you would have asked of him and he would have given thee living water. . . .Whosoever drinks of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. . . . the hour comes and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him. God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth - That only comes from being born again of Spirit not water.
It comes from neither in the sense you are using it.
This is refering to the Gift of the Holy Spirit that believers recieve by anointing. It always follows baptism, but the indwelling is not from the event of baptism.

"it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit's presence there" . . . . The Spirit's presence is in the water?
That which is born of the Spirit is spirit - the Spirit dwells within each believer through being born again of God - being born again from above.
So to say the Spirit's presence is in the water - isn't that symbolic?
The HOly Spirit is using the water to convey grace. The Spirit DOES NOT DWELL IN THE BELIEVER THROUGH BAPTISM. The indwelling is a separate gift, and is by anointing. The Church has always called it Chrismation. Being born again, is simply the entrance into a lost relationship that is being renewed.
Water is not symbolic of anything. Noah and the Ark are symbolic of baptism. The REd Sea dividing is a symbol of baptism. Water/Spirit is baptism. The only baptism the Church has ever known and understood as the norm, Eph 4:5, Nicene Creed states it. It has never changed from the beginning, has always been practiced and believed the same.

The only confusion lies with sola scripturist who are trying to get a meaning when scripture does not explain the meaning. No one of the Church had a problem with it, so the whole process, form, structure never was explained in one concise statement. But all through Scripture it can be gleaned as to what it means, the form, and purpose. Paul is not going to go into a dissertation about baptism when his readers know full well what he is speaking about.
I would surmise that sola scripturist won't get it straight over the next 500 years either, if Christ taries that long.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
I am quote from brother Cassian at #1390.

which is why it is baptism. Baptism is by water and the Spirit. Everytime baptism is mentioned or inferred as it does here it by the Holy Spirit. One cannot separate water/Spirit.


Look like brother Cassian believe that every body that went to water baptism/Immersion ritual, automatically Immerse in the Holy spirit.

In fact it is not the case. A lot of people went to water baptism ritual not bear the fruit.

If a person baptized in Holy spirit, He must bear the fruit, and change. If he was drug dealer, not anymore.

In the real life it easy to find baptized person doing drug dealer, or adulterer. I am not say that baptized person can not fall. But that person is never change at all.

Some people doing water baptism because of job, His boss is christian and he want to impress his boss.
I know a man working in the motel and he sale a drug. His boss is christian and about to fire him. Than he pretend to repent and baptized. But he still selling drug secretly.
So water baptism ritual it self not always mean Holy spirit baptism.

It depend on the individual.

In fact I believe a man must baptized with Holy spirit first than doing water baptism as a testimony.


 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
Jackson123,

Look like brother Cassian believe that every body that went to water baptism/Immersion ritual, automatically Immerse in the Holy spirit.
In fact it is not the case. A lot of people went to water baptism ritual not bear the fruit.
If a person baptized in Holy spirit, He must bear the fruit, and change. If he was drug dealer, not anymore.
Where does it say that baptism bears fruit? Faith bears fruit, is active. In fact, baptism is the first fruit of a believer. He acts upon his faith. Repentance and baptism is the result.
In the real life it easy to find baptized person doing drug dealer, or adulterer. I am not say that baptized person can not fall. But that person is never change at all.
Baptism does not guarantee anything except that one enters into Christ. You are beginning a relationship that must endure to the end in order to obtain eternal life.
Some people doing water baptism because of job, His boss is christian and he want to impress his boss.
I know a man working in the motel and he sale a drug. His boss is christian and about to fire him. Than he pretend to repent and baptized. But he still selling drug secretly.
So water baptism ritual it self not always mean Holy spirit baptism.
which is irrelevant arguement. Neither faith, repentance, baptism, or even having the Holy Spirit will prevent anyone to reject Christ at any point in their life. If he does not live up to it, it does not effect his baptism, it effects his relationship. He will have fallen from grace.
In fact I believe a man must baptized with Holy spirit first than doing water baptism as a testimony.
Since no one is baptised separately by the Spirit and water, it is irrelevant as well.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
Jackson123,

Where does it say that baptism bears fruit? Faith bears fruit, is active. In fact, baptism is the first fruit of a believer. He acts upon his faith. Repentance and baptism is the result.

Brother, Don't you said:
which is why it is baptism. Baptism is by water and the Spirit. Everytime baptism is mentioned or inferred as it does here it by the Holy Spirit. One cannot separate water/Spirit.

Isn't you believe when one doing water baptism mean spirit baptism.

What do you mean by Holy spirit? Can a man immerse in Holy spirit and not change, robber after immerse in Holy spirit stil robber, never change?




Baptism does not guarantee anything except that one enters into Christ. You are beginning a relationship that must endure to the end in order to obtain eternal life.

What do you mean by enter into Christ.

What the different between enter into Christ and abide in Christ?



which is irrelevant arguement. Neither faith, repentance, baptism, or even having the Holy Spirit will prevent anyone to reject Christ at any point in their life. If he does not live up to it, it does not effect his baptism, it effects his relationship. He will have fallen from grace.

Do you mean that a man may back slash? I am agree. but before back slash when he immerse into Holy spirit, he must bear fruit.

Since no one is baptised separately by the Spirit and water, it is irrelevant as well.

When you say no one is baptized separately by the Spirit and water mean you believe every body that doing water baptism is automatically doing Holy spirit baptism.

It mean you believe even robber without repent as long as he doing water baptism ritual mean he baptize with Holy spirit.

And baptism with Holy spirit not going to change, robber after baptism with Holy spirit still robber, Killer still killer

It's what you believe brother?