A
Animus
Guest
Sex outside of marriage.
Also, your signature is wrong.
Your signature describes paganism, not Christianity.
Paganism is spirituality, not Morality.
How Do We Know When the Law is for the Church?
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Sex outside of marriage.
Also, your signature is wrong.
Your signature describes paganism, not Christianity.
Paganism is spirituality, not Morality.
What Law is the Mosaic Law? This one?
Exo 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
Exo 24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Moses wrote NO LAWS, God told Moses what the Law is. So, again, Luke 16:17, true or false?
Smoke.
I'm not sure of your point, if Luke 16:17 means that the Mosaic law is still in effect, then are you keeping all the dietary laws?, all the clothing laws?, are you bringing your sacrifices to the priest in Jerusalem? If you keep one point of the law (out of duty) you are obligated to keep ALL of it.
Is that your goal? I choose to trust only in the True Lawkeeper, that is where the Law never fails.
I
Illuminated
Guest
The Bible is God's Constitution or "Law of the land". It covers all areas of life like marriage, money issues, child raising, farming instructions, many health issues, proper animal slaughter instructions, realestate issues, etc etc.... It even gives instructions on property markers and even how to deal with mold! It is Satan's kingdom that constantly undoes it and creates it's own constitutions.
Good afternoon, crossnote.
Indeed we all have much to learn and find ourselves with pea brains confronted with the Wisdom of God Almighty. Fortunately James offers us wisdom.
One might think that some of the prohibitions of Lev 18 were dispensational to Israel if it did not have this explanation:
" Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out from before you; and the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land vomiteth out her inhabitants. "
This indicates that "all these things" are things the Lord forbids to all men of all ages, because Gentile nations, who had not the law of Moses, were punished for doing these things.
As to the nature of God, "Be holy for I am holy." If it said, "Wear fringes on your garments because I and all the angels wear them," one might suppose that the command were universal, and not just to Israel.
Repetition to the Church (not just NT, for the gospels concern a time period when the Law was in force and concerns Jews under the Law), you evidently agree with.
But look at the Sabbath in Hebrews. The term Sabbath is used as a figurative term for the rest of faith in Christ, abandoning works as a means of justification:
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.
For indeed we have had good tidings preached to us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them who heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he has said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remains that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience, he again defines a certain day, Today, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before),
Today if you shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts.
For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. There remains therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.
This passage interprets the great failure of Israel to enter the promised land at Kadesh-Barnea. The plan was after Israel received the Law, for Israel to go and enter Canaan. But they refused and followed the bad spies. Thus they wandered until 40 years passed and the generation died which lacked faith. They said like, "There are giants in the land, and we can't succeed in entering and taking possession. They failed to enter for lack of faith. Many men today fail to enter the rest of salvation, striving by legalism and works, when it is all free gift received just for trusting Christ as Savior.
A very concise and accurate summation indeed! Most who rail against the Law have no idea what it says.
And you don't think the Designer and Creator of the human body has any idea what to put in it for fuel?
The Priesthood is changed as are the sacrifices and had you read the O.T. you could have known that...
Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
why were sacrifices added?
Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Jer 7:24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
so they had to have a reminder of the perfect Sacrifice to come...
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
And as far as keeping one point of the Law you must keep it all, that is not what the scripture says...
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
It plainly says that if you violate a small principle of the Law (respecting persons) you are just as guilty as one who murders in God's sight. Paul said the same thing...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Paul upheld the Law...
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
So once again I ask, true or false...
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Sorry, I missed the part about the garment...
Adam Clarke has a good treatise on it...
But we really do not know what the original word שעטנז shaatnez, which we translate linen and woolen, means: it is true that in Deu_22:11, where it is again used, it seems to be explained by the words immediately following, Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of linen and woolen together; but this may as well refer to a garment made up of a sort of patchwork differently colored and arranged for pride and for show. A folly of this kind prevailed anciently in this very land, and I shall give a proof of it, taken from a sermon against luxury in dress, composed in the fourteenth century.
John Gill and Bullinger add other thoughts to it and the gist of all seem to be that the idolatrous peoples around Israel wore mixed clothing in their idolatrous practices...
Adam Clarke has a good treatise on it...
But we really do not know what the original word שעטנז shaatnez, which we translate linen and woolen, means: it is true that in Deu_22:11, where it is again used, it seems to be explained by the words immediately following, Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of linen and woolen together; but this may as well refer to a garment made up of a sort of patchwork differently colored and arranged for pride and for show. A folly of this kind prevailed anciently in this very land, and I shall give a proof of it, taken from a sermon against luxury in dress, composed in the fourteenth century.
John Gill and Bullinger add other thoughts to it and the gist of all seem to be that the idolatrous peoples around Israel wore mixed clothing in their idolatrous practices...
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I have often wondered about this. We are not to read the law legalistically, looking at only the physical doing of it without the spiritual, nor are we to say we obey spiritually so therefore we don't have to do anything about a law. So what is the significance of not mixing textiles? I decided that we are to honor how God created our world and not try to recreate it. Our modern world does so much of that, making food "better", even putting marriage together differently with homosexuals.
Heb_10:28 If anyone disregards Moses' law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
It is most important in our Christian life to understand what Christ did for us so we have eternal life, it is before anything else we can know about God, but understanding the law comes after that. It is a complicated subject, and most people get hung up on one aspect of it without understanding all of it.
Even understanding the Torah that gives us the basis of law, or the principles of God the Father, seems to be difficult for most. The people God used to show His ways lived a different kind of life from ours, even their words meant different things to them, it is hard to understand. Christ had not lived in the flesh, in our kind of time, Christ changed many things and most people haven't followed exactly how and exactly what He changed. We can't read it legalistically, we would have to not have Christ to do that, and we would need their lifestyle including oxen.
Many people say that Paul was against the Torah, it was only for the Israelites and God didn't have us in mind at all when He dealt with them. Yet, 12% of the NT is about the Torah and the OT. Paul was a well educated Roman, but his main education was in the Torah, besides he knew Christ well. He could hear the words from God and relate them to us through this education. Nothing he says can be overlooked, from telling us that doing the law without faith is worthless, to faith without following it up with doing is worthless.
It is most important in our Christian life to understand what Christ did for us so we have eternal life, it is before anything else we can know about God, but understanding the law comes after that. It is a complicated subject, and most people get hung up on one aspect of it without understanding all of it.
Even understanding the Torah that gives us the basis of law, or the principles of God the Father, seems to be difficult for most. The people God used to show His ways lived a different kind of life from ours, even their words meant different things to them, it is hard to understand. Christ had not lived in the flesh, in our kind of time, Christ changed many things and most people haven't followed exactly how and exactly what He changed. We can't read it legalistically, we would have to not have Christ to do that, and we would need their lifestyle including oxen.
Many people say that Paul was against the Torah, it was only for the Israelites and God didn't have us in mind at all when He dealt with them. Yet, 12% of the NT is about the Torah and the OT. Paul was a well educated Roman, but his main education was in the Torah, besides he knew Christ well. He could hear the words from God and relate them to us through this education. Nothing he says can be overlooked, from telling us that doing the law without faith is worthless, to faith without following it up with doing is worthless.
There is no Christian definition of fornication as sex without marriage. That is just a carry-over from the law. Fornication in true christian definition is either unnatural sex or sex without proper consent(eg. rape, deception, adultery, etc). Not being married does not mean abstinence from sex, that is just Roman Catholic(pagan) doctrine. Abstinence has absolutely nothing to do with christianity, it is pagan. The liberty from the law include sexual liberty also. When two heterosexual adults have mutual sex, it is to the glory of God that they can do this without the guilt as in with the law of Moses. God has made us sexual beings and marriage is nothing but a permissible option(not a requirement) in sexual relationships.
As per my signature, I am not wrong. Christianity is spirituality. Spirituality means you have understanding of the true nature of reality and the implications of what you do. Morality is simply a guidance on how to live peaceably with people different(in mindset, doctrine, race, culture, etc) from you. It is secular. You exercise spirituality only in relation to yourself, your God, and your doctrinal brethren.
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A
Animus
Guest
Everything you just said is completely backwards and wrong. Your belief is not supported by scripture at all. God has always cared more about moral human conduct than any vague spiritual hogwash that people have always been drawn to. God hates evil and loves good, and tells us to do the same. This is the true nature of reality. There is good, and there is evil.
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Jesus
You will be called least in the kingdom of God.
My beliefs are 100 percent supported by scripture. Let's look at your bible passage again:
17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished -(Matthew 5 :17-18)
So Jesus came to fulfill the law, ie: to pay the debt of the law, because until him, not one human ever had any good understanding of the law, let alone fulfilling it. So he was the incarnation of the law, understood and lived as the law and his death signifies the death of the law and therefore it's abolishment. Notice the bolded above, how he says the law will not be abolished until it is accomplished(fulfilled). Jesus did accomplish the law, thus paving the way for it's abolishment.
If Jesus has indeed fulfilled the law and rendering it abolished, why would I continue to look to the same for definitions of right and wrong? I give you another insight: The law itself is the sin, not the breaking of it. This is how everybody is a sinner, because we all are subject to the law, it is embedded in our consciences from the fall of Adam, the law is human nature and thus Paul would also refer to it as "The Flesh" in his writings.
So it is the law that condemns(accuses) us of sin because it forbids us from doing things that are naturally endowed upon us (including sex). "Do not eat, do not drink, do not look, etc". This is the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil from the beginning. We were to suffer from it until we are delivered from it through the death of Jesus Christ.
So, I'm wondering, the Law says if my brother violates the Sabbath, it's ok for me to kill him.........Now, should I personally kill him, or farm that task out to some one else?
It says I can sell my daughter into slavery.........so, what's the going price for a reasonably healthy, fairly attractive young girl these days?
Do you OBEY ALL of the Mosaic Law?
"For from HIS fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
Gospel according to John 1:16-17
The law is always for the Church, it is a witness to us that in our flesh we are incapable of pleasing God. It is through Jesus Christ that we receive grace upon grace, He fulfilled in the flesh what we are incapable of fulfilling. He accomplished what was lacking in us, being without sin he had no reason to die, but in complete submittion to God the Father he died for all the sins of the world. By one act of disobedience all mankind fell from grace and by one act of obedience all mankind received grace.
Faith in and confession of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior is the only act of obedience God demands from humanity. Mankind can do nothing to please God except believe in the one who he has sent Jesus Christ. We know those who have believed because they love God and one another. Those who continue in sin and hate one another are not believers.
"Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Jesus Christ circa 30ad
Gospel according to John 1:16-17
The law is always for the Church, it is a witness to us that in our flesh we are incapable of pleasing God. It is through Jesus Christ that we receive grace upon grace, He fulfilled in the flesh what we are incapable of fulfilling. He accomplished what was lacking in us, being without sin he had no reason to die, but in complete submittion to God the Father he died for all the sins of the world. By one act of disobedience all mankind fell from grace and by one act of obedience all mankind received grace.
Faith in and confession of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior is the only act of obedience God demands from humanity. Mankind can do nothing to please God except believe in the one who he has sent Jesus Christ. We know those who have believed because they love God and one another. Those who continue in sin and hate one another are not believers.
"Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Jesus Christ circa 30ad
Christ did not abolish the law, Jesus Christ said that "one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law" John defined sin as the violation of God's laws. "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness," he wrote (1 John:3:4). You must listen to all scripture, one scripture NEVER says another scripture is wrong. If you think so. it means you are not understanding something.
Jesus took away the law's ability to cause our eternal death, He gave us grace and forgiveness. If we were without grace available, we would have to rely on being perfect to save us, or we would be "under law", we are under grace for salvation.
After we are saved by grace, we go to law for we are asked to be perfect. We are told it is impossible for us, so to obey both we must do the best we can to obey law.
Your idea of spiritual being the ONLY thing God speaks of is called Gnosticism. It was a false religion that is as old as Christ, and there are many scriptures telling of it's errors. We are not to separate all of God from all we do. Jas_2:17 In the same way faith, if it doesn't have works, is dead by itself.
I
Illuminated
Guest
The answer to your question is simple and I will answer in a respectful way unlike the way you asked your question. But before I answer...... Please be careful in the way you talk about God's law and criticize His masterpiece. You spoke in a way that made God (and His law) look like it is evil. If you feel His law is/was evil, then your problem is with Him and not me. I say this is love by the way and not with two rocks in my hands. And I say this for your sake not mine. His laws are good. It's people that just don't understand them. So let me explain just one of them for you because I really don't wanna be here all night.
As far as your question about the daughter and slavery goes..... You need to know what biblical terminology means vs what they mean today. Just look at the confusion today caused by not knowing what the words "burnt sacrifice" means. It simply means cooked animal meat. I explained this earlier in the thread. Why do you think the burnt sacrifice was given to the priests and others so they could eat it? Do people actually think that they were eating black, hard, charcoal?
Put aside whatever modern bible your using for a moment and read the same verse in an older word for word translation like the KJV or the Geneva. Now what do you see? That same daughter is called a servant. A servant which simply means worker. There is nothing wrong with a person being a servant or having a daughter that is a servant. I currently have a daughter that is a servant. How else do her bills get paid?? The word servant is mentioned about 500 times in the bible but the word worker....... is not used. That's because workers were called servants. To be a servant is not a bad thing it just means your working for somebody. In some translations, servants are called slaves. It means the same thing. A far as being paid a price (ransom) for going into service (servant-hood or slavery), what's wrong with that? Nobody work for free. Whether a person gets paid a large sum up front or by the hour is up to that person's master (employer). So in the bible, the work force is called servants or slaves.
Proverbs 22:7 says... the borrower is servant to the lender. Some translations say the borrower is the slave of the lender. It's the same thing. Till you pay a loan off, you are somebody's servant (slave). You gotta work till it's paid back. America is a slave right now to the people it borrowed money from. Anybody who owes money is a slave (servant). Lot's of people are in slavery.
Here is a modern example of a girl (somebody's daughter) being bought (sold) into slavery (servant-hood or service). A girl joins the military and gets a sign up bonus of $15,000 thousand dollars up front. She has to serve (be a servant/slave) for 2 years. Her parents get the money and use it in what ever way is best. After the 2 years she is free. Same thing goes on today.
Another example..... God is my master and I am His servant (or slave). Some translations say we are to be servants of Christ. Some use the word slave of Christ but it's the same thing. There is nothing wrong with being a servant/slave.
The laws of the bible cover all areas of life including how the workforce is supposed to operate. The law is God's masterpiece for Order in the world.
I
Illuminated
Guest
I can't teach the whole law here. It takes way too long and is done better in person. It's is up to us as God's people to know it. If anybody is struggling to understand the law, just practice...... James 1:5, But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and with no reproach, and it shall be given to him.
Just keep in mind though.... the BEST part of the law is the symbolism and foreshadowing of things to come. But the physical is beneficial too. It provides blessings.
Just keep in mind though.... the BEST part of the law is the symbolism and foreshadowing of things to come. But the physical is beneficial too. It provides blessings.