How Do We Know When the Law is for the Church?

[Atwood]

Given that the law ended at the cross.
Given that it was only for Israel.
Given that the law is one and a unity.
Given that all scripture has application for us, if not interpretation to us.
Given that the law does yet contain some universal principles, applicable to all times and peoples (like Love God and Love neighbor as self, Leviticus)
how do we know what is to be obeyed today by the Church?

How then do we distinguish the dispensational from the universal?
You don't want to sacrifice animals (dispensational).
You do want to love neighbor as self (universal).
How do we distinguish the two?

For starters, the default is that is only for Israel, this follows from its end at the cross where the Law was nailed.
How then is an exception indicated?

1) If the commandment is repeated to the Church, then it is not just for Israel.

2) If the commandment is followed by a statement that the Lord punished the heathen (not Israel) for doing the forbidden practice, it follows that the rule is universal.

Example, in Lev 18 there is a long list of sexual sins. At the end of it Israel is warned that the Lord expelled the former (heathen) nations for having done these things. Thus we conclude that those sins are sins today, sins for all people (as contrasted with eating shell fish).

3) If the commandment is based upon the nature of God, then it is for all:
" be ye holy; for I am holy."

Are there any other principles by which to distinguish the dispensational laws from the eternal principles of righteousness included in the law?

 

[crossnote]

I'm having a little difficulty in getting my pea brain around this. So help me out. A few notes.

The sexual perversions of the heathen in Lev. 18 are pretty much reiterated to Moses and then by the Apostles. Hence universal.
I would also say that part of the nature of God is faithfulness , hence for all.

Though the 613 were nailed to the cross in Christ's flesh as you stated some were instituted in the NT. I believe these no longer come to us on tablets of stone but some come on our fleshy human hearts as in 2Cor 3. I imagine it's inline with Jer 31 where the promise is that He would write His law/nature on our hearts (I believe the Church partakes spiritually on this promise to Israel). We also have in Rom 5:5 where God's love is shed abroad in our hearts.
I guess I'm having trouble seeing those 3 distinctions (though the Mosaic no longer applies) you raised, but ???

BTW, I do believe there is a NT form of the Sabbath command found in Hebrews where we are exhorted to enter into His rest.

 

[chubbena]

....3) If the commandment is based upon the nature of God, then it is for all:
"be ye holy; for I am holy."[QUOTE]
Lev 11:41-44 Every creature that moves along the ground is to be regarded as unclean; it is not to be eaten. You are not to eat any creature that moves along the ground, whether it moves on its belly or walks on all fours or on many feet; it is unclean. Do not defile yourselves by any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be made unclean by them. I am the Lord your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves along the ground.
Lev 19:1-4 Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: Be holy because I, the Lord your God, am holy. Each of you must respect your mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the Lord your God. Do not turn to idols or make metal gods for yourselves. I am the Lord your God.
Lev 20:6-7 I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people. Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the Lord your God. Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

 

[RedTent]

Given that the law ended at the cross.
Given that it was only for Israel.
Given that the law is one and a unity.
Given that all scripture has application for us, if not interpretation to us.
Given that the law does yet contain some universal principles, applicable to all times and peoples (like Love God and Love neighbor as self, Leviticus)
how do we know what is to be obeyed today by the Church? ?

The law's ability to cause eternal death was always made ineffectual by the cross, we are saved by the blood. There was even atonement by the shadow of the blood of Christ, it was always so powerful. But the law was then given to those saved for their benefit. It is a guide and help for us to live in harmony with Christ.

Psa 119:1 How happy are those whose way is blameless, who live according to the LORD's instruction! Psa 119:2 Happy are those who keep His decrees and seek Him with all their heart.

Israel was given special instruction, but it was for our benefit.

Gen 18:18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed.

That blessing is not only that Christ came from this race, but we learn about God through this race. It is NEVER just for Israel, it is for the gentiles. God gave the Jews a special mission for us.

Rom 11:11 I ask, then, have they stumbled in order to fall? Absolutely not! On the contrary, by their stumbling, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous.

When we read scripture, we are not to read is legalistically, we are to see the spiritual principle the physical explanation is showing. People throw out the 613 laws given to us because we and Christ are the temple, because we have no oxen, because our pagan governments do not burn babies to Baal, but authorize abortions instead.

All the principles even the literal expression of the spiritual still stands. We do it by putting on Christ instead of representing them literally. Israel was told to listen to God in spirit and truth, and to separate themselves from people who don't through circumcision. We are told we don't need the cutting of flesh, but we are to be circumcised. Hebrews were to keep themselves pure, and as a reminder to never eat flesh from animals that ate garbage. Now, Christ is our reminder as we put on Christ, but we are never to put garbage in our minds.

Mat_15:17 "Don't you realize that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is eliminated?

When scripture gave those directions, it wasn't for the food they ate, but the spiritual meaning of the direction.

So the law given to Israel is also for us. The law did not end with the cross, only death by the law ended at the cross. All law is to be obeyed by those who are saved by the cross so they can live in abundance of how God wanted us to live. The law wasn't given for literal obedience, but for obedience in spirit and truth.

 

[Allin]

So the law given to Israel is also for us. The law did not end with the cross, only death by the law ended at the cross. All law is to be obeyed by those who are saved by the cross so they can live in abundance of how God wanted us to live. The law wasn't given for literal obedience, but for obedience in spirit and truth.

Yep. (I'd end with just that one word, but it says my answer is too short.)

 

[Illuminated]

This a wonderful question and one that many in the church have such a hard time understanding. God's commands (or the "Law") did NOT end ever! A few were undone but those are mentioned. The rest remain. Christ did not come to undo the Law. He came to fullyfill it. Or in other words... "complete it" because it was not fully given. It's because of ignorance and lack of understanding of the Law that the modern day church has thrown it out the window. But sadly, the church is paying dearly for this. Not obeying the God's laws results in curses and these curses are clearly seen in the churches today. I know I know....... what about Gal 3:13 which says "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us"??? The "curse" that chapter is referring to is something else. In context, we need to understand what that whole chapter is talking about. It was talking against people who are trying to be made righteous/justified by the works of the Law. That whole chapter is proof that "works" does not make anybody righteous/justified. That chapter loudly says that faith is what makes us righteous/justified. When you believe in Christ (the word of God), you are righteous/justified. Thank you Lord for making it easy! So what do we do with the Law now? KEEP IT! It still works. You just aren't made righteous because of your works. Get it??

I hope I did a good job explaining this because I sometimes struggle to get out of me what is inside me.

Now for the understanding of the Law. This is where so many Christians have a hard time because a lot of it doesn't make sense or it just sounds like crazy stuff. But I will do my best to explain it. (God help me....)

I'm not gonna go through them all cuz we'll be here for a while. So I'll just pick a couple of laws that most people don't normally get. Ready? Let's go.....

Let's talk about burning sacrifices.

It sounds crazy doesn't it? Like something occultic does doesn't it? But it's so simple.

Did you know the old KJV does not contain the word cook? That's because cook is a modern word. The word that is used in old English that means to cook is burn. So when you cooked something in old English you burn it over a fire. Now for the sacrifice.... Any animal that gives it's life so we can eat it is called a sacrifice. That animal sacrificed it's life so that we can have physical life. So to burn a sacrifice in the bible (in old English) simply means to cook a animal for consumption. That's all. So when I cook deer meat on the grill, I'm burning a sacrifice. All meat eaters today who cook their own meat are burning a sacrifice. And when you come across those verses that talk about burning a sacrifice completely, that simply means (in modern English) to cook it thoroughly so that there is no red in it. Eating meat (sacrifice) that is not burned completely (under cooked) will cause health problems/sicknesses. Sickness is a curse. So if you break that law, you could end up sick/cursed. Modern man today knows the dangers of eating under cooked meat because of science. That's why warnings are printed all over restaurant menus everywhere about eating under cooked meat. But God "the all knowing" knew that thousand of years ago and through Moses told it to us so that we may have good health and be blessed not cursed. He gave these instructions to us because he loves us. God is so good and so smart too.

Hope that helps......

 

[okeyxyz]

All laws are dispensational. To some it is given to understand that the true gospels of christianity means a total abolishment of the laws of Moses. To others, it is given to still follow the definitions of Moses, believing them to be christian. Each one will be judged by whatever doctrines his conscience understands.

For me, I am 100 percent, absolute grace christian. The laws of Moses are just a shadow of the true christian doctrines. I re-interpret the law to it's perfect meanings and casting aside the false/shadowy definitions. Therefore all things in nature are permissible for me, to use for my learning, development and benefit. Yes, even things forbidden when I was under the law.

 

[p_rehbein]

I wonder why no one else ever thought of having a discussion concerning the Mosaic Laws and how they apply to todays Church before? Goodness..........

 

[john832]

I'm having a little difficulty in getting my pea brain around this. So help me out. A few notes.

The sexual perversions of the heathen in Lev. 18 are pretty much reiterated to Moses and then by the Apostles. Hence universal.
I would also say that part of the nature of God is faithfulness , hence for all.

Though the 613 were nailed to the cross in Christ's flesh as you stated some were instituted in the NT. I believe these no longer come to us on tablets of stone but some come on our fleshy human hearts as in 2Cor 3. I imagine it's inline with Jer 31 where the promise is that He would write His law/nature on our hearts (I believe the Church partakes spiritually on this promise to Israel). We also have in Rom 5:5 where God's love is shed abroad in our hearts.
I guess I'm having trouble seeing those 3 distinctions (though the Mosaic no longer applies) you raised, but ???

BTW, I do believe there is a NT form of the Sabbath command found in Hebrews where we are exhorted to enter into His rest.

And I agree...

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Word for rest here is Sabbatismos and means keeping Sabbath...

Heb 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God. - Diaglott

Literally and spiritually.

 

[john832]

Given that the law ended at the cross.
Given that it was only for Israel.
Given that the law is one and a unity.
Given that all scripture has application for us, if not interpretation to us.
Given that the law does yet contain some universal principles, applicable to all times and peoples (like Love God and Love neighbor as self, Leviticus)
how do we know what is to be obeyed today by the Church?

How then do we distinguish the dispensational from the universal?
You don't want to sacrifice animals (dispensational).
You do want to love neighbor as self (universal).
How do we distinguish the two?

For starters, the default is that is only for Israel, this follows from its end at the cross where the Law was nailed.
How then is an exception indicated?

1) If the commandment is repeated to the Church, then it is not just for Israel.

2) If the commandment is followed by a statement that the Lord punished the heathen (not Israel) for doing the forbidden practice, it follows that the rule is universal.

Example, in Lev 18 there is a long list of sexual sins. At the end of it Israel is warned that the Lord expelled the former (heathen) nations for having done these things. Thus we conclude that those sins are sins today, sins for all people (as contrasted with eating shell fish).

3) If the commandment is based upon the nature of God, then it is for all:
"be ye holy; for I am holy."

Are there any other principles by which to distinguish the dispensational laws from the eternal principles of righteousness included in the law?

Can you show me where the Bible says the Law was only for Israel?

 

[john832]

All laws are dispensational. To some it is given to understand that the true gospels of christianity means a total abolishment of the laws of Moses. To others, it is given to still follow the definitions of Moses, believing them to be christian. Each one will be judged by whatever doctrines his conscience understands.

For me, I am 100 percent, absolute grace christian. The laws of Moses are just a shadow of the true christian doctrines. I re-interpret the law to it's perfect meanings and casting aside the false/shadowy definitions. Therefore all things in nature are permissible for me, to use for my learning, development and benefit. Yes, even things forbidden when I was under the law.

When you interpret it that way you may fornicate all you wish to. Right?

 

[crossnote]

And I agree...

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Word for rest here is Sabbatismos and means keeping Sabbath...

Heb 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God. - Diaglott

Literally and spiritually.

yes and I understand the Hebrew word for rest in Genesis when God 'rested' on the 7th Day is different than the one found in the 4th Commandment.

 

[MaggieMye]

Given that the law ended at the cross. There is a difference between Mosaic Law, Levitical Law and Spiritual Law
Given that it was only for Israel. Israel WAS the church...IS the church...and we are adopted into it.
Given that the law is one and a unity. Huh?
Given that all scripture has application for us, if not interpretation to us. And so...? Where is the problem in that?
Given that the law does yet contain some universal principles, applicable to all times and peoples (like Love God and Love neighbor as self, Leviticus) "does not yet contain"? But it does. Those are spiritual laws and spiritual laws are eternal.
how do we know what is to be obeyed today by the Church? Have you READ the Gospels?? the NT?? It's right there.

How then do we distinguish the dispensational from the universal? Just what, exactly, do you mean by "universal"? And dispensational is a DOCTRINE OF MAN ...so....
You don't want to sacrifice animals (dispensational). See the last question: Sacrifices were eliminated with the FINAL sacrifice of Christ, so again...dispensationlism is a doctrine of man and a deception from satan.
You do want to love neighbor as self (universal). To love a neighbor MORE than yourself is Biblical.

How do we distinguish the two? Read the NT.

For starters, the default is that is only for Israel, this follows from its end at the cross where the Law was nailed.
How then is an exception indicated?

1) If the commandment is repeated to the Church, then it is not just for Israel. See above. There is a difference between Israel the children of God, and Israel the country/nation. Scripture tells us that not all in the nation of Israel were saved...or 'of the chruch'.

2) If the commandment is followed by a statement that the Lord punished the heathen (not Israel) for doing the forbidden practice, it follows that the rule is universal. That's OT. They did not have Christ's blood as a covering.

Example, in Lev 18 there is a long list of sexual sins. At the end of it Israel is warned that the Lord expelled the former (heathen) nations for having done these things. Thus we conclude that those sins are sins today, sins for all people (as contrasted with eating shell fish). Yes, sin is sin and the characteristic of sin has never and will never change. Sin is violation of God's love, in a variety of forms. IF repented of, the blood and Cross take care of this. We live in NT covenant, not OT. The shellfish issue is addressed in Act 10:9-15

3) If the commandment is based upon the nature of God, then it is for all:
"be ye holy; for I am holy."

Are there any other principles by which to distinguish the dispensational laws from the eternal principles of righteousness included in the law?

My question is, "why do you care so much about a dispensational and erroneous man-made doctrine"? If you read the NT, it is ALL explained therein.

 

[crossnote]

Can you show me where the Bible says the Law was only for Israel?

I think he is referring to the Mosaic Law...the 613 package deal complete with Levitical priests, Temple, dietary laws etc.

 

[john832]

Can you show me where the Bible says the Law was only for Israel?

I think he is referring to the Mosaic Law...the 613 package deal complete with Levitical priests, Temple, dietary laws etc.

Ok, then let him show me where the Law is for Israel only.

 

[crossnote]

Ok, then let him show me where the Law is for Israel only.

I hope he does. In the meantime how are you doing keeping the whole law (all 613) as was intended?
Or are you referring to something other than the Mosaic law system when you mention 'law'? Because you say 'Israel only', I assume you are referring to the Mosaic/Levitical law.

 

[john832]

I hope he does. In the meantime how are you doing keeping the whole law (all 613) as was intended?
Or are you referring to something other than the Mosaic law system when you mention 'law'? Because you say 'Israel only', I assume you are referring to the Mosaic/Levitical law.

You think the Law is bad?

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Lev 18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

And the next verse shows a statute...

Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

Let me ask you, do you have a problem with this?

How about this one...

Lev 18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

This one pretty much too hard to do?

Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

And society today will have nothing to do with this one...

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

How about this?

Lev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.


Now yes, there are Laws we cannot keep today, those involving an Aaronical Priesthood and the Tabernacle or Temple.

So let me ask you, do you think Christ lied when He said this...

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

So, it is a pretty easy question, is verse 17 true or false?

 

[chubbena]

You think the Law is bad?

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Lev 18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

And the next verse shows a statute...

Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

Let me ask you, do you have a problem with this?

How about this one...

Lev 18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

This one pretty much too hard to do?

Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

And society today will have nothing to do with this one...

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

How about this?

Lev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.


Now yes, there are Laws we cannot keep today, those involving an Aaronical Priesthood and the Tabernacle or Temple.

So let me ask you, do you think Christ lied when He said this...

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

So, it is a pretty easy question, is verse 17 true or false?

Many view the law is BAD, harsh and no love.

He does not think so:

Deut 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

Deut 7:12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.

And the way He interprets "love the Lord with all your heart":

Deut 6:5-9 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

Deut 11:1 Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

 

[crossnote]

You think the Law is bad?

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Lev 18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

And the next verse shows a statute...

Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

Let me ask you, do you have a problem with this?

How about this one...

Lev 18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

This one pretty much too hard to do?

Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

And society today will have nothing to do with this one...

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

How about this?

Lev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.


Now yes, there are Laws we cannot keep today, those involving an Aaronical Priesthood and the Tabernacle or Temple.

So let me ask you, do you think Christ lied when He said this...

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

So, it is a pretty easy question, is verse 17 true or false?

First answer my question I previously asked you. Are you referrng to the Mosaic law when you say 'law''?

 

[okeyxyz]

When you interpret it that way you may fornicate all you wish to. Right?

First of all: What is fornication?