Does water baptism save us

[Alligator]

MAILMANDAN


Jn 3:5----------------spirit+++++++++++*living water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit+++++++++++*Spirit baptized>>>>>>>in body
Tts 3"5---------Holy Ghost++++++*washing of reg/spiritual washing/living water>>>>>savedl

i just want to address this portion of your post since it was directed at SeaBass.


These are your so called "corrections" to,the above.
You no doubt think you are dealing with a bunch of newbie's here. SeasBass put the words in this equation as they appeared in scripture. You added words to make yourself look right. Let's see, the scripture doesn't say "living water" you added it, in the second instance, the scriptures do not say "spirit " baptized, you added it, and third, spiritual washing is not in the scripture, you added. It.

I am really surprised you would try this

 

[peacefulbeliever]

peacefulbeliever,

baptism is water and the Spirit, just as John 3:5 states and has always been believed and understood from the very beginning. It is both. NO, one is born again, which is baptism, then they receive the Holy Spirit. From the beginning the Gift of the Holy Spirit was given by anointing.

Here is a short explanation of baptism, even though Rom 6:3-4 describes it, many do not understand the meaning or use of water. Water is life. It is the central element is life. But it is also death. Man cannot live under water.
Thus in baptism we die, going down into the water to be spiritually united with Christ in His death. We live again, rising out of the water in His resurrected humanity. It is called being, "born from above"
The Didache written in late 1st century, early 2nd spells it out very well, how to baptise and what it means. As well as the citations I gave to your earlier.

It has no reflection on you, just an idiom.

I know what water baptism symbolizes. The only water that is gives life is spiritual water, i.e. holy Spirit given by Jesus Christ. How can you separate being born again of holy Spirit and the gift of holy Spirit? God is Spirit - he gave us what he is - spirit - God in Christ dwells in us via the gift of holy Spirit via the new birth.

YOu do not read very well, since your view is wholly unknown until sometime after the Reformation. John's baptism was ONLY for the remission of sin. The NT baptism was also remission of sin, but more importantly it was the entrance into Christ as prescribed in John 3:5. Rom 6:3-4 is the description of baptism which is always water/Spirit. NT baptism is always water/Spirit.
then I misunderstood you since baptism is of water and the Spirit is is known as the "new birth" the regeneration of the lost union Adam had with God in the beginning. It is re-newal, re-generation of something that had once existed, namely the union Adam had and for which man was created. ONLY water/Spirit does it. Holy Spirit does nothing without the water. It is why it is called a mystery (sacrament) and why it is salvific. It is necessary for salvation.

The only way to be in fellowship with Christ or to be 'in Christ' is to be born again of the Spirit. The only thing that is salvific is faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9,10) being reconciled by the Spirit that dwells within you. That is what reconciled us back - that is the only thing that restored our fellowship with the Father and the Son.

It comes from neither in the sense you are using it.
This is refering to the Gift of the Holy Spirit that believers recieve by anointing. It always follows baptism, but the indwelling is not from the event of baptism.

You receive the gift of holy Spirit at the time you are born again. Why does it take a special anointing? I bring to your remembrance Acts 10.

The HOly Spirit is using the water to convey grace. The Spirit DOES NOT DWELL IN THE BELIEVER THROUGH BAPTISM. The indwelling is a separate gift, and is by anointing. The Church has always called it Chrismation. Being born again, is simply the entrance into a lost relationship that is being renewed.
Water is not symbolic of anything. Noah and the Ark are symbolic of baptism. The REd Sea dividing is a symbol of baptism. Water/Spirit is baptism. The only baptism the Church has ever known and understood as the norm, Eph 4:5, Nicene Creed states it. It has never changed from the beginning, has always been practiced and believed the same.

Does God call it "Chrismation"?

The only confusion lies with sola scripturist who are trying to get a meaning when scripture does not explain the meaning. No one of the Church had a problem with it, so the whole process, form, structure never was explained in one concise statement. But all through Scripture it can be gleaned as to what it means, the form, and purpose. Paul is not going to go into a dissertation about baptism when his readers know full well what he is speaking about.
I would surmise that sola scripturist won't get it straight over the next 500 years either, if Christ taries that long.

I'm not confused - There is ONE baptism - baptism with holy Spirit. Scripture clearly is self explanatory on this. The great commission was given to the apostles - when Paul comes along - he thanks God that he baptized none but Crispus and Gaius, the household of Stephanas: For Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel. Paul taught that the Law was just a shadow; that Christ did not send him to baptize; that there is only one baptism for the Church. The revelation Paul received was by revelation from Jesus Christ so it is possible that along with circumcision, sacrifices, ritual washings that baptism went from water baptism to baptism of holy Spirit just as John said.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I know what water baptism symbolizes. The only water that is gives life is spiritual water, i.e. holy Spirit given by Jesus Christ. How can you separate being born again of holy Spirit and the gift of holy Spirit? God is Spirit - he gave us what he is - spirit - God in Christ dwells in us via the gift of holy Spirit via the new birth.

The only way to be in fellowship with Christ or to be 'in Christ' is to be born again of the Spirit. The only thing that is salvific is faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9,10) being reconciled by the Spirit that dwells within you. That is what reconciled us back - that is the only thing that restored our fellowship with the Father and the Son.

You receive the gift of holy Spirit at the time you are born again. Why does it take a special anointing? I bring to your remembrance Acts 10.

Does God call it "Chrismation"?

I'm not confused - There is ONE baptism - baptism with holy Spirit. Scripture clearly is self explanatory on this. The great commission was given to the apostles - when Paul comes along - he thanks God that he baptized none but Crispus and Gaius, the household of Stephanas: For Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel. Paul taught that the Law was just a shadow; that Christ did not send him to baptize; that there is only one baptism for the Church. The revelation Paul received was by revelation from Jesus Christ so it is possible that along with circumcision, sacrifices, ritual washings that baptism went from water baptism to baptism of holy Spirit just as John said.

Romans 8 even says: 'If any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His'.

It's a rather plain and straightforward statement.

 

[Jackson123]

This is the statement from Brother Cassian.

Here is a short explanation of baptism, even though Rom 6:3-4 describes it, many do not understand the meaning or use of water. Water is life. It is the central element is life. But it is also death. Man cannot live under water.
Thus in baptism we die, going down into the water to be spiritually united with Christ in His death. We live again, rising out of the water in His resurrected humanity. It is called being, "born from above"
The Didache written in late 1st century, early 2nd spells it out very well, how to baptise and what it means. As well as the citations I gave to your earlier.



So brother Cassian believe that baptism die and spiritually united with Christ in His death.

Why brother Cassian did not believe baptism bear fruit? If before united with Christ he is a rapist, after united with Christ still a rapist? Can Christ united wit rapist?

Your a the temple of the Holy Ghost and you are the rapist?

 

[Jackson123]

Water baptism ritual is depend of the person, it can be just a tradition that doesn't any value in the eyes of the Lord.
For example if the person doing this for easier to find a job, or to impress his fiance or can be any motive that not biblical.

We can not fool the Lord with ritual. The Lord see the hearth not ritual. The Lord not decide Mr X go to heaven because go to baptism ritual. or donate million dollar to the church He able to see the motive in behind.

 

[mailmandan]

MAILMANDAN

Jn 3:5----------------spirit+++++++++++*living water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit+++++++++++*Spirit baptized>>>>>>>in body
Tts 3"5---------Holy Ghost++++++*washing of reg/spiritual washing/living water>>>>>savedl

i just want to address this portion of your post since it was directed at SeaBass.

These are your so called "corrections" to, the above.

Nothing so called about it. These are the corrections.

You no doubt think you are dealing with a bunch of newbie's here.

Whether thoroughly indoctrinated newbies or thoroughly indoctrinated veterans, it makes no difference. This is biased church of Christ theology.

SeasBass put the words in this equation as they appeared in scripture. You added words to make yourself look right. Let's see, the scripture doesn't say "living water" you added it,

The scripture doesn't say "baptism" in John 3:5 yet SeaBass added that word to fit his theology. What "water" does Jesus clearly connect with receiving everlasting life in John 4:10,14? LIVING WATER. It's interesting how SeaBass and others who teach salvation through water baptism never seem to mention these scriptures.

John 4:10 - "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. Notice in 1 Corinthians 12:13 - ..drink into one Spirit. Fits together perfectly.

in the second instance, the scriptures do not say "spirit " baptized, you added it, and third, spiritual washing is not in the scripture, you added. It.

1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states by one Spirit we were ALL baptized into one body.. That is Spirit baptized, not water baptized. Not a drop of water in that verse. Do you really believe that plain ordinary H20 has the power to accomplish this or the Holy Spirit? Do you really believe that plain ordinary H20 regenerates us on the inside or does the Holy Spirit cleanse us on the inside? What kind of washing is that? Physical washing (not the removal of the filth of the flesh) or spiritual washing? This also brings us back to LIVING WATER.

I am really surprised you would try this

I am really surprised that you think you can fool me with your flawed logic and also that you continue to ignore Jesus' reference to LIVING WATER in scripture and also that you can't tell the difference between physical and spiritual washing.

 

[mailmandan]

Why would you take an exception and make it the rule?

What exception? Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins is not the exception, it's the rule (John 3:16,18; 6:40,47; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4 etc.. Receiving the Holy Spirit upon believing the gospel is not the exception, it's the rule (John 7:38,39; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9; 19:2; Ephesians 1:13).

Your whole discourse of the baptism of Cornelius is known as the Gentile Baptism.

It's known as baptism of the Holy Spirit or Spirit baptism (Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13).

It is considered a teaching tool of God for the Apostles to fully understand that Christ made ONE man. There will be no longer Jew and Gentile. This is not the norm and which is why Peter applies water baptism as well. The gift of the Holy Spirit is actually a Gift that follows baptism and is not the baptism itself.

The gift of the Holy Spirit precedes water baptism (Acts 10:44-47; 11:17; 15:8,9). The laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit is not the norm (Acts 8:17).

But also, many of you are separating water and the Spirit. They are ALWAYS in tandem.

Living water and Spirit are always in tandem (John 4:10,14; 7:37,39), but not water baptism, which follows after Spirit baptism.

Which is why John 3:5, Rom 6:3-4, I Cor 12:13 are all baptisms of Water and the Spirit. Titus 3:5, the washing of regeneration is also water baptism.

John 3:5 does not say water "baptism" and Jesus connects living water with everlasting life in John 4:10,14. Where does that fit into your theology? Jesus' words cannot be dismissed here.

Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16; 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1, 2). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. As Greek Scholar A. T. Robertson comments: "A SYMBOL IS NOT THE REALITY, BUT THE PICTURE OF THE REALITY." Water baptism is only a picture of this reality, not the cause.

Water baptism could not be equated with the "washing of regeneration" because this would contradict the part of the verse that says "not by works or righteousness which we have done." Don't forget John 4:10,14; 7:37,39 - Living water, drink, everlasting life, He who BELIEVES IN ME, as the scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this he He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. In Titus 3:5 and John 3:5 we see a connection between washing/water/Holy Spirit and being born again, but NO mention of the words "water baptism."

There is ONLY ONE baptism and that is Water and the Spirit baptism.

There is only ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism (Ephesians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13), not water baptism. Living water is what washes us on the inside in Spirit baptism (John 3:5; 4:10,14; 7:37-39; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5), not plain ordinary H20.

It is stated in Eph 4:5 It is even stated in the Nicene Creed as ONLY one Baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 does not say "water" baptism, it says one baptism and 1 Corinthians 12:13 says by one Spirit we were ALL baptized into one body..and made to drink into one Spirit. Notice how Jesus connects drink with living water, and receiving the Holy Spirit and everlasting life in (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39).

 

[heavenlyparadise]

If anybody who proclaim him or her self believer of God who sent his son Jesus to us, love brothers and sisters, then will be saved. God will exercise his judgement according to his law.
The only law we should keep is to love brothers till die.
If one said I'm a believer but no good deeds to brothers or his neighbors, he is a liar.
These good deeds are not the works of Law which our Lord Jesus did for us, but these good deeds are the evidence of the Faith in God that he sent Jesus to us.

 

[SarahM777]

Then you are claiming a false gospel. That God can not wash you UNTIL you do a work of righteousness. Your making God hold back his cleansing salvic act until a man or woman obeys him in a physical act.

the baptism of the HS prophesied by John the baptist. Promised by Jesus, and witnessed by ALL the apostles is not the same as the baptism in water, they are two separate events. God does not need my obedience, nor does he need water to totally immerse me into the death, burial and body of Christ, which is wha

Going back to the OT Were the sins of Israel atoned for BEFORE or AFTER the High priest sprinkled the mercy seat with blood? Are we saved BEFORE or AFTER we repent and believe? Can one honestly say they are saved IF ONE WILL NOT submit to the physical act?

I don't know about Bible,but mine shows over and over and over,that often times God DOES NOT MOVE without a person stepping out in FAITH. The walls of Jericho did NOT fall down UNTIL they had marched around the city for seven days. The Red Sea did NOT part UNTIL Moses lifted up the rod and spread his hands. The Jordan river did not part UNTIL their feet got wet. And if you go the NT often times when Jesus told them to take a step of faith BEFORE they would be healed. They were not healed UNTIL they took that step of faith. Etc,etc etc.

God can certainly CHOOSE to limit how He does things. He most certainly CHOSE to save us one way. (He could have chosen MANY WAYS but He DID NOT) God could have chosen some other method BESIDES the cross,but He did not. So can God choose to use water baptism as the means to do so?

 

[Cassian]

I know what water baptism symbolizes. The only water that is gives life is spiritual water, i.e. holy Spirit given by Jesus Christ. How can you separate being born again of holy Spirit and the gift of holy Spirit? God is Spirit - he gave us what he is - spirit - God in Christ dwells in us via the gift of holy Spirit via the new birth.

The only way to be in fellowship with Christ or to be 'in Christ' is to be born again of the Spirit. The only thing that is salvific is faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9,10) being reconciled by the Spirit that dwells within you. That is what reconciled us back - that is the only thing that restored our fellowship with the Father and the Son.

You receive the gift of holy Spirit at the time you are born again. Why does it take a special anointing? I bring to your remembrance Acts 10.

Does God call it "Chrismation"?

I'm not confused - There is ONE baptism - baptism with holy Spirit. Scripture clearly is self explanatory on this. The great commission was given to the apostles - when Paul comes along - he thanks God that he baptized none but Crispus and Gaius, the household of Stephanas: For Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel. Paul taught that the Law was just a shadow; that Christ did not send him to baptize; that there is only one baptism for the Church. The revelation Paul received was by revelation from Jesus Christ so it is possible that along with circumcision, sacrifices, ritual washings that baptism went from water baptism to baptism of holy Spirit just as John said.

You can make it whatever you wish to make it. That is apparently the free choice of man as a sola scripturist. But the Gospel of Christ was never given to individual man to do with it as he desires. Your opinion does not change what it has always meant and how it has always been believed and practiced. The Holy Spirit has guarded Christ's Gospel without change over the last 2000 years and will continue to do so until Christ comes again as He promised.

Your understanding is quite gnostic as well. You are following the interpretation of Zwingli, one of the reformers who categorically denied the use of any material in the sacraments. It denies the very purpose that Christ not only in sanctfing water for its intended use, but also sanctified the physical world by redeeming it and actually taking it upon Himself when He assumed our human nature. It speaks a lot about your theology as it does for other Protestants.

Sola scripturist will be debating this until Christ comes again. One competing against another to come up with the best explanation. Hardly the unified Gospel of Christ given ONCE in the beginning to the saints.

 

[Cassian]

What exception? Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins is not the exception, it's the rule (John 3:16,18; 6:40,47; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4 etc.. Receiving the Holy Spirit upon believing the gospel is not the exception, it's the rule (John 7:38,39; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9; 19:2; Ephesians 1:13).



It's known as baptism of the Holy Spirit or Spirit baptism (Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13).



The gift of the Holy Spirit precedes water baptism (Acts 10:44-47; 11:17; 15:8,9). The laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit is not the norm (Acts 8:17).



Living water and Spirit are always in tandem (John 4:10,14; 7:37,39), but not water baptism, which follows after Spirit baptism.



John 3:5 does not say water "baptism" and Jesus connects living water with everlasting life in John 4:10,14. Where does that fit into your theology? Jesus' words cannot be dismissed here.

Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16; 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1, 2). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. As Greek Scholar A. T. Robertson comments: "A SYMBOL IS NOT THE REALITY, BUT THE PICTURE OF THE REALITY." Water baptism is only a picture of this reality, not the cause.

Water baptism could not be equated with the "washing of regeneration" because this would contradict the part of the verse that says "not by works or righteousness which we have done." Don't forget John 4:10,14; 7:37,39 - Living water, drink, everlasting life, He who BELIEVES IN ME, as the scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this he He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. In Titus 3:5 and John 3:5 we see a connection between washing/water/Holy Spirit and being born again, but NO mention of the words "water baptism."



There is only ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism (Ephesians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13), not water baptism. Living water is what washes us on the inside in Spirit baptism (John 3:5; 4:10,14; 7:37-39; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5), not plain ordinary H20.



Ephesians 4:5 does not say "water" baptism, it says one baptism and 1 Corinthians 12:13 says by one Spirit we were ALL baptized into one body..and made to drink into one Spirit. Notice how Jesus connects drink with living water, and receiving the Holy Spirit and everlasting life in (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39).

You have not given any new information here. You have done an excellent job in directly denying what scripture actually means. Your view does not align with scripture but is your personal interpretation. None of it aligns with the meaning of baptism in scripture as it has been believed and practiced or 2000 years unchanged. Your view was never even heard of before the Reformation. Even in this thread there are several other explanations, nuances, that are all different. Obviously, it is NOT the Gospel of Christ ONCE given and has been preserved by the Holy Spirit.

It shows how feeble and inept man is in trying to figure out what a text means outside of its content and context.
You and other sola scripturists will be debating this long after you are gone and new and supposedly better ideas will prevail over yours. Yet, the Gospel of Christ will continue unchanged until He comes again.

 

[SarahM777]

I am missing something here,or is the historical realities of what Jesus was asking the believers to do when He told them to be baptized? Have we forgotten that for the believers that to be water baptized,was AN ACT OF FAITH? Did we somehow forget what it could have cost them to be baptized into the name of Jesus? Do we really understand what Jesus was really them to do? Or do we forget that for the early believers that to be identified as a Christian could cost them everything including their lives?

 

[Jackson123]

I am missing something here,or is the historical realities of what Jesus was asking the believers to do when He told them to be baptized? Have we forgotten that for the believers that to be water baptized,was AN ACT OF FAITH? Did we somehow forget what it could have cost them to be baptized into the name of Jesus? Do we really understand what Jesus was really them to do? Or do we forget that for the early believers that to be identified as a Christian could cost them everything including their lives?

So Do you believe water baptism save us?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

<snip>
Your understanding is quite gnostic as well. You are following the interpretation of Zwingli, one of the reformers who categorically denied the use of any material in the sacraments. It denies the very purpose that Christ not only in sanctfing water for its intended use, but also sanctified the physical world by redeeming it and actually taking it upon Himself when He assumed our human nature. It speaks a lot about your theology as it does for other Protestants.

Sola scripturist will be debating this until Christ comes again. One competing against another to come up with the best explanation. Hardly the unified Gospel of Christ given ONCE in the beginning to the saints.

I had to look up the word gnostic/Gnosticism - the conviction that matter is evil and that emancipation comes through gnosis (I know that one of the Gk words for "know" is gnosko. . . but you did not mean that!) Also found this -

gnosticism, any of various related philosophical and religious movements prominent in the Greco-Roman world in the early Christian era, particularly the 2nd century.
The designation gnosticism is a term of modern scholarship. It was first used by the English poet and philosopher of religion Henry More (1614–87), who applied it to the religious groups referred to in ancient sources as gnostikoi (Greek: those who have gnosis, or “knowledge”). The Greek adjective gnostikos (“leading to knowledge” or “pertaining to knowledge”) was first used by Plato to describe the cognitive or intellectual dimension of learning, as opposed to the practical. By the 2nd century ad, however, gnostikoi had been adopted by various Christian groups, some of which used it positively as a self-designation, though others criticized this practice as a presumptuous claim of exclusive access to truth.

I still don't understand what it means! Can you explain how and why my understanding is "gnostic"? Just so I will have an understanding of your saying that, thanks.

"Unified Gospel of Christ" - wasn't even unified in the first century church: Now I beseech you brethren, by the name of ouir Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. . . . Is Christ divided? Nothing new under the sun!

 

[Alligator]

Nothing so called about it. These are the corrections.



Whether thoroughly indoctrinated newbies or thoroughly indoctrinated veterans, it makes no difference. This is biased church of Christ theology.



The scripture doesn't say "baptism" in John 3:5 yet SeaBass added that word to fit his theology. What "water" does Jesus clearly connect with receiving everlasting life in John 4:10,14? LIVING WATER. It's interesting how SeaBass and others who teach salvation through water baptism never seem to mention these scriptures.

John 4:10 - "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. Notice in 1 Corinthians 12:13 - ..drink into one Spirit. Fits together perfectly.



1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states by one Spirit we were ALL baptized into one body.. That is Spirit baptized, not water baptized. Not a drop of water in that verse. Do you really believe that plain ordinary H20 has the power to accomplish this or the Holy Spirit? Do you really believe that plain ordinary H20 regenerates us on the inside or does the Holy Spirit cleanse us on the inside? What kind of washing is that? Physical washing (not the removal of the filth of the flesh) or spiritual washing? This also brings us back to LIVING WATER.

I am really surprised that you think you can fool me with your flawed logic and also that you continue to ignore Jesus' reference to LIVING WATER in scripture and also that you can't tell the difference between physical and spiritual washing.

"Biased Church of Christ theology"?? That's pretty funny considering the primary source of your beliefs apparently come straight out of John Calvin's notebook.

your statement about me believing that there is power in the water makes it clear that you still do not have a clue as to what I believe, in spite of your claiming otherwise. The power is in the blood, not the water. I've said this more time and I can count. But you come in contact with that blood by obedience. Galatians 3:26–27

I'm going to let Seabass address the rest of this section since it was written to him to begin with.

 

[SarahM777]

So Do you believe water baptism save us?

We as human beings seem to ask the WRONG QUESTIONS. The question that really needs to be asked Can we really say we love the Lord if we don't do what He tells us to? Can we really say that we are saved when we don't do what He commands us to (And again I am not saying perfectly) So the really question is if one does not get baptized when we are commanded to be,can that person say they are truly saved?

 

[notuptome]

We as human beings seem to ask the WRONG QUESTIONS. The question that really needs to be asked Can we really say we love the Lord if we don't do what He tells us to? Can we really say that we are saved when we don't do what He commands us to (And again I am not saying perfectly) So the really question is if one does not get baptized when we are commanded to be,can that person say they are truly saved?

In a word yes. If we are discussing water baptism. We cannot be saved without Holy Spirit baptism. Water baptism is for obedience and preparation for service to the Lord.

I have been told that among Jewish people when a person claims to have trusted Jesus as the Messiah Savior promised of God his or her family will attempt to convince them to recant and rejoin the Jewish religion. If however they undergo water baptism they are then considered dead and often have a funeral for them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Linda70]

In a word yes. If we are discussing water baptism. We cannot be saved without Holy Spirit baptism. Water baptism is for obedience and preparation for service to the Lord.

I have been told that among Jewish people when a person claims to have trusted Jesus as the Messiah Savior promised of God his or her family will attempt to convince them to recant and rejoin the Jewish religion. If however they undergo water baptism they are then considered dead and often have a funeral for them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are correct. The more "religious" Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jewish families will do this more often than the Reform and Conservative Jewish families. Although this wasn't the case for me (I was raised in Reform Judaism) when I was born again and subsequently water baptized (in a Baptist church), I have friends whose families actually had funerals for them. They consider them "apostate" (meshumad) and "dead".

 

[SarahM777]

In a word yes. If we are discussing water baptism. We cannot be saved without Holy Spirit baptism. Water baptism is for obedience and preparation for service to the Lord.

I have been told that among Jewish people when a person claims to have trusted Jesus as the Messiah Savior promised of God his or her family will attempt to convince them to recant and rejoin the Jewish religion. If however they undergo water baptism they are then considered dead and often have a funeral for them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So if as you say water baptism is for those things,can you STILL say that if you DO NOT do so when Jesus clearly COMMANDED It and still say you are saved? So are you saying you CAN DISOBEY the Lord's commands and still be saved?

 

[Cassian]

peacefulbeliever,

I still don't understand what it means! Can you explain how and why my understanding is "gnostic"? Just so I will have an understanding of your saying that, thanks.

The infilteration of gnosticism begins with Augustine in his development of Original Sin. This is where the concept of total depravity comes from. Augustine adopted it from his Manichaenan background which was a comixture of a lot of religions of that day, including Christianity. Which is what confused Augustine possibly.

Unfortunately, Protestants because they are all in some form children of Augustine, either through Luther or Calvin. But Zwingli is the first in his arguments with Luther over the Eucharist to eliminate the "real presense" in any definition, either of RCC in Transubstantiation, and Luther in Consubstantiation. He did accept that it was a spiritual concept but had no meaning except that it was a rememberance, a ceremony remembering an event. From that is was downhill respective of the other sacraments of the RCC including baptism which are the only two that seem somewhat uniform of Protestants.
From the Orthdox perspective, these arguments are a denial of Christ's humanity and the reconciliation of the world, as well as the whole purpose of the sacraments, namely they are healing in nature. They do convey God's grace to man, thus are salvific in its purpose and were sanctified for that purpose.

This form of gnosticism appears in most Protestant definitions of the nature of man regarding Pauls description of the Old man and New man. You will find some forms of Protestantism that will actually claim that they do not sin because believers are in the Spirit. However, they do sin in the flesh which has no effect upon their status with Christ. And on it goes. I might also add it even extends to the understanding of the scriptural definition of the Body of Christ.
There is much more to Christianity than what will ever be seen from any forum that is solely based on the principle of sola scriptura. Man made theories abound by the thousands and each person has his own nuances to make it particular to his own interpretation. It is the antithesis of Christianity as it was meant to be and it is remote from the Gospel of Christ given ONCE in the beginning.

"Unified Gospel of Christ" - wasn't even unified in the first century church: Now I beseech you brethren, by the name of ouir Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. . . . Is Christ divided? Nothing new under the sun!

Rationalization of someones understanding and in only the Church to which it is being directed. Yet, never was the Church divided and separated over doctrine, practices of the Church. Corrections were made all through History. All false teachings were from within. Yet not a single one ever prevailed. Man has NEVER been able to impose his innovative ideas upon the Gospel of Christ within the Body of Christ which was entrusted with the Gospel and through which the Holy Spirit operates.

The first departure was the non-chalcedonians, who became the Oriental Churches but have now agreed to come back into the Orthodox Church. The ONLY other schism still in effect is the RCC. They have not just split but have added a lot to doctrines, new doctrines out of whole cloth, and reinterpretations of scripture, just as the Protestants do today, who were taught by the RCC.

The picture of sola scriptura over the last 500 years is not even close to the differences of understanding in the early Church when it was first developing from the former Jewish form. Sola scriptura will continue to the end of time and will get even worse than it is today. Thousands of new ideas, new doctrines, new innovations on every single aspect of scripture, many of which were declared heretical centuries even a millennium ago. The chaos, division and confusion has made the text, called the Bible, null and void. It is the epitome of man's supremacy, his intellect, ego and arrogance that he can do better than the Holy Spirit. In reality, the Bible has become a source of ideas. New idealogies have been created by individuals that are as different as Socrates is from Plato. All couched in biblical terminology. It is precisely Satan appearing as light.
He that has ears let him hear......