Does water baptism save us

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May 2, 2014
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chosenbyHim, your main problem is that you are confusing the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38, with baptism of the Holy Spirit Matt. 3:11. There is a big difference. After baptism, all Christians receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit was not promised to us today. Also, it can only be administered by Christ.
Hi Alligator,

Good post. I agree many confuse the two. Luke records the baptism of the holy Spirit as the Spirit fell on someone.

It also amazes me how many will say a passage doesn't say water so it must be spiritual baptism, yet the same passage doesn't say spirit either. If one does a search through the Scriptures to see how God uses water they will see the purpose of baptism.
 
May 2, 2014
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I'm not a 5 point Calvinist and I knew very little about John Calvin when I received Christ through faith so explain how the primary source of my beliefs come straight out of John Calvin's notebook? That sounds like a Roman Catholic sales pitch. I at one time had temporarily attended a church of Christ so I immediately caught on to your 6 step plan of salvation that you cited in one of your posts - 1. hear 2. believe 3. repent 4. confess 5. get baptized 6. remain faithful. This patched together mixed up false gospel is the result of poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics.



You keep saying that "born of water" is an allusion to water baptism and that the "washing of regeneration" is an allusion to water baptism. Explain to me how becoming born again and receiving the washing of regeneration equates to water baptism as the source or cause of being born again/regenerated yet there is no power in the water? Also explain to me why you make no reference to LIVING WATER when Jesus clearly does:

John 4:10 - 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 7:37 - If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit..

Now compare that with "born of water and Spirit" and "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit". Jesus connects living water/Holy Spirit/everlasting life, yet all you connect water to is water baptism. Why do you dismiss the words of Jesus here?



So there is no power in living water? (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39). What literally cleanses us on the inside? He who believes in me out of his heart will flow rivers of living water, but no cleansing is accomplished on the inside as the result of this?



So your definition of obedience here is obviously baptism. Notice in Galatians 3:26, Paul said - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (period). He didn't say through faith and water baptism. We are baptized by one Spirit into one body and made to drink into one Spirit. Compare with drink in (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39). In what sense are we water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" (metaphorically) indicating their oneness, or solidarity, with him as their leader (1 Corinthians 10:2) just as through water baptism we indicate our oneness, or solidarity with Christ as our Savior. Now does 1 Corinthians 10:2 teach that the Israelites were literally water baptized into the body of Moses? Absolutely not.

"Through His blood" (Colossians 1:14; Ephesians 1:7) is a reference, not limited to the fluid as if the blood has saving properties in it's chemistry and we literally contact it in the waters of baptism or the water somehow magically activates the blood, but is an expression pointing to the totality of Christ's atoning work as a sacrifice for sin. The word "cross" is used similarly to refer to the whole atoning work of Christ on the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18; Galatians 6:12,14; Ephesians 2:16). I understand you needing to accommodate the theology of your church but this is ridiculous!

[SUP]YLT
[/SUP]Titus 3:5 (not by works that are in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Here is Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the NT.


2. Theological Reflection. Jesus protests sharply against confusing ritual and moral purity and against trust in external observances (Mark 7). The rest of the NT develops this insight. Even a moral break with the past does not itself purify. The proper starting point is the forgiveness of sins by a merciful God. If full cleansing comes only with the consummation, eschatological fulfilment is already a reality in Christ (1 Pet. 1:2). Entrance into this is at baptism, which is thus a [FONT="Gentium" !important][I]loutrón[/I][/FONT], not in the old sense of a ritual cleansing, but in a new and distinctive sense that derives its content from the saving work of Christ.


[I]3. Pertinent Passages.[/I]


a. If [FONT="Gentium" !important][I]loúsanti[/I][/FONT] is the correct reading in [URL="http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Rev+1%3A5"]Rev. 1:5[/URL], this gives a true NT thought indirectly related to baptism. But [FONT="Gentium" !important][I]lýsanti[/I][/FONT] (“freed”) is better attested.


b. In many verses there is a clear reference to baptism. In [URL="http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Ac+22%3A16"]Acts 22:16[/URL] Ananias tells Paul to be baptized and wash away his sins. In 1 Cor. 6:11 Paul reminds his readers that, being washed, they are to avoid fresh defilement. In Eph. 5:26 Christ purifies the church for bridal union by the washing of water with the word (i.e., the divine word of the gospel). In Heb. 10:22 the outward washing is related to the inner purifying. In Tit. 3:5 the washing of regeneration is on the basis, not of our own works, but of God’s mercy. In 2 Pet. 2:22 the point of the proverb (Prov. 26:11) is that the false teachers, after baptism, return to sin and incur unforgivable guilt (Heb. 6:4ff.; 1 Jn. 5:16).

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: Abridged in One Volume.
 
A

Alligator

Guest
Hi Alligator,

Good post. I agree many confuse the two. Luke records the baptism of the holy Spirit as the Spirit fell on someone.

It also amazes me how many will say a passage doesn't say water so it must be spiritual baptism, yet the same passage doesn't say spirit either. If one does a search through the Scriptures to see how God uses water they will see the purpose of baptism.
My thoughts exactly on Spirit baptism. It seems there is a recent trend to totally eliminate water baptism from the New Testament. There is an attempt to plug-in Spirit baptism even if there's no basis for doing so.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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My thoughts exactly on Spirit baptism. It seems there is a recent trend to totally eliminate water baptism from the New Testament. There is an attempt to plug-in Spirit baptism even if there's no basis for doing so.
The other is done is to remove something that God INTENDED AS A RESPONSE. Even taking Genesis 15 where Paul uses that verse to show that Abraham was declared by faith,what gets left out is the following verses.

Genesis 15

8 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?”
9 So the Lord said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.”

10 Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. 11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away.

Abram asks the question How would he know? God tells Him to go bring all these animals to Him. God's expectation is that Abram will respond BY FAITH BY DOING,not just by a head knowledge. That is the pattern that is repeated over and over and over again in the Bible.

When one takes baptism and claims it's a work to earn salvation,one has changed into something that God did NOT design it to be. It is designed to be a RESPONSE to repenting and believing. It is to come out of the first part. And no one can ever baptize themselves,it is designed for one to SUBMIT to it.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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And to take it further,any accountability has been removed because one does NOT really have to submit to another Christian,because now instead we change to an altar call, a sinner's prayer,a pledge card etc etc etc,none of which we were told to do. So let's exchange what we were plainly told to do and do things that are more designed for our pride and ego,and are not based on scripture and what we were plainly told to do.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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You know, after reading this and other post of yours I don't even think you know what you believe much with what I believe,. I'm not going to waste my time responding to you as I have been doing in the past because you will only come back with the same old responses and accusations. To hear you tell it, you are the only one on this board has it right.
Seriously? You must be joking. :eek:

I don't have the time or the inclination to continue reading your excessively long post and respond to them when I know that your primary purpose is ridicule.
My primary purpose is for you to hear the word of the gospel and believe, not ridicule you.

Personally, I think you make a mockery of God's word. And I'll leave it at that.
Personally, I think you are thoroughly indoctrinated into church of Christ theology and refuse to seriously consider what I have shared with you. I already told you that I at one time had attended a church of Christ so I understand their mixed up 5-6 plan of salvation. "Faith" in the churches of Christ is understood as nothing more than "intellectual assent" or accepting the facts of the Christian faith. To them it is believing God’s historical testimony about Himself, Jesus Christ, and that of the rest of the Bible. Repentance on the other hand is understood as moral "self-reformation."

In regards to faith, those in the churches of Christ often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing on Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between "mere intellectual belief or assent" from a personal faith that is "trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation."

They will cite that even the devils "believe" (from James 2:19) in their sermons and will contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith "except that the faith of devils lacks any moral or religious good works." This also explains why they have so much faith in "water and works."

Thus, their understanding gives rise to their reversal of the scriptural order of repentance and faith, as I already explained. This is the heart of the error of their 5-6 step plan of salvation. I also explained Romans 10:9,10 to you as well, which also gets misinterpreted by the church of Christ. No ridicule here, I am simply being straight forward with you. Please take some time to consider what I have shared with you. This is a critical topic in which salvation is at stake.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Back that up with scripture that says someone MUST have that kind of knowledge BEFORE being baptized. It's NOT THERE. That is a man made law. You are trying to make it something on an INTELLECTUAL basis. Taken to the next step,then on top of that then you RESTRICT PEOPLE from being who DO NOT and can NEVER have the mental capacity to understand those things in the way you do. If that is the restrictions you make then you MUST EXCLUDE people with down syndrome,autisum,etc etc etc because they do not have the same mental capacities that you,and most of them will never have. It's too bad how sad for them. Since when did God ever say that they are to be EXCLUDED from the kingdom or from baptism?

I never said that Jesus told us to reduce it to the INTELLECT of a child. Your missing the point because is showing quite clearly it is NOT AN INTELLECTUAL PURSUIT. Jesus quite plainly says let the LITTLE CHILDREN COME TO ME.

I'm disappointed that the level of discipleship you offer. Summed up as receive Christ, get water baptized and it's all good. I never suggested that any should be excluded but that all should be discipled. If one has the capacity to understand the gospel why would they then be incapable of understanding scriptural baptism? The same Holy Spirit that is able to make one wise unto salvation is all of a sudden powerless to make one able to comprehend the meaning of water baptism? Really? I shudder to think that this extends to the sacrament of communion as well.

We have a responsibility to not only evangelize but also to disciple them. Let God do His work in the hearts of those who are His. God Who has saved them will move them to water baptism and communion when it is in His perfect time. May not be what we expect but I suggest that God knows better than me.

Matthew 28:19-20 our risen Lord say to teach them and He says it twice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Since in Acts 11 Peter puts the events in ORDER what does verse 15 mean then?

Acts 11:15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning."

Peter just began speaking those saving words, and not told them yet what to believe.

"As I began to speak" is not my bias but the facts the bible gives.

Jesus did not say "living water" in Jn 3:5. You continue to go to a remote text and take the figurative use of water in Jn 4:10 and apply that figurative meaning to Jn 3:5 which is not proper exegesis.

Acts 2;38----repent++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>remission of sisn
Acts 3:19--- repent++++++++++++be converted>>>>sins blotted out
Acts 10:43------------believe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Since there is just one way to be saved/have remission of sins/sins blotted out, that can only mean that belief includes repetnace and baptism. Peter did not tell Conrelius to believe only but commanded him to be water baptized.

Also one has not been converted unless one has been water baptized, just as from Acts 2:41, one has not received the gospel message until one has been baptized.

1 Pet 3:21 Peter is talking about water baptism, else why would he say baptism is not washing dirt from the flesh if he was not talking about water, one takes a bath in water to wash dirt away.

OT type------saved by water
NT antitype--saved by water.

So Peter is talking about water baptism that saves

Eph 2:8------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21-----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

So a saving faith includes the water baptism of 1 pet 3:21.

Acts 2:41 says "
they that gladly received his word were baptized:" Conversely those that rejected Peer's words rejected baptism.

Acts 2:44 "
And all that believed were together"

So who are the ones that 'believed" in v44?

10 The ones that accepted his words and were baptized?
2) the ones that rejected his words and rejected baptism?

Obviously the ones in v44 that are said to have believed are the one accepting his words and baptized in v41. So we have the word "believed" in v44 including being baptized of v41.

The eunuch, the jailer, Lydia were all WATER baptized, the one baptism of Eph 4:5, Christ's human administered water baptism of the the great commission.

again,
Eph 2:8---faith>....saves
1Pet3:21-baptism>>>>saves

So "purifying their hearts by faith" includes water baptism.

Jn 3:5---------------spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13-------spirit++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
1Pet1:22----------spirit++++++++++obeying the truth>>>>>purified souls

So to get to purified hearts/souls requires water/baptized/obeying the truth
I already refuted your arguments above. Please go back and take the time to thoroughly read post #1471.

Eph 2:8------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21-----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

So a saving faith includes the water baptism of 1 pet 3:21.
No, saving faith is signified, but is not procured in water baptism. It's not the baptism itself that saves -
not the removal of filth from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Once again, READ IT ALL.

Acts 2:41 says "they that gladly received his word were baptized:" Conversely those that rejected Peer's words rejected baptism.
They that gladly received his word through repentance/faith were afterwards baptized, signifying their faith and conversion. In Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Baptism did not magically make them become disciples of John but their decision to become disciples of John was signified in baptism. Just like becoming a disciple of Jesus is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism.

Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together"

So who are the ones that 'believed" in v44?

10 The ones that accepted his words and were baptized?
2) the ones that rejected his words and rejected baptism?
They believed and were saved before they were water baptized. Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. What happened to baptism? It followed after they became believers. You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but because they are believers. Luke 8:12 - Believe and be saved. When did the Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit? When they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17) before water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Water baptism follows and signifies faith and conversion, but does not produce it.

Obviously the ones in v44 that are said to have believed are the one accepting his words and baptized in v41. So we have the word "believed" in v44 including being baptized of v41.
No, they accepted his word through repentance/faith and this was signified in water baptism. Believing is not baptism and believing precedes water baptism and we are saved when we believe prior to water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16). It's just that simple. When will you REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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[SUP]YLT
[/SUP]Titus 3:5 (not by works that are in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Here is Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the NT.

2. Theological Reflection. Jesus protests sharply against confusing ritual and moral purity and against trust in external observances (Mark 7). The rest of the NT develops this insight. Even a moral break with the past does not itself purify. The proper starting point is the forgiveness of sins by a merciful God. If full cleansing comes only with the consummation, eschatological fulfilment is already a reality in Christ (1 Pet. 1:2). Entrance into this is at baptism, which is thus a [FONT="Gentium" !important][I]loutrón[/I][/FONT], not in the old sense of a ritual cleansing, but in a new and distinctive sense that derives its content from the saving work of Christ.

[I]3. Pertinent Passages.[/I]

a. If [FONT="Gentium" !important][I]loúsanti[/I][/FONT] is the correct reading in [URL="http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Rev+1%3A5"]Rev. 1:5[/URL], this gives a true NT thought indirectly related to baptism. But [FONT="Gentium" !important][I]lýsanti[/I][/FONT] (“freed”) is better attested.

b. In many verses there is a clear reference to baptism. In [URL="http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Ac+22%3A16"]Acts 22:16[/URL] Ananias tells Paul to be baptized and wash away his sins. In 1 Cor. 6:11 Paul reminds his readers that, being washed, they are to avoid fresh defilement. In Eph. 5:26 Christ purifies the church for bridal union by the washing of water with the word (i.e., the divine word of the gospel). In Heb. 10:22 the outward washing is related to the inner purifying. In Tit. 3:5 the washing of regeneration is on the basis, not of our own works, but of God’s mercy. In 2 Pet. 2:22 the point of the proverb (Prov. 26:11) is that the false teachers, after baptism, return to sin and incur unforgivable guilt (Heb. 6:4ff.; 1 Jn. 5:16).

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: Abridged in One Volume.
The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used is used metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing, Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." The word "regeneration" is from the Greek word palingenesia, which is taken from two root words "born" and "again."

Greek Scholar A.T. Robertson: Through the washing of regeneration (dia loutrou palingenesiaß). Late and common word with the Stoics (Dibelius) and in the Mystery-religions (Angus), also in the papyri and Philo. Only twice in the N.T. (Matthew 19:28 with which compare apokatastasia in Acts 3:21, and here in personal sense of new birth). For loutron, see Ephesians 5:26, here as there the laver or the bath. Probably in both cases there is a reference to baptism, but, as in Romans 6:3-6, the immersion is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it. And renewing of the Holy Spirit (kai anakainwsewß pneumatoß agiou). "And renewal by the Holy Spirit" (subjective genitive). For the late word anakainwsiß, see Romans 12:2. Here, as often, Paul has put the objective symbol before the reality. The Holy Spirit does the renewing, man submits to the baptism after the new birth to picture it forth to men. Amen! :D

*Water baptism could not be equated with the "washing of regeneration" because this would contradict "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." If water baptism is necessary for salvation, then we would be saved by a work of righteousness, in contradiction to Titus 3:5. By Jesus getting water baptized, it was a part of Him "fulfilling all righteousness" (Matthew 3:13-15). Water baptism is clearly a work of righteousness. Salvation is not by works (Ephesians 2:9); not according to our works (2 Timothy 1:9); not by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) but is through FAITH (Romans 3:22-28; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8).
 
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Dec 26, 2012
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I'm disappointed that the level of discipleship you offer. Summed up as receive Christ, get water baptized and it's all good. I never suggested that any should be excluded but that all should be discipled. If one has the capacity to understand the gospel why would they then be incapable of understanding scriptural baptism? The same Holy Spirit that is able to make one wise unto salvation is all of a sudden powerless to make one able to comprehend the meaning of water baptism? Really? I shudder to think that this extends to the sacrament of communion as well.

We have a responsibility to not only evangelize but also to disciple them. Let God do His work in the hearts of those who are His. God Who has saved them will move them to water baptism and communion when it is in His perfect time. May not be what we expect but I suggest that God knows better than me.

Matthew 28:19-20 our risen Lord say to teach them and He says it twice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Go back and read what I said. You have made a man made law,that says one must have the knowledge that you somehow deem is needed before they are baptized and not what scripture says is needed. You have ADDED something that is NOT in scripture. Is a child's understanding the same as yours? Is a person that does NOT have the same mental abilities that you do understand it the same way you do? Where did I say NOT to disciple someone to bring them to fuller knowledge? What does scripture say what one must do before being baptized? My Bible says they are to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,anything else added to that is man made law.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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When one takes baptism and claims it's a work to earn salvation,one has changed into something that God did NOT design it to be. It is designed to be a RESPONSE to repenting and believing. It is to come out of the first part. And no one can ever baptize themselves,it is designed for one to SUBMIT to it.

God owed Naaman nothing but by God's grace Naaman could be cleansed of his disease if he obediently obeyed by going and dipping 7 times in the river.

No dipping = no cleansing

Likewise,


God owes SarahM777 nothing but by God's grace SarahM777 can be cleansed of her sins(saved) if she obediently obeys God by going and submitting to be dipped in the waters of baptism.


No dipping = no cleansing



Will some come here and argue that since Naaman did works, his cleansing awawy of his disease was NOT of grace but earned by doing works of merit? Probably not.

Will some come here and argue that since SarahM777 did works, her cleansing away of sins was NOT of grace but earned by doing works of merit? Yes.

Even though there is not one whit of difference between free gifts and works in the two examples above, they will claim (MUST claim) there is for no other reason that to protect a man-made theology.
 
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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Go back and read what I said. You have made a man made law,that says one must have the knowledge that you somehow deem is needed before they are baptized and not what scripture says is needed. You have ADDED something that is NOT in scripture. Is a child's understanding the same as yours? Is a person that does NOT have the same mental abilities that you do understand it the same way you do? Where did I say NOT to disciple someone to bring them to fuller knowledge? What does scripture say what one must do before being baptized? My Bible says they are to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,anything else added to that is man made law.
Philip inquired of the eunuch before he water baptized him. This was after the eunuch asked Philip if he could receive water baptism. I have no greater standard than Philip. Water baptism is not required to be saved. One will be in heaven with or without water baptism.

When scripture says repent and be baptized it is not referring to water. The instant one repents one receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit unto salvation. These are not separate events but are simultaneous.

Many churches do not baptize babies because they have no knowledge of the event. It then becomes a ritual for the benefit of others and is of no consequence to the baby. It is a ritual for the sake of ritual.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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God owed Naaman nothing but by God's grace Naaman could be cleansed of his disease if he obediently obeyed by going and dipping 7 times in the river.

No dipping = no cleansing

Likewise,

God owes SarahM777 nothing but by God's grace SarahM777 can be cleansed of her sins (saved) if she obediently obeys God by going and submitting to be dipped in the waters of baptism.

No dipping = no cleansing

Will some come here and argue that since Naaman did works, his cleansing awawy of his disease was NOT of grace but earned by doing works of merit? Probably not.

Will some come here and argue that since SarahM777 did works, her cleansing away of sins was NOT of grace but earned by doing works of merit? Yes.

Even though there is not one whit of difference between free gifts and works in the two examples above, they will claim (MUST claim) there is for no other reason that to protect a man-made theology.
In the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. Read about it in (Luke 5:12-15). No water is found here.

No dipping here = cleansing.

Luke 5:12 - "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean." Jesus responded, (get dipped in water first? - NO) "I am willing; be cleansed" (vs. 13). He had faith in Jesus to heal him and Jesus healed him.

Secondly, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptized unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins. The NT uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, not of salvation through baptism. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation through baptism, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).

Acts 10:43 - Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.

No believing = no remission.
 

Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
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Philip inquired of the eunuch before he water baptized him. This was after the eunuch asked Philip if he could receive water baptism. I have no greater standard than Philip. Water baptism is not required to be saved. One will be in heaven with or without water baptism.
so says the blind man as he fall into the ditch.

When did the Eunuch rejoice? after he believed? or after he was baptized?

The Holy Spirit guided Philip to the Eunuch, I am sure Philip knew which baptism was the one salvific baptism of Eph 4:5, ans so knowing one cannot be saved without baptism, if the Eunuch was saved by Holy Spirit baptism as you portray, then why would Philip sin having a man be baptized with water?

When scripture says repent and be baptized it is not referring to water. The instant one repents one receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit unto salvation. These are not separate events but are simultaneous.

Many churches do not baptize babies because they have no knowledge of the event. It then becomes a ritual for the benefit of others and is of no consequence to the baby. It is a ritual for the sake of ritual.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Again, you have Peter, Philip, Paul and any other that baptized with water a sinner having men baptized with water as if they didn't know there is one salvific baptism (Eph 4:5), causing men to sin by being baptized by another Gospel other than Christs, if you have two baptisms, and Eph 4:5 says there is one, you have two Gospels being preached, so which one of these did the Apostles sin? or more likely you have it wrong, and water baptism is the saving baptism.

Water baptism is the only one disciples including John can do (Matt 3:11), the one the disciples were commissioned to do (Matt 28:19).
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Philip inquired of the eunuch before he water baptized him. This was after the eunuch asked Philip if he could receive water baptism. I have no greater standard than Philip. Water baptism is not required to be saved. One will be in heaven with or without water baptism.

When scripture says repent and be baptized it is not referring to water. The instant one repents one receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit unto salvation. These are not separate events but are simultaneous.

Many churches do not baptize babies because they have no knowledge of the event. It then becomes a ritual for the benefit of others and is of no consequence to the baby. It is a ritual for the sake of ritual.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Then if one is baptized by the Holy Spirit at the moment one believes then why were even water baptized at all if it's just a dead ritual? If it's just a ritual then why did Jesus tell the disciples to baptize in water? (Peter must have thought that is what Jesus really meant because he baptized Cornelius and his family in water) Then Peter and Paul both got it wrong because they both water baptized and yet Paul never said anything about NOT doing water baptism even AFTER he wrote about Gentiles not being circumcised in the flesh? So why didn't write anything along those lines if it's nothing more then a ritual?
 
May 2, 2014
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My thoughts exactly on Spirit baptism. It seems there is a recent trend to totally eliminate water baptism from the New Testament. There is an attempt to plug-in Spirit baptism even if there's no basis for doing so.
I agree! I think one of the biggest reasons is a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching on works
 
May 2, 2014
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The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used is used metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing, Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." The word "regeneration" is from the Greek word palingenesia, which is taken from two root words "born" and "again."

Greek Scholar A.T. Robertson: Through the washing of regeneration (dia loutrou palingenesiaß). Late and common word with the Stoics (Dibelius) and in the Mystery-religions (Angus), also in the papyri and Philo. Only twice in the N.T. (Matthew 19:28 with which compare apokatastasia in Acts 3:21, and here in personal sense of new birth). For loutron, see Ephesians 5:26, here as there the laver or the bath. Probably in both cases there is a reference to baptism, but, as in Romans 6:3-6, the immersion is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it. And renewing of the Holy Spirit (kai anakainwsewß pneumatoß agiou). "And renewal by the Holy Spirit" (subjective genitive). For the late word anakainwsiß, see Romans 12:2. Here, as often, Paul has put the objective symbol before the reality. The Holy Spirit does the renewing, man submits to the baptism after the new birth to picture it forth to men. Amen! :D

*Water baptism could not be equated with the "washing of regeneration" because this would contradict "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." If water baptism is necessary for salvation, then we would be saved by a work of righteousness, in contradiction to Titus 3:5. By Jesus getting water baptized, it was a part of Him "fulfilling all righteousness" (Matthew 3:13-15). Water baptism is clearly a work of righteousness. Salvation is not by works (Ephesians 2:9); not according to our works (2 Timothy 1:9); not by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) but is through FAITH (Romans 3:22-28; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8).
What you highlighted from Roberson is opinion. The text literally says, the bath of regeneration. The only bath in the Christian faith is water baptism. It was Paul who wrote the letter to Titus and we can see from Paul's letter to the Philippians that he considered "works of righteousness" as keeping the law.

[SUP]8[/SUP] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[SUP]9[/SUP] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
(Phi 3:8-9 KJV)

We can see from this that to Paul works of righteousness meant keeping the Law. He's not saying anything good that you do constitutes works and that doesn't save. Likewise, when Paul says one is not saved by works he is addressing the issue of the Judaizers who were believing Jews who were going behind Paul telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. If you read Acts 15 and Galatians 1-3 you can see where he deals with this issue.

We can see from the historical record that the earliest Christians understood the necessity of baptism.

Here is a quote from Ignatius. Ignatius was a student of the apostle John and history records that Peter appointed him as bishop at Antioch.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Chap. II.—Be Subject to the Bishop, Etc.
Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for “he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God.” (Heb. 13:17) Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection. It is therefore necessary, whatsoever things ye do, to do nothing without the bishop. And be ye subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall be found in Him. It behoves you also, in every way, to please the deacons, who are [ministers] of the mysteries of Christ Jesus; for they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They are bound, therefore, to avoid all grounds of accusation [against them], as they would a burning fire. Let them, then, prove themselves to be such.

As you can see, he is alluding to the apostle Paul in Romans 6. He says that it is through baptism that one partakes of the resurrection, the same thing Paul said.

Justin Martytr,

Justin Martyr

Chap. LXI.—Christian Baptism.
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:5) Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, saith the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if ye refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.” (Isa. 1:16-20) And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

We can see here that Justin says that it is in water that they were regenerated. He wrote shortly after the apostle John died.

Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus Against Heresies

Chap. XXI.—The Views of Redemption Entertained by These Heretics. 1. It happens that their tradition respecting redemption is invisible and incomprehensible, as being the mother of things which are incomprehensible and invisible; and on this account, since it is fluctuating, it is impossible simply and all at once to make known its nature, for every one of them hands it down just as his own inclination prompts. Thus there are as many schemes of “redemption” as there are teachers of these mystical opinions. And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.

These are three early Christian writers, one directly taught by John and appointed bishop by Peter, one a disciple of John's disciple and another who was very early in the faith, all saying that baptism is connected to the eternal life and two stating plainly that baptism is regeneration to God.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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What you highlighted from Roberson is opinion. The text literally says, the bath of regeneration. The only bath in the Christian faith is water baptism.
So according to you, what Robertson says is opinion yet what the church fathers say is inspired? Not so. Their writings are not infallible. Once again, the word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing, Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." The word "regeneration" is from the Greek word palingenesia, which is taken from two root words "born" and "again." Notice that Ephesians 5:26 says washing of water by the word. Jesus equates living water with everlasting life (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39). Jesus said drink of the water that He shall give us, Paul said drink into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13). So plain ordinary H20 has no power to regenerate man. So Paul is not teaching the Roman Catholic heresy of baptismal regeneration in Titus 3:5 but is referring to spiritual washing/living water/purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (John 3:5; Ephesians 5:26; 1 Peter 1:23). You continue to confuse the picture with the reality. A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

It was Paul who wrote the letter to Titus and we can see from Paul's letter to the Philippians that he considered "works of righteousness" as keeping the law.
So baptism is not a work of righteousness but a work of unrighteousness? Matthew 3:13 - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. Water baptism was a part of Jesus fulfilling all righteousness, so it is clearly a work of righteousness. Works of righteousness are not limited to specific works that are detached from the moral aspect of the Law.

[SUP]8[/SUP] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[SUP]9[/SUP] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
(Phi 3:8-9 KJV)

We can see from this that to Paul works of righteousness meant keeping the Law.
We could establish our own righteousness if we perfectly kept the Law but this is impossible because we have all broken the Law. So the alternative is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, not through water baptism or any other works of righteousness.

He's not saying anything good that you do constitutes works and that doesn't save.
Where does Paul say that we are "saved by works" of any kind? Did Paul say saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 or saved through faith, not works? In 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that He saved us and called us, not according to our works.. I'm not seeing a specific category distinction for works that save and works that don't save. Good works in general which follow faith in Christ do not save.

Likewise, when Paul says one is not saved by works he is addressing the issue of the Judaizers who were believing Jews who were going behind Paul telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. If you read Acts 15 and Galatians 1-3 you can see where he deals with this issue.
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of righteousness" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the Law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the Law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

We can see from the historical record that the earliest Christians understood the necessity of baptism.

Here is a quote from Ignatius. Ignatius was a student of the apostle John and history records that Peter appointed him as bishop at Antioch.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Chap. II.—Be Subject to the Bishop, Etc.
Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for “he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God.” (Heb. 13:17) Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection. It is therefore necessary, whatsoever things ye do, to do nothing without the bishop. And be ye subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall be found in Him. It behoves you also, in every way, to please the deacons, who are [ministers] of the mysteries of Christ Jesus; for they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They are bound, therefore, to avoid all grounds of accusation [against them], as they would a burning fire. Let them, then, prove themselves to be such.

As you can see, he is alluding to the apostle Paul in Romans 6. He says that it is through baptism that one partakes of the resurrection, the same thing Paul said.

Justin Martytr,

Justin Martyr

Chap. LXI.—Christian Baptism.
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:5) Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, saith the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if ye refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.” (Isa. 1:16-20) And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

We can see here that Justin says that it is in water that they were regenerated. He wrote shortly after the apostle John died.

Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus Against Heresies

Chap. XXI.—The Views of Redemption Entertained by These Heretics. 1. It happens that their tradition respecting redemption is invisible and incomprehensible, as being the mother of things which are incomprehensible and invisible; and on this account, since it is fluctuating, it is impossible simply and all at once to make known its nature, for every one of them hands it down just as his own inclination prompts. Thus there are as many schemes of “redemption” as there are teachers of these mystical opinions. And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.

These are three early Christian writers, one directly taught by John and appointed bishop by Peter, one a disciple of John's disciple and another who was very early in the faith, all saying that baptism is connected to the eternal life and two stating plainly that baptism is regeneration to God.
I guess that settles the question for Roman Catholics, who are amazed that Evangelical Christians have the audacity to disagree with the fathers on this matter. It may come as a surprise that Catholics too do not follow the practice of the early church in the administration of this sacrament. For example it was common practice that the candidate was immersed three times, whereas the modern Catholic rite consists of pouring water on the head. Before baptism, the candidate was anointed with "oil of exorcism" while the presbyter prayed, "Let all spirits flee far away from you." Apart from the fact that there is no scriptural warrant for this anointing, they were also mistaken in their belief that this oil served for the remission of sins even before baptism:

Now this is blessed by the high priest for the remission of sins, and the first preparation for baptism. For he calls thus upon the unbegotten God, the Father of Christ, the King of all sensible and intelligible natures, that He would sanctify the oil in the name of the Lord Jesus, and impart to it spiritual grace and efficacious strength, the remission of sins, and the first preparation for the confession of baptism, that so the candidate for baptism, when he is anointed may be freed from all ungodliness, and may become worthy of initiation, according to the command of the Only-begotten (Apostolic Constitutions, XLII)

During baptism, the candidates had to remove their clothing and stand naked in the water. The newly baptized was not allowed to take a bath for a whole week. We do not feel obliged to follow the fathers in their unscriptural inventions, changing the simple ordinance of Christ into a superstition, not to mention their disregard for public decency. (See Tertullian, The Crown; St Hippolytus of Rome, The Apostolic Tradition). These are the same people who insisted on baptismal regeneration.

The church fathers were not infallible and at times contradicted each another, so we must look for a surer foundation for our faith. The ultimate criterion is the Word of God. Even in apostolic times, errors quickly spread among churches. Let's see if the church fathers said anything about salvation through faith in Christ alone.

Clement of Rome: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).

Ignatius: "His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified (Epistle to Philadelphians). Note: "muniments" are title deeds, documents giving evidence of legal ownership of something.

Polycarp: "I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

Justin Martyr: "No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer...are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account (Dialogue with Trypho). "God gave his own Son the ransom for us...for what, save his righteousness, could cover our sins. In whom was it possible that we, transgressors and ungodly as we were, could be justified, save in the Son of God alone? ...O unexpected benefit, that the transgression of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors" (Letter to Diognetus).

Ireneus: "Through the obedience of one man who first was born from the Virgin, many should be justified and receive salvation."

Athanasius: "Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham."

Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."

Ambrose: "Without the works of the law, to an ungodly man, that is to say, a Gentile, believing in Christ, his "faith is imputed for righteousness" as also it was to Abraham."

Origen: "Through faith, without the works of the law, the dying thief was justified, because...the Lord inquired not what he had previously wrought, nor yet waited for his performance of some work after he should have believe; but...he took him unto himself for a companion, justified through his confession alone."

Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."

Chrysostom: "What then did God do? He made (says Paul) a righteous Person (Christ) to be a sinner, in order that he might make sinners righteous... it is the righteousness of God, when we are justified, not by works...but by grace, where all sin is made to vanish away."

Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to faith alone, is blessed."

Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."

Augustine: "Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,--in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."

Anselm: "Do you believe that you cannot be saved but by the death of Christ? Go, then, and ...put all your confidence in this death alone. If God shall say to you, "You are a sinner", say to him, "I place the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between me and my sin.""

Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."

That does not sound like baptismal regeneration to me. I'm not hearing saved by works either. ;)
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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So according to you, what Robertson says is opinion yet what the church fathers say is inspired? Not so. Their writings are not infallible. Once again, the word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing, Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." The word "regeneration" is from the Greek word palingenesia, which is taken from two root words "born" and "again." Notice that Ephesians 5:26 says washing of water by the word. Jesus equates living water with everlasting life (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39). Jesus said drink of the water that He shall give us, Paul said drink into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13). So plain ordinary H20 has no power to regenerate man. So Paul is not teaching the Roman Catholic heresy of baptismal regeneration in Titus 3:5 but is referring to spiritual washing/living water/purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (John 3:5; Ephesians 5:26; 1 Peter 1:23). You continue to confuse the picture with the reality. A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.



So baptism is not a work of righteousness but a work of unrighteousness? Matthew 3:13 - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. Water baptism was a part of Jesus fulfilling all righteousness, so it is clearly a work of righteousness. Works of righteousness are not limited to specific works that are detached from the moral aspect of the Law.



We could establish our own righteousness if we perfectly kept the Law but this is impossible because we have all broken the Law. So the alternative is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, not through water baptism or any other works of righteousness.



Where does Paul say that we are "saved by works" of any kind? Did Paul say saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 or saved through faith, not works? In 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that He saved us and called us, not according to our works.. I'm not seeing a specific category distinction for works that save and works that don't save. Good works in general which follow faith in Christ do not save.



In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of righteousness" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the Law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the Law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?



I guess that settles the question for Roman Catholics, who are amazed that Evangelical Christians have the audacity to disagree with the fathers on this matter. It may come as a surprise that Catholics too do not follow the practice of the early church in the administration of this sacrament. For example it was common practice that the candidate was immersed three times, whereas the modern Catholic rite consists of pouring water on the head. Before baptism, the candidate was anointed with "oil of exorcism" while the presbyter prayed, "Let all spirits flee far away from you." Apart from the fact that there is no scriptural warrant for this anointing, they were also mistaken in their belief that this oil served for the remission of sins even before baptism:

Now this is blessed by the high priest for the remission of sins, and the first preparation for baptism. For he calls thus upon the unbegotten God, the Father of Christ, the King of all sensible and intelligible natures, that He would sanctify the oil in the name of the Lord Jesus, and impart to it spiritual grace and efficacious strength, the remission of sins, and the first preparation for the confession of baptism, that so the candidate for baptism, when he is anointed may be freed from all ungodliness, and may become worthy of initiation, according to the command of the Only-begotten (Apostolic Constitutions, XLII)

During baptism, the candidates had to remove their clothing and stand naked in the water. The newly baptized was not allowed to take a bath for a whole week. We do not feel obliged to follow the fathers in their unscriptural inventions, changing the simple ordinance of Christ into a superstition, not to mention their disregard for public decency. (See Tertullian, The Crown; St Hippolytus of Rome, The Apostolic Tradition). These are the same people who insisted on baptismal regeneration.

The church fathers were not infallible and at times contradicted each another, so we must look for a surer foundation for our faith. The ultimate criterion is the Word of God. Even in apostolic times, errors quickly spread among churches. Let's see if the church fathers said anything about salvation through faith in Christ alone.

Clement of Rome: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).

Ignatius: "His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified (Epistle to Philadelphians). Note: "muniments" are title deeds, documents giving evidence of legal ownership of something.

Polycarp: "I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

Justin Martyr: "No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer...are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account (Dialogue with Trypho). "God gave his own Son the ransom for us...for what, save his righteousness, could cover our sins. In whom was it possible that we, transgressors and ungodly as we were, could be justified, save in the Son of God alone? ...O unexpected benefit, that the transgression of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors" (Letter to Diognetus).

Ireneus: "Through the obedience of one man who first was born from the Virgin, many should be justified and receive salvation."

Athanasius: "Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham."

Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."

Ambrose: "Without the works of the law, to an ungodly man, that is to say, a Gentile, believing in Christ, his "faith is imputed for righteousness" as also it was to Abraham."

Origen: "Through faith, without the works of the law, the dying thief was justified, because...the Lord inquired not what he had previously wrought, nor yet waited for his performance of some work after he should have believe; but...he took him unto himself for a companion, justified through his confession alone."

Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."

Chrysostom: "What then did God do? He made (says Paul) a righteous Person (Christ) to be a sinner, in order that he might make sinners righteous... it is the righteousness of God, when we are justified, not by works...but by grace, where all sin is made to vanish away."

Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to faith alone, is blessed."

Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."

Augustine: "Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,--in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."

Anselm: "Do you believe that you cannot be saved but by the death of Christ? Go, then, and ...put all your confidence in this death alone. If God shall say to you, "You are a sinner", say to him, "I place the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between me and my sin.""

Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."

That does not sound like baptismal regeneration to me. I'm not hearing saved by works either. ;)
I find it mystifing that a man in the 21st century thinks he knows what a text might mean who was never taught the Gospel in the first place dismiss a person actually taught by the Apostles. Then compares modern RCC which has changed a lot, as his reason to dismiss the early Fathers. Then uses citations that are dealing with justification by faith as some sort of rationale for addressing baptism.

Does any of that make sense?
 

Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
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Thus, their understanding gives rise to their reversal of the scriptural order of repentance and faith, as I already explained. This is the heart of the error of their 5-6 step plan of salvation. I also explained Romans 10:9,10 to you as well, which also gets misinterpreted by the church of Christ. No ridicule here, I am simply being straight forward with you. Please take some time to consider what I have shared with you. This is a critical topic in which salvation is at stake.
It is not the CoC that has repentance and faith reversed, you have no room for repentance, you have yourself saved the the moment of belief, so if you are saved the moment you believe then where is there room for repentance, to claim it is after your saved/belief, you have unrepentant men saved, if you have it before saved/belief, you cannot have any idea what to repent of, you see how backwards your plan of salvation is? is it not better to use the plan God made rather than design your own?

No ridicule here, I am simply being straight forward with you, please take some time to consider what I have shared with you. This is a critical topic in which salvation is at stake.

PS: maybe you could explain Romans 10:9-10 to me?