The Sabbath.

[chubbena]

He is stuck in a place where any time keeping the commandments is mentioned especially the sabbath he says the same answer all the time. Even though people tell him that we keep the law through Christ and out of love. People have to continue to feed him milk.

He, among others, meant well. If not for their challenges, I wouldn't have come to understand the scripture like I have now but seems like they are running out of new ideas lately.

 

[p_rehbein]

Kerry......once we receive the gift of righteousness, we have to stay righteousness in order to truly benefit from the gift.

Simply believing in Christ as the savior of the world isn't righteous. Following in Christ's footsteps is righteous.

How do we follow in Christ's footsteps? By living a life of faith, AKA a life of good-will, righteousness; the Godly traits.



God's grace is a free gift, salvation isn't.

The verse you quoted actually supports a 'faith + good works' salvation mindset. We are made truly righteous by being obedient to God. Believing in God is merely a first step to obedience. Use your practical intelligence.

Oh goodness..................SALVATION is a FREE GIFT and that of GRACE through FAITH............

SANCTIFICATION is where we continue our walk with Christ striving to be Christ-like..........

there is a huge difference between Salvation and Sanctification...............

"faith without works is dead" is referring to Sanctification ............. NOT SALVATION!

................goodness...........

 

[Yahshua]

Major fallacy and error.

If you work at the law you fall from grace. You are relying on your own self. The law is not of faith.

If you rely on the Lord Jesus Christ you are dead to the law and your own righteousness. You are relying on faith in Christ.

So again, its a really simple question with a really simple answer.

If you think it is ok to work at the law then you are back under condemnation and must keep the whole thing. Bringing back to life your flesh and its work.

There is a new way now. Its not by your work at the law.

Galatians 5:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Keeping the commandments is not impossible. Its just impossible for flesh people who are trying to keep the commandments. Kind of a weird statement isn't it?

Ezekiel 36:26-27

[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is also a simple concept once you have been born again. The Holy Spirit causes us to walk in His Statutes. How?

Matthew 22:37-40

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

What does the Holy Spirit cause inside of us, in our new hearts of flesh?

Galatians 5:22-23

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Grandpa you're misrepresenting my statement a bit when you say "my work at the law" even though I said it's "Christ's work at the law in me". So maybe I should try this angle to see where our signals are getting crossed...

1. Can you define for me what God means to "love God with one's whole heart, soul, mind and strength"? Anyone can say they love God (in their own way), but how does God himself define love for him?


2. Can you define for me what God means to "love your neighbor as yourself"? Anyone can say they love their neighbor (in their own way), but how does God himself define love for a neighbor?


3. True Galatians 5:17-18 says the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh. And Romans 8:7 also says "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.", which is also the point your making with Galatians.

But doesn't Romans 8:7 also mean the opposite is true; that a mind governed by the spirit is friendly to God; and that it does submit to God's Law, and it can do so?


4. Now, I completely agree with you when you say...

Keeping the commandments is not impossible. Its just impossible for flesh people who are trying to keep the commandments. [...]

So my last question is this: So spirit people are able to keep the commandments, right?

4A. Is the believer who is "born again" still of the flesh or are they of the spirit?

 

[Linda70]

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Galatians 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Galatians 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Galatians 5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Galatians 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Galatians 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 

[john832]

Jeremiah 17:27

Good News Translation (GNT)

27 But they must obey me and observe the Sabbath as a sacred day. They must not carry any load through the gates of Jerusalem on that day, for if they do, I will set the gates of Jerusalem on fire. Fire will burn down the palaces of Jerusalem, and no one will be able to put it out.”


John 5:5-14

English Standard Version (ESV)

5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7 The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.”8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9 And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.




Conclusion sabbath day changed otherwise the gates of Jerusalem would of been burnt down, enough said

There were...

and it shall not be quenched; until it has utterly destroyed the city: this was fulfilled by the Chaldeans, Jer_52:13. The Jews say there is no fire kindled but where the sabbath is profaned; and that Jerusalem was destroyed because they profaned the sabbath (m). - John Gill

So about that Sabbath changed thing, you might wish to rethink it.

 

[john832]

ah a burden as a load of trouble on your back ? or a burden as a load of pain or a sin that you may not speak about until the sabbath is over ? notice my two questions here.

lets re-read John 5:5-14

English Standard Version (ESV)

5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7 The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.”8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9 And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.


the sickman had a burden and then he was told to carry his load

Expositors has this...

The Sabbath observance prescribed by the old Law, and recommended by Jeremiah, was indeed a very different thing from the pedantic and burdensome obligation which it afterwards became in the hands of scribes and Pharisees. These, with their long catalogue of prohibited works, and their grotesque methods of evading the rigour of their own rules, had succeeded in making what was originally a joyous festival and day of rest for the weary, into an intolerable interlude of joyless restraint; when our Lord reminded them that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. (St. Mar_2:27) Treating the strict observance of the day as an end in itself, they forgot or ignored the fact that the oldest forms of the sacred Law agreed in justifying the institution by religious and humanitarian considerations. (Exo_20:8; Exo_20:10; Deu_5:12)

 

[john832]

It's sad when one always equates keeping His commandments with own will and strength...oh wait a minute. Didn't I just say that in my last post?
Does one have to break His commandments to show humility and meekness...oh wait a minute. Didn't I just say that in my last post?

It is really sad when one equates obedience to living life in ones own strength and disobedience to faith and grace.

 

[john832]

You did say both those things. And I agreed with you that it is sad that you think you can keep the commandments.

And yet you still haven't answered the very simple question that I asked.

It is sad that you think NOT KEEPING the Commandments is pleasing in God's sight. Murder is great and adultery makes God's heart glad and when one lies, God gets a warm and fuzzy feeling?

 

[john832]

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I see this word love emphasized a lot, but funny thing, there are certain scriptures that are not posted in regard to love...

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Seems you have a very superficial understanding of the book of Galatians and that is the ONLY book you seem to ever quote.

Christ says this...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

What do you suppose He meant by that?

 

[john832]

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

How about this one...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Now which Commandments do you suppose Christ was referring to? Let's let Christ answer...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The Ten Commandments.

 

[john832]

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Great! Now how do you love God?

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

How do you love your neighbor?

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Love is not some sentimental, sticky feeling, it is an action. Love is keeping the Commandments.

 

[Timeline]

How about this one...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Now which Commandments do you suppose Christ was referring to? Let's let Christ answer...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The Ten Commandments.

I counted six.

 

[john832]

Lets expand and put it in context

Matthew 5

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.​( Jesus fulfilled it)
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. ( They kept the Sabbath rigorously)
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgmemt.
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire (This is above Law)

What does it mean to fulfill the Law?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

So, taken in context with other quotes from Christ, what does it mean to fulfill the Law? Did Christ keep it so we don't have to? Let's apply that to #6. Did Christ keep the sixth Commandment so we don't have to?

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Paul calls murder unrighteousness.

1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

Peter says we should not be a murderer (or a thief, or a busybody).

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

John says a murder does not have eternal life.

So did Christ keep the Law so that we don't have to? or did He do this...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

 

[john832]

What is my righteousness. I meant, the Pharisees would not comb their hair on the Sabbath. Because they might comb out a grain of dirt and that would be considered work. Wow, then how can I be more righteous than they were?

Hmmm, you are using the Pharisees for your standard instead of the Bible and the Law of God and I am the legalist?

 

[john832]

Oh goodness..................SALVATION is a FREE GIFT and that of GRACE through FAITH............

SANCTIFICATION is where we continue our walk with Christ striving to be Christ-like..........

there is a huge difference between Salvation and Sanctification...............

"faith without works is dead" is referring to Sanctification ............. NOT SALVATION!

................goodness...........

And on this we are in complete agreement.

 

[john832]

Oh, maybe I get it. Its a free gift but after we receive it we must earn it?

Well, let's ask it this way, it is free to any and all? A serial child molester is justified, reconciled and saved without a change in behavior? That the way you see it? There is no repentance from dead works?

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

You seem to be stumbling on the very first of the basic doctrines.

 

[john832]

Yes we will be judge by how strongly our faith is in the cross and not by our works.

You are making this up, right?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[john832]

So you do all these things and that's great. But if not for the cross then what?

That is what you cannot seem to put together, Christ justifies us and reconciles us but we must then obey God. God is not in the business of giving eternal life to disobedient brats that will cause heartache and pain on a grand scale thorughout eternity to all around them.

 

[john832]

It is sad that "I can do anything through Christ who strengthens me" for some is just a punch line...oh wait a minute, have I not said that already?
Why does one always suggest that keeping the commandments is not out of love of God when the Christ clearly teaches that all the law and the prophets hang on "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind' and ‘love your neighbor as yourself'?
He does not teach all the law and the prophets are replaced by such, does He?

Real love is keeping the Commandments...

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

It is sad that there are those who have a know better than God Himself.

 

[john832]

I counted six.

Ah, so then we don't need to worry about having another god before God? We bow to statues and idols? We tak God's name in vain? We break the Sabbath?

Or was Christ pointing something out to this young man?