H
Hoffco
Guest
WE are saved for the purpose , so we can keep the laws of God,joyfully. Now, after being saved we can keep God's laws to the happiness of God and our own eternal happiness. agree?? Love Hoff
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Yes, God made all things good; but the enemy and the flesh can defile what God has made. God is the One who made physics so that if you jump off the Sears tower, 'you're going down' let's just say. But the very law that made you fall and hurt yourself is good; the law is good... but the fact you hurt yourself isn't. In that instance, the law worked against you: it was contrary to you. So, as many people in the Bible say, God made everything good, then bad happened and defiled many of those things. (People were never meant to fall and hurt themselves for instance.) Do you get what I'm saying?
Yes, the Law is already in us through the Holy Spirit, and the more we walk in line with the Spirit, the more the Law is a joy to keep (not the OT Law mind you, but the Law of God which He writes on the heart and which Jesus mentioned in Mt. 3, Ps. 40 prophesying this of Him before He came).
Anything that brings you under obligation is Law. But not every obligation is bad though some are. "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law" (Rom. 13:8). That says there is no obligation but to love, and in that case, that obligation (to love which is the new commandment that both Jesus and John mentioned separately) is a good one. Again, everything that God made is good and for good, but they can all be defiled or used for bad.
For what the shadow is for.
Do you understand what a shadow in the OT of a future NT reality is?
Absolutely I do, but just because something is a shadow of something greater doesn't mean we ignore it, especially when God never says to. John originally asked you to show some verses where God said to stop celebrating the Sabbath. The verses you mentioned didn't say anything about NOT celebrating the Sabbath. If you're going to say that God tells us to stop celebrating the Sabbath, then you need to find verses that say just that. It's not enough to try and rationalize it out using shadows, especially when Jesus told His disciples to follow the Law. Unless you can find a verse where Jesus says to stop following the Law or the Sabbath, you're reaching a little bit to try and say that He is, especially when there is a verse where He says to keep doing it.
M
MidniteWelder
Guest
Actually, Jesus didn't break it. The Sabbath forbid gathering. Jesus and His disciples were eating. The Pharisees however saw it differently.
Matthew 12:1
1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath.
His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.
2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
...picking was considered gathering
Just because Jesus didn't mention it here doesn't mean He was saying not to do it at all. He didn't need to reiterate everything because He(God) had already instructed it in the OT. Unless God says not to do something, you keep doing it.
In football terms, "Play till the whistle blows."
Unless it's no longer beneficial, but perhaps still permissible.
Why keep playing after the whistle has blown and the adversary defeated?
Or address a conduct which need not addressing lest we're back to an adherence of do's and don'ts rather than a one on one relationship with the Lord. (Note Romans 14 below)
Jesus gave more do's than dont's. I believe he wants us to be a "do Bee" more than a "don't Bee."
But how many hear his voice and follow in obedience if God has to God say not to do something.
Honestly, if a person likes to take a sunday or saturday every weekend, so be it. Or a Tuesday, or a Friday.
It's beneficial to take a day of rest for health purposes which replenishes the temple of God.
Then again if you have a job where you must work on that day or else you no longer have a job to provide for your family, which law holds more? The moral one or the judicial one?
If the Law was never intended to save, and Abraham was saved by belief, then why does Paul spend so much time telling the Pharisees the Law doesn't save? Because they falsely thought it did. If it was never intended to save, yet God keeps telling His people to do it, He's saying that it doesn't conflict with grace.
If you refer to the 10 commandments, I agree, that law does not conflict with grace.
In fact it may even contribute to making one even more graceful
Just a small clarification, Jesus didn't just say He fulfilled it, He told His disciples to do the Law and to teach others to do it as well. We can't just spiritualize the Law when Jesus said to do it as well.
Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Fulfill:
1
to do what is required by
to succeed in achieving
to succeed in achieving 2
a : to put into effect : execute
b : to meet the requirements of (a business order)
c : to bring to an end------->interesting how many grab at this one definition while overlooking all the others
d : to measure up to : satisfy
3
a : to convert into reality
b : to develop the full potentialities of
And I agree with just about everything you said here. Obedience to the Sabbath or Law cannot, and never was intended to earn salvation. So if folks are following the Law for that purpose, then they're works are useless. But just because some people misinterpreted the Law and it's purpose doesn't mean it is done away with completely. It still serves a purpose for us today, and we are still told to follow it, just not for salvation's sake.
I again would agree. and while I'm here would like to clarify just to prevent any possible misunderstanding.
I wasn't suggesting you to be dull, I include myself in that definition as well because in comparison to God we are all dull.
And in spite of this, I believe God holds us to higher expectations to aspire to.
To not be complacent in our walk with God
But to seek his will and not interpret the scriptures to please ourselves but rather to please God.
Yet keeping the sabbath on a certain day of ritual for some reason I have no conviction of because I place my rest in Christ. For his yoke is light and his burden not heavy.
The requirement of sacrificial offerings for the sabbath such as was kept before (note two below) have been completed/finished.
Numbers 28
On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with olive oil.
Ezekiel 46:4,5
And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer to the LORD in the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish.
This is not to remove accountability for our sins since there are still sins which we will answer for yet do not lead to death
...since Christ was the last sacrifice required for atonement of our sins which lead to death.
Hebrews 10:18
And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
So why would we keep a special day as a sabbath day?
Is one day different from another anymore.
Should not all days be set aside equally for the Lord?
Romans 14
5One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.But there are still sins which do not lead to death which we are still held accountable to(will answer for)
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We must not worship and learn of our Lord with half truths. There are truths here, but when you say this is all God tells us about the law, and that you have the full story, it makes it a half truth not the truth.
You tell how the law doesn't save us, it is faith that does that. You are bringing us up to our salvation, but scripture goes one from there, and you are ignoring that. After we are saved, after we know God and we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, we are to walk in His ways, and we are to learn through scripture the way that God wants us to walk. The Holy Spirit will agree with that scripture and help us understand the law. We may not stop following Christ after we are saved, it is ignoring many many scriptures.
1) And where do you find a verse that states that without a verse using your specific language,
it cannot be Biblical.
Where do you find a verse that states God is "sovereign"? Or "triune"? Or "relational"?
2) There are many truths of the NT that are not stated in the specific language of the doctrine.
This is your own principle, it is not a Biblical one.
3) If you understood Paul, you would understand the Biblical place for OT shadows in the light of their NT realities.
I appreciate your humility at the beggining of the post. It's always refreshing to see that on here.
The reason why we should keep the Sabbath special and set apart is because all throughout Scripture, God made it set apart. From creation, to Mt. Sinai, even up to Jesus being the Lord of the Sabbath, God set it apart as different from the rest of the week. Yes, all days should be set aside for God, but the fact of the matter is that God set that 1 day aside as special. He said it was to be forever, and He never changed it. We can read words from Paul that seem to indicate it's different, but when God says it's forever in the OT, and Jesus says it's forever in the NT, then I have to believe Paul felt the same way. If we think Paul is saying different, we're misunderstanding what he said.
Regardless, may God bless everyone on this Sabbath, whether you recognize it as such or not.
Matt
Christ became our sacrificial offering for the Sabbath day, Christ did not take away the Sabbath day. When we and the world were created, a pattern was set up we are to follow. God worked six days and rested on the seventh, He blessed the seventh day for our benefit. There is no scripture that orders that stopped. We are to rest in Christ, depend on Him, but that does not say don't work six days and give the seventh to simply depend on God not your work. How can you both work six days and set six days aside for a Sabbath?
A command from God is different than a descriptive word from man, and therefore doesn't have the same criteria for Biblical accuracy.
I honestly could care less what "doctrine" says. Doctrine is man's interpretation of what God says and who He is. I prefer to let God's own words speak for Himself, especially when it is plainly stated.
And in that same vein, if you understood Jesus, you would understand that He plainly told His disciples to do and teach the Law forever. (Matthew 5). If you think Paul is saying something different than Jesus' words in Matthew 5, then it's possible you are elevating Paul's words over Jesus' words.
And I pray and trust that isn't the case.
Okay. . .now I get it.
Let me remind you that Paul's words are the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2)
through the NT writers.
I don't buy into the "conflict model" between Jesus and Paul. . .and I'm sorry that this is your case. . .
so I'm out on this.
And I completely agree that Paul's words are the words spoken by the Son as well.
But Jesus says plainly to follow the Law forever.
Paul doesn't plainly say not to.
But regardless of whether we agree or not, and whether you want to keep talking or not, thanks for your thoughts, and thanks for loving and serving God with your entire life.
A Blessed Sabbath to you and yours.
What does the Lord Jesus say in Matthew 5?
Be Perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.
Seriously. Be Perfect. That's what the Law demands. Anything less is condemnation.
As we are all bearing this heavy burden of working at the Law trying to be Perfect Like God is Perfect, the Lord Jesus gives His Solution for those who can't do it.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
So are these conflicting commands from the Lord Jesus? Work as hard as you can at the Law to be Perfect. But then come to Him to stop working and be given rest?
No. They are not conflicting. They are steps in the spiritual life of the believer. Paul expounds on this, but you don't believe him.
The law (be perfect like your Father in Heaven is Perfect) is the schoolmaster to bring you to Christ (rest from your works).
The Law is good if a man uses it lawfully. How is that? To show the need every man has for our Saviour. To show that your labor and heavy burden is not making you perfect like God is Perfect. You must come to Christ to be Perfect. Only His Work will make you perfect.
Well its not for our salvation, you say. Be not entangled again in the yoke of bondage. Your works at the law is not rest, its not faith.
Pauls words are not elevated over what the Lord Jesus says. They expound and explain what the Lord Jesus has said. They are perfectly in accordance with each other.
Galatians 3:10-14
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
A
AgeofKnowledge
Guest
Nicely stated. I get busy so don't have time to dismantle every false assertion sabbatarians make on this forum and trace each misinterpretation back to their false teachers and false prophets for them showing exactly where their error comes from. That said, I do find time to do a good deal of that. 
. Peace.
It's Okay NOT to be a Seventh-day Adventist: Think Not that I Am Come to Destroy the Law
. Peace. It's Okay NOT to be a Seventh-day Adventist: Think Not that I Am Come to Destroy the Law
God have mercy on those who either actually do abide in the mosaic law (government) since Christ suffered one time at the end of the mosiac covenant:
Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the LORD on the altar of the LORD which he had built before the porch; 13and did so according to the daily rule, offering them up according to the commandment of Moses, for the sabbaths, the new moons and the three annual feasts-- the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths.
"'On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with olive oil.
are you killing lambs on your sabbath? why?
if you're not, but saying you keep the law, that's sick, a lie and a cult.
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
nómos – Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
God have mercy on all of you. i will pray for you
, that you purge the evil thought from your minds that Christ died for nothing!you don't even seem to know what the Law witnessed TO!
1Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
xōrís (a preposition, also used as an adverb which is probably derived from 5561 /xṓra, "an open or detached space") – properly, apart from, separated ("without"); (figuratively) detached, rendering something invalid or valid.
nómos – Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
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In your posts you have said over and over that you do not understand the shadows as an outline of NT realities.
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:18-19