Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[newbirth]

Thanks for your good words. You have nailed Satan's end time deception on the head, and God has ordain for the professed church to believe the lies of Satan and never to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH in Jesus. After the Rapture and the wrath of God, there will not be ONE believer left on the earth at Jesus' second coming. Then at Jesus' second coming the whole nation of Israel will be saved and enter into the millennium in their old bodies and rule ,with us and Jesus, for the 1,000 yrs. Love to all, Hoffco

It gives me no joy to see how easily some are led away from the truth [SUP]28 [/SUP]And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[VCO]

Yes God does not force, ever, why? Because if forced ever, then it can't be love

PLUS if HE forced Believers to submit to HIM, we would be nothing more than biological robots, and GOD WOULD NOT BE GLORIFIED.

Leviticus 10:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And Moses said to Aaron, "This is what the LORD spoke, saying: 'By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; And before all the people I must be glorified.' " So Aaron held his peace.

God is glorified ONLY when we choose to submit to HIM our LOVE FOR HIM.

 

[VCO]

Christ willingly went to the cross, no murder happened, Christ chose, free will Brother

Many do not understand that Crucifixion was a very, very SLOW way to die. It frequently took three days or more.

The soldiers were coming to break the legs to quicken the death, so that He would not be on the Cross on Sabbath; and they were SHOCKED to find that He was already dead.

Luke 23:46 (ASV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost.

You are right, they did not kill HIM, He died willingly.

 

[VCO]

So you agree?

OH YES, There is but ONE Saving Faith. Old Testament Saints were not saved because of what they DID, but rather WHY THEY DID WHAT THEY DID.

Old Testament saints "Believed GOD, unto receiving Messiah as LORD."

New Testament saints "Believed GOD, unto receiving Messiah as LORD."

Thus both O.T. saints and N.T. saints are both part of the Bride of Christ.

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

Thus if we can find out how GOD Saved just one man, we will know how He Saves all men that come to HIM.

Romans 4:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.

The only thing one NEEDS to understand, is what a JEW or Hebrew means by "believed God", and unlike the modern day English usage of the term, it meant ONLY to put one's whole TRUST in what or WHO he was claiming to BELIEVE.

 

[VCO]

Some are always learning but never learning. Satan said to Eve, if you eat of the fruit you will not surly die. Now he is saying to some only "believe" no actions required and you will surly live same deception. If you have faith as a mustard seed the smallest of seeds that grows into a huge tree.Where did that deposit of faith go? Time for debate is coming to a close it is time for prayer and intercession.

And perhaps even time to go HOME!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmGiu9JfbIs

 

[homwardbound]

It gives me no joy to see how easily some are led away from the truth [SUP]28 [/SUP]And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

So, Brother whom are you saying this to? Are you a Judge? How would you know who is who, are you God to make the call onto those that know it is by belief that changes them , that know yes they deserve death and have come to know the truth it is all God.
Did God ask for your help in Son going to the cross for your evil? God asked for no ones help. Son who was manifested by Father through Mary, who bore Jesus as a virgin, was born perfect and remained perfect through out his life here on earth for us. His death was and is our cleansing to Father.
So that if one asks Father, one gets new life in Father, in Spirit and truth, forsaking all mankind's ________________ self righteousness, that masquerades as God's and is not, Glad the time is near to roll up the scroll, to end evil once totally and for all, satan has masqueraded long enough, time to be seen as to which is which and who is who, with all the minions that are of the flesh nature to be revealed
[h=3]1 John 2:14-29[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. [SUP]29 [/SUP]If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[homwardbound]

Many do not understand that Crucifixion was a very, very SLOW way to die. It frequently took three days or more.

The soldiers were coming to break the legs to quicken the death, so that He would not be on the Cross on Sabbath; and they were SHOCKED to find that He was already dead.

Luke 23:46 (ASV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost.

You are right, they did not kill HIM, He died willingly.

Thank you Brother
Yes, yes and yes, is what is and stays in him for us. Yes I (Christ) did this for you, you and you over there, and for all, all that is left for you is to beleive and be new as I (Christ) called it to be. when I (Christ) said this:
John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

 

[newbirth]

So, Brother whom are you saying this to? Are you a Judge? How would you know who is who, are you God to make the call onto those that know it is by belief that changes them , that know yes they deserve death and have come to know the truth it is all God.
Did God ask for your help in Son going to the cross for your evil? God asked for no ones help. Son who was manifested by Father through Mary, who bore Jesus as a virgin, was born perfect and remained perfect through out his life here on earth for us. His death was and is our cleansing to Father.
So that if one asks Father, one gets new life in Father, in Spirit and truth, forsaking all mankind's ________________ self righteousness, that masquerades as God's and is not, Glad the time is near to roll up the scroll, to end evil once totally and for all, satan has masqueraded long enough, time to be seen as to which is which and who is who, with all the minions that are of the flesh nature to be revealed
1 John 2:14-29

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. [SUP]29 [/SUP]If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

I judge no man it is the word of God which is a two edge sword it cuts the speaker and those to whom it is spoken to. Who wants to be disobedient let him be. The word of God is clear on such things I always try to use scriptures in context and not my own opinion . Many scriptures I have quoted but they fall on deaf ears ...
[h=3]James 1:21-25[/h]King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]21 [/SUP]Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.



are those my words? So when a man find excuses to not be a doer of the word am I judging him NO it is the word that gives life, he who have not the word working in him have not life. And God is very particular about his word
[h=3]Titus 3:9-11[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

 

[newbirth]

The problem I see is we have this tendency to mix before the cross and after the cross
Before under the stringency of Law. for perfection.
After the cross; perfection is done by Christ, the only flesh that ever pleased God period or ever will.
And by the cross all sin has and is condemned to flesh nature, all of us that are born from Woman, just a fact Jack
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

After the cross in the resurrected Christ is there is a completed change in Spirit and truth where no sin can occur

And truly what is a sin as bottom line it to not love. that would be the greatest of the Law of the Ten commandments. The summation of all Law
First and foremost to Love God with all, giving up self to God and God alone
And the second is much like the first love your neighbor as you love yourself, then take this one deeper as much as you are loved by God through the cross
So under Law before the cross and freed from the stress of the Law in trying to produce it after the death, burial and resurrected Christ
There is a difference is there not?

So how do you LOVE ...
This is how God says to do it
[h=3]1 Corinthians 13[/h]King James Version (KJV)

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


1Peter1
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Do you see... born again ... by the word
Do you see ...obeying the truth...John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 

[feedm3]

Good passages, and not all the ears are deaf.

This world is very evil, if we look what's on TV, internet, everywhere, sin is being pushed on us from every angle, it is a constant battle.

What is very sad, and many that profess their belief in God, have also been deceived by "pastors" and other doctrines that have been invented by man, just for the cause of holding on to sin, and making excuses in order to have a good conscience while committing them.

Those who say, "He died for our sins,". Yes he did, but he died so that we may have the ability to "repent" (Acts 2:38, 3:19) and be washed in the blood of Christ (Acts 2:38, 22:19, I Jn 1:5-9). That is God's grace, that we may be washed from our sins.

He did not die so the we may continue in sin. That is blasphemy and the Bible does not teach this in any way.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

Does this not imply that he is NOT the author of salvation unto all that disobey? What about disobeying believers that refuse to repent? Are they saved?

Notice these verses, and I will also debunk the arguments concerning these without ever leaving the immediate context:
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Arguemnt: "These people were under the law of Moses":
Counter: obviously not. They are being told not to forsake the "assembling of ourselves together". This is the church assembly that the Christians met on the first day of the week. Is Paul (or the heb writer) including himself? Yes "ourselves". He was not still going to any kind of Mosaic meetings.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

I have seen so many here try to dance around this passage as it is a thorn in the side of every Faith alone advocate.
A child can understand these passages they are so clear.

"If we sin willfully" (continue in, without repentance). Not slip up and make a mistake and sin, none of us are perfect. But this is about those who REMAIN in sin. Constantly, no repentance, teaching all they need is there "dead" faith - James 2:17

So if we sin willfully there remains NO MORE SACRIFCE FOR OUR SINS. Can we go to heaven without it?

Also notice he said there "REMAINS" no more sacrifice. Indicating these people did have the sacrifice (why "remains" is used) and were in danger of Losing it.

once agian proving they were Christians, and proving once saved always saved dead wrong.

Next verse, what this "believer" can expect as consequence for willful continuous sin:

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Next verse, he compares these believers, with those under the law of Moses: (once again proving they are not under this law or the comparison would not make sense)
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses 'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace

The meaning here is clear: Those under Moses' law died without mercy for disobeying that covenant. How much of a worse punishment do we think we deserve who are disobeying under the covenant made with the Son of God, and have thrown Grace away that was given by his death?

Obliviously works (obedience which is our "duty" Luke 17:10) is just as important as faith when it comes to salvation. Without it our faith is dead (James 2:17) Without faith, our obedience (works) are useless, likewise without works our faith is useless.

You cant have one without the other, because true faith will have works of obedience.

I know someone will hit me with Eph chapter 2, I love explaining what paul is really saying there. So bring it on - lol

Have a good one people

 

[SeaBass]

Never said one does not have free choice, only that their is only one choice left after the cross

So man does not need any miraculous "empowerment" apart from the word by the Holy Spirit to come to Christ. Man has within him the ability to choose to come to Christ himself upon being taught, hearing and learning God's word.
Therefore man is not totally depraved and unable to come to Christ of his own choice.

 

[SeaBass]

Not actually the Bible itself, rather the truth of the Bible is what does the setting free

But man upon being taught, hearing and learning the word of God chooses of his own will to come to Christ. So no miraculous intervention, apart from the word, by the Holy Spirit is needed.

 

[SeaBass]

So we, or just you are in and out with God one day you obey, the next you don't. Is this what you are saying?

What I am saying in this thread is no works = no salvation.

After 1000's of posts I have yet to see one post showing one obtaining salvation and maintaining salvation without ever doing any obedient works or good works.

 

[SeaBass]

So man kinds work is useless if Christ never went to the cross for us
So it is all Christ for us and is none of us is it?

Belief, is useless without God's sacrifice for us

If Christ did not die, salvation would not be possible. But Christ did die on the cross for every man, Heb 2:9 yet every man will not be saved for every man will not obey, Heb 5:9. So obedience to Christ does save for Christ did die.

 

[SeaBass]

A Spiritual one only

Read Mk 2:1-5 how the men worked to remove part of the roof of the house Jesus was in and lowered the sick man down to Jesus and verse 5 says "Jesus saw their faith". The physical work these men did that Jesus saw is called faith.

 

[SeaBass]

God is Faithful to carry on the good works God started in the ones that beleive, even if one does not do them at first.
Kind of like an apple hanging on the tree branch.

when the apple is first born in an through the tree branch is it a perfect apple?

God works in those that obey Him and continues to work in those that continue to obey Him.

 

[SeaBass]

Not if sealed by Father thanks to Christ when on that day they did believe
People get mad, do against truth, in being angered over circumstances and do walk away, saying things like I won't have anything to do with God
So will God disown them? Will God forsake them? People do by our actions and reactions, yet God does not
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

So maybe time for those that have left or pondering it, think deep, God does just love you. It is this world that does not, and the rain falls on everyone good or bad. There is no distinction as to who to fall on good or bad

Eph 1:13 the church at Ephesus was "sealed" by some 25-30 years later they became unsealed, Rev 2;1-7.

Nothing says seals cannot be broken. The Greek word for sealed in Eph 1:13 is sphragizō as used in Mt 27:66. Was the seal sphragizō in Mt 27:66 broken?

 

[SeaBass]

Christ willingly went to the cross, no murder happened, Christ chose, free will Brother

No murder happened? No innocent man was murdered?

 

[SeaBass]

That is not true, God is not wicked ever and never has been even if one posts from the first Testament as if God is. God is not and if you believe God is, I am getting out of the way
In reverent fear of God almighty, who is not against us at all. It is us harming others that is what God is against, get it. I think you might already know this, I suspect this

If, as some say, foreknowledge necessitates predetermination then God did murder an innocent man on a cross.

 

[SeaBass]

Yes God does not force, ever, why? Because if forced ever, then it can't be love

Explain this to those that think man has no free will but man can only do as forced/predetermined by God to do.