Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[homwardbound]

OH YES, There is but ONE Saving Faith. Old Testament Saints were not saved because of what they DID, but rather WHY THEY DID WHAT THEY DID.

Old Testament saints "Believed GOD, unto receiving Messiah as LORD."

New Testament saints "Believed GOD, unto receiving Messiah as LORD."

Thus both O.T. saints and N.T. saints are both part of the Bride of Christ.

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

Thus if we can find out how GOD Saved just one man, we will know how He Saves all men that come to HIM.

Romans 4:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.

The only thing one NEEDS to understand, is what a JEW or Hebrew means by "believed God", and unlike the modern day English usage of the term, it meant ONLY to put one's whole TRUST in what or WHO he was claiming to BELIEVE.

Which is why I stick with "Godjustloveusall" as in the blog FREED AT LAST Thanks might be some gold nuggets over there as there are all over the place in this world, as God leads and reveals this, we are all shown this amazing love whether one works or not. it is when I came to the end of me and saw I deserve death no matter what I do or not do, that is when things began to change in me as in my view to Father's view through Son

 

[SeaBass]

The problem I see is we have this tendency to mix before the cross and after the cross
Before under the stringency of Law. for perfection.
After the cross; perfection is done by Christ, the only flesh that ever pleased God period or ever will.
And by the cross all sin has and is condemned to flesh nature, all of us that are born from Woman, just a fact Jack
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

After the cross in the resurrected Christ is there is a completed change in Spirit and truth where no sin can occur

And truly what is a sin as bottom line it to not love. that would be the greatest of the Law of the Ten commandments. The summation of all Law
First and foremost to Love God with all, giving up self to God and God alone
And the second is much like the first love your neighbor as you love yourself, then take this one deeper as much as you are loved by God through the cross
So under Law before the cross and freed from the stress of the Law in trying to produce it after the death, burial and resurrected Christ
There is a difference is there not?

Isa 64:6 is taken out of context where the context is talking about those in their iniquity.

Why is it Isa 64:5 never gets quoted? Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness,those that remember thee in thy ways: God meets/entreats/helps those that work righteousness and are not seen as filthy rags.

 

[SeaBass]

GOD's predetermined plan, is so absolutely a SURE THING, that is is equal to a DONE DEAL. Besides:

2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

BUt did GOd predetermined the Jews against their will to crucify Christ?

 

[homwardbound]

I judge no man it is the word of God which is a two edge sword it cuts the speaker and those to whom it is spoken to. Who wants to be disobedient let him be. The word of God is clear on such things I always try to use scriptures in context and not my own opinion . Many scriptures I have quoted but they fall on deaf ears ...
James 1:21-25

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]21 [/SUP]Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.



are those my words? So when a man find excuses to not be a doer of the word am I judging him NO it is the word that gives life, he who have not the word working in him have not life. And God is very particular about his word
Titus 3:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Again I ask, are you saying this to me, are you making a judgment on me as what?
Who are you perceiving me to be, please be frank to me. Have I condemned you or anyone, please show me
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now nocondemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And I do not claim to be perfect, I do claim God to be perfect and I do claim to believe in God's perfection for me and all that believe God

 

[homwardbound]

So how do you LOVE ...
This is how God says to do it
1 Corinthians 13

King James Version (KJV)

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


1Peter1
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Do you see... born again ... by the word
Do you see ...obeying the truth...John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Yes agreed, but how can our carnal natures do it from verse 4-13, unless God imputes it?

 

[SeaBass]

Why do you always say MUST DO, instead of WILL DO?

Just as Jesus said a man MUST be born again, a Christian MUST do good works to maintain his salvation. Doing those good works is NOT an option for the Christian.

There is no certainty/guarantee that a Christian "will" do those good works, for he can quite believing and fall away. But if he desires salvation then he "must" do those good works.

 

[SeaBass]

Doing GOOD WORKS because I HAVE TO, is the WRONG MOTIVE.

Doing GOOD WORKS because I WANT TO BECAUSE I LOVE HIM, is the RIGHT MOTIVE.

My point is what if a Christian quit "wanting" to do those good works, will he be saved anyway? No.

So it's more than just "want to" but a "must".

 

[SeaBass]

John 6:37 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Revelation 3:20 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

James 4:8 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Jn 6:37 the verb "cometh" is present tense showing an ongoing sustained action, not just a one time or sporadic action. Those that quit coming will be cast out.

Rev 3:20 men must choose of their own free will to open the door, so the door being opened or closed is controlled by man. Christ does not kick the door in forcing His entrance.

James 4:8 man choose of his own free will to draw near to God or not.

 

[feedm3]

my two cents:

Jesus was willingly murdered.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain
Also, God did not predestine the Jews to do so, he knew what they would choose due to His foreknowledge.

Yet the blame of Jesus being crucified is the Jews fault, not predestination, it was a free will choice: which is why he said "ye have taken"

:

 

[homwardbound]

So man does not need any miraculous "empowerment" apart from the word by the Holy Spirit to come to Christ. Man has within him the ability to choose to come to Christ himself upon being taught, hearing and learning God's word.
Therefore man is not totally depraved and unable to come to Christ of his own choice.

In reply to all replies to you:
This is what I see; God loves and loved me so much along with you and all the world, that I when saw this, became undone, and saw my own personal depravity and need for a Savior, known as Jesus Christ, and have submitted all of me unto Father by Son
And now today am a responder to this love in sincerity to Father, and by this can't intentionally, willfully harm a fly ever
Whether this is viewed as a work or not, that is not the issue to me. Everyone has a view, whether right or wrong
Bottom line how are we all going to respond to God going to the cross for our sins and the whole world's
The OP is "Salvation not possible without works" And truthfully this judment is God's not mine or yours, or anyone's is it?
I beleive and learned and am still learning to give my whole, all self to God to mold me and correct me as God sees fit.

Is this true for you too, I think and hope so, in order to finally communicate in truth to each other, and not make Judgment of each other, listening

 

[homwardbound]

my two cents:

Jesus was willingly murdered.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain
Also, God did not predestine the Jews to do so, he knew what they would choose due to His foreknowledge.

Yet the blame of Jesus being crucified is the Jews fault, not predestination, it was a free will choice: which is why he said "ye have taken"

:

But not by Father, Father told Son to allow this, to make an open spectacle of those that Murdered his Son, them not knowing what the result would bring. The resurrected Christ in Spirit and truth, resting at the right hand of Father, making and is made constant intercession for us to go to Father in our time of need. Now for me this is 24/7, as is what I keep getting shown, that I am no longer of this world only in it as an ambassador to proclaim "God just love you" now time for us to see that and respond to this as one does not care or they do and are thankful or just walk away
That is it to me, either beleive God and be led by God or not

 

[SeaBass]

The problem here is not rightly dividing the word of truth. For example, if the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were gospels for Israel. Acts is the book that records the transition from the Israel program, which was put on hold, to the Gentile program. Israel was being called as a nation to repent of their sin of rejecting their savior, Jesus. After that one year which was prophesied by Jesus in Luke 13:6-9, a new gospel hid from all, a mystery revealed unto Paul, was given. It is the gospel of grace and peace. Grace because it is a free gift, free provision for our justification and sanctification. Peace because it is secure eternally. Our foundational doctrine comes from Romans.

To say one needs to do works to maintain salvation, then what for did Jesus say "it is finished"? Our faith in the complete work of Jesus bearing the sins of the world on the cross is what saves us. For if we do works, then how can it be given by grace, for grace can be only be given as a free gift. If it be works, then it be a wage and the wages of sin is death.

Jesus' work was finished in fulfilling His Father's will in coming to earth and dying for the sins of mankind. It is man's work to obey Christ. Matt 25; 1 Jn 3:17; Eph 2:10 show it is not possible for a Christian to remain saved without doing good works.

Romans 5:
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

.....
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

so now I tell you that I am eternally made righteous by Jesus all through a transaction of me believing Him to be true.

Romans 6:


6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?


2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

--- here we find out that we shouldn't continue in sin because we are dead to sin. But how were we made dead unto sin? Are we dead? Obviously not. Is sin dead? Again do I need to ask? It is our relationship to sin that is dead. It's dominion over us is dead. How did this happen?....



3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

---important to know that there are many kinds of baptisms in the Bible. ( see Matt 3:11) for example. Baptizing is just purification unto sanctification giving a new identification. See numbers 8:7 where the Levites are being purified unto sanctification to receive their identity of priesthood before God and the rest of Israel. We were baptized into Jesus getting a new identity which is redeemed and so being justified unto eternal life (Romans 3:24). So we find out that we are made dead to sin by Jesus' death.

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

In Mt 3:11 John was not speaking to anyone today and therefore not promising any of those baptisms to anyone today.

The one baptism Paul speaks of in Eph 4:5 is the human administered water baptism of Christ's great commissiuon that lasts till the end of time.

---it must be understood that we could not walk in this newness of life because in our own righteousness as Isaiah 64:6 says our righteousness are rags before God, but we were imputed righteousness (Romans 4:24) through our saving faith (Romans 4:21) and now sin having no more dominion over us we have the power of God's grace to live a sanctified life. Like He provided for our justification, Jesus provided for our sanctification. now all you have to do is believe that is knowing, that is believing...

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

----its like Jesus is telling you that the chains of sin are off and now all you have to do is believe it. It is sin trying to convince you daily that you are to serve him (ie sin). But here Jesus is saying that he gave up his life to die that you old man be crucified. Your old man is that which is your old identity in Adam, that you are a servant to sin. Now you are not because of Jesus' death.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Can we celebrate?!?!


8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.


10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.


11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Isa 64:6 is all to often taken out of context. Obeying/doing God's righteousness is not filthy rags, see Isa 64:5. If we substitute "filthy rags" for "obey"/obedience to God then the following verses now read:

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he filthy rags by the things which he suffered;

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of savlation to all them that have filthy rags.

2 Thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that have no filthy rags of our Lord Jesus Christ:

---know and reckon yourself to be dead unto sin for death and sin have no dominion over us.



Our sanctified life has nothing to do with our justification unto eternal life. Our sanctified life does impact our rewards at the judgement seat of Christ. 2 Timothy 2:19-21 tells us that we should lived santified and The Lord has sealed those that are his and He knows them that are his and we should part from sin but in His great house he knows that there will be those of gold and silver and those of wood and earth. If you want to be a vessel of honour then rightly divide the word of truth and you will learn how to live a sanctified life.

2 Timothy 2:

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.


21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.


---there is so much more but that is all I have time for tonight. Grace and peace to you in Jesus Christ.

2 Tim 2:21 is a work. Can a Christian still maintain his salvation without purging himself? No.

 

[homwardbound]

my two cents:

Jesus was willingly murdered.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain
Also, God did not predestine the Jews to do so, he knew what they would choose due to His foreknowledge.

Yet the blame of Jesus being crucified is the Jews fault, not predestination, it was a free will choice: which is why he said "ye have taken"

:

Which:
Colossians 2:15 and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

[feedm3]

But not by Father, Father told Son to allow this, to make an open spectacle of those that Murdered his Son, them not knowing what the result would bring. The resurrected Christ in Spirit and truth, resting at the right hand of Father, making and is made constant intercession for us to go to Father in our time of need. Now for me this is 24/7, as is what I keep getting shown, that I am no longer of this world only in it as an ambassador to proclaim "God just love you" now time for us to see that and respond to this as one does not care or they do and are thankful or just walk away
That is it to me, either beleive God and be led by God or not

I agree, the Father is not the one who murdered Christ, he as Jesus did, allowed it to happen. His foreknowledge knew what would happen, and therefore he used it to usher in the NT salvation, through His blood that he allowed to be shed for our sins.

 

[VCO]

Just as Jesus said a man MUST be born again, a Christian MUST do good works to maintain his salvation. Doing those good works is NOT an option for the Christian.

There is no certainty/guarantee that a Christian "will" do those good works, for he can quite believing and fall away. But if he desires salvation then he "must" do those good works.

You must use a WAY WIDER definition of what is a Christian than I do. If you do not come through the very narrow gate of receiving HIM a LORD, meaning a TOTAL submission to HIM as Master and LORD, then you are ONLY on the broad road which is full of those who fell for a counterfeit of Christianity.

You do understand that when you are born again it is the HOLY SPIRIT coming into you and bringing your human spirit to ETERNAL LIFE?

Ephesians 2:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And you were dead in your trespasses and sins
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

John 6:47 (ESV)
[SUP]47 [/SUP] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.


At that same moment of Faith, the Holy Spirit IMMERSES us into the spiritual body of CHRIST. THAT is the Baptism that saves.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

So YES you MUST BE born again to enter Heaven. BUT HE SAYS AT THAT VERY MOMENT THAT WE HAVE THAT CONVERSION FROM UNBELIEF TO BELIEF: You are saved by grace!

That seed of Faith the size of a mustard seed will grow into a huge plant producing fruit;
if it really happened. It will produce LOVE FOR GOD, which WILL manifest itself in the form of willing obedience,
NOT OUT OF SENSE OF I "MUST DO", but because want to LOVE HIM and show our LOVE for HIM.

Even Jesus said it:

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me (have been saved), you will keep My commands.

And you have to change that to MUST KEEP, rather than humble yourself bowing to HIS finished work, and admitting He already saved me, SO I will LOVE HIM and will show my LOVE by my obedience, trusting the HOLY SPIRIT in you to give you the power to obey like that.

Why can't you say will keep?

 

[newbirth]

GOD's predetermined plan, is so absolutely a SURE THING, that is is equal to a DONE DEAL. Besides:

2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

If it was predetermined, a done deal why would he give us the word (or ministry)of reconciliation. That's the free ride bro but you gotta get on the bus. Not only that you have to live worthy of being on that bus. Not only that but you have to stay on the bus to receive the free gift at the end of the journey..

 

[feedm3]

Hello, I just wanted to chime in and say, it really does not matter how we word salvation by faith/works.

Basically it the same thing.

1. If the saved WILL do works because they are saved, then it is by works (obedience) salvation is qualified.

So if by works faith can be determined dead or alive, then works play an essential part in our salvation.

If your saying a believer with TRUE faith, will do works, because he is saved, then you are saying, if a believer does NOT have works, his faith is dead, and is not saved. therefore you're saying we MUST have works. Saying "will have works" doesn't change the fact we MUST have them in order to have true faith which is salvation.

Ephesians 2:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And you were dead in your trespasses and sins
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Great passages. They were DEAD but repented (an obedient work that MUST be done) and now they are alive.

God's grace allowed this because He died for us when we did not deserve it, making it possible for us to obey this commands and be washed of sin.

John 6:47 (ESV)
[SUP]47 [/SUP] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Yes, and as you said, he WILL have good works, if not he does not have Eternal life, so his faith is qualified by obedience, therfore it is absoulutly essential to this believer's salvation.

So YES you MUST BE born again to enter Heaven. BUT HE SAYS AT THAT VERY MOMENT THAT WE HAVE THAT CONVERSION FROM UNBELIEF TO BELIEF: You are saved by grace!

Of course, it is Grace, not of works, no one was so great and pure God sent his son, no one can boast. It is purely undeserved grace, a gift, this does not imply that obedience has nothing to do with grace.

Disobedience cause our grace to be "in vain".:

2 Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain

Paul is telling this to the Corintian church, believers, Christians. Warning them not receive the grace of God in vain.

This would once again be disobedience. Heb 10:25-27, willful sin leads to the sacrifice Christ made of no effect upon the believer.

Gal 5 "..Christ has become of no effect ye have fallen from Grace"

That seed of Faith the size of a mustard seed will grow into a huge plant producing fruit;
if it really happened. It will produce LOVE FOR GOD, which WILL manifest itself in the form of willing obedience,
NOT OUT OF SENSE OF I "MUST DO", but because want to LOVE HIM and show our LOVE for HIM.

What does it matter if we say, "I must obey to obtain salvation" or "I will obey because im saved"?

The outcome and necessity for obedience is the same in each statement. Either we obey and are saved, or we do not obey and were not saved, bottom line we must obey.

Saying it either way produces the same outcome.

Anyone who thinks obeience is not essential is fooling themselves. It's not putting trust in yourself to obey what God has told us. It's putting trust in God to know we must do what he told us.

Luke 17:10 10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do

After we have obeyed what is commanded, we say we are still unprofitable servants which only have done our duty.

That is the humility in obeience. It is prideful to think it is not a MUST to keep our "duty".

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me (have been saved), you will keep My commands.

It is silly to say Jesus said "you will keep" and that does not mean we "must keep". It's the same meaning either way you say it. if he is telling me in order to love Him I will keep his commands, then I must keep his commands in order to love him.

If you cant see that, then try using implication.

If one will keep his commands if they love Him? the one who does NOT keep his commands does not love him.

Thereforeone MUST keep his commands. Seriously? This is simple logic that does not even need to be explained.

And you have to change that to MUST KEEP, rather than humble yourself bowing to HIS finished work, and admitting He already saved me, SO I will LOVE HIM and will show my LOVE by my obedience, trusting the HOLY SPIRIT in you to give you the power to obey like that.

Yes "must keep" because a saved person "will keep". Otherwise not saved. So either way you put it, even you believe it's a must obviously if it shows saved or unsaved.

Why can't you say will keep?

Because in the way you're saying it, you're not staying true to the word used here in this passage.

The word "keep"

from teros (a watch; perh. akin to G-2334); to guard (from loss or injury, prop. by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G-5442, which is prop. to prevent escaping; and from G-2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), i.e. to note (a prophecy; fig. to fulfil a command); by impl. to detai




Also this word is in IMPERATIVE form. Which mean "you MUST keep" is the correct way of putting this.

Take a look for yourself:
ηρέω tēreō Tense: Aorist
Voice: Active
Mood: Imperative <--------------a "Must"

* The Aorist Active Imperative verb form occurs 375 times in the New Testament.

There is no arguing with Greek, we Must (imperative) keep his commands.

Take care,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello, I just wanted to chime in and say, it really does not matter how we word salvation by faith/works.

Basically it the same thing.

1. If the saved WILL do works because they are saved, then it is by works (obedience) salvation is qualified.

So if by works faith can be determined dead or alive, then works play an essential part in our salvation.

If your saying a believer with TRUE faith, will do works, because he is saved, then you are saying, if a believer does NOT have works, his faith is dead, and is not saved. therefore you're saying we MUST have works. Saying "will have works" doesn't change the fact we MUST have them in order to have true faith which is salvation.



Great passages. They were DEAD but repented (an obedient work that MUST be done) and now they are alive.

God's grace allowed this because He died for us when we did not deserve it, making it possible for us to obey this commands and be washed of sin.



Yes, and as you said, he WILL have good works, if not he does not have Eternal life, so his faith is qualified by obedience, therfore it is absoulutly essential to this believer's salvation.



Of course, it is Grace, not of works, no one was so great and pure God sent his son, no one can boast. It is purely undeserved grace, a gift, this does not imply that obedience has nothing to do with grace.

Disobedience cause our grace to be "in vain".:

2 Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain

Paul is telling this to the Corintian church, believers, Christians. Warning them not receive the grace of God in vain.

This would once again be disobedience. Heb 10:25-27, willful sin leads to the sacrifice Christ made of no effect upon the believer.

Gal 5 "..Christ has become of no effect ye have fallen from Grace"



What does it matter if we say, "I must obey to obtain salvation" or "I will obey because im saved"?

The outcome and necessity for obedience is the same in each statement. Either we obey and are saved, or we do not obey and were not saved, bottom line we must obey.

Saying it either way produces the same outcome.

Anyone who thinks obeience is not essential is fooling themselves. It's not putting trust in yourself to obey what God has told us. It's putting trust in God to know we must do what he told us.

Luke 17:10 10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do

After we have obeyed what is commanded, we say we are still unprofitable servants which only have done our duty.

That is the humility in obeience. It is prideful to think it is not a MUST to keep our "duty".





It is silly to say Jesus said "you will keep" and that does not mean we "must keep". It's the same meaning either way you say it. if he is telling me in order to love Him I will keep his commands, then I must keep his commands in order to love him.

If you cant see that, then try using implication.

If one will keep his commands if they love Him? the one who does NOT keep his commands does not love him.

Thereforeone MUST keep his commands. Seriously? This is simple logic that does not even need to be explained.



Yes "must keep" because a saved person "will keep". Otherwise not saved. So either way you put it, even you believe it's a must obviously if it shows saved or unsaved.


Because in the way you're saying it, you're not staying true to the word used here in this passage.

The word "keep"

from teros (a watch; perh. akin to G-2334); to guard (from loss or injury, prop. by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G-5442, which is prop. to prevent escaping; and from G-2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), i.e. to note (a prophecy; fig. to fulfil a command); by impl. to detai




Also this word is in IMPERATIVE form. Which mean "you MUST keep" is the correct way of putting this.

Take a look for yourself:
ηρέω tēreō Tense: Aorist
Voice: Active
Mood: Imperative <--------------a "Must"

* The Aorist Active Imperative verb form occurs 375 times in the New Testament.

There is no arguing with Greek, we Must (imperative) keep his commands.

Take care,

if your saying a work of any type of any kind or of any number must be done. Your basing salvation on your ability and power to do those works. and rejecting the grace of God. end of story.

 

[feedm3]

if your saying a work of any type of any kind or of any number must be done. Your basing salvation on your ability and power to do those works. and rejecting the grace of God. end of story.

Ah, Eg. How have you been? Wondering when you'd find your way to me.

Sorry, you cant just "End" the story because you feel we dont have to do anything to be saved. We've been round and round, you know what's coming, either prove:

1. one can go to heaven without works based solely upon his belief.
or...
2. a saved person will have works, yet if he does not, he is still saved, sense it is not based on any works.
or..
3. Show proper reasoning and logic, for your beleif that by works one shows if he is saved or not (never was i know*) saved, how then works to NOT play any part of our salvation.

You believe if we dont have works then our faith is dead, and we were never saved - right or wrong?

If so, then you believe it is by works our faith is qualified as true faith, therefore being essential to salvation. IF not show how you do not believe this.

You put my entire argument in a quote, did not prove any of it wrong, and just said, end of story. Sorry bud, that does not cut it, just an assertion of opinion with no basis. That can hardly end the story.

Good talking with you tho

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah, Eg. How have you been? Wondering when you'd find your way to me.

Sorry, you cant just "End" the story because you feel we dont have to do anything to be saved. We've been round and round, you know what's coming, either prove:

You have it all backwards.

The question you should be asking is, What can I do to pay for my sin, so I can get to heaven. The answer is simple. without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.

So are you going to shed your own blood to pay for your own sin? And would you shedding your own blood even be enough to pay for your own sin?

1. one can go to heaven without works based solely upon his belief.
or...
2. a saved person will have works, yet if he does not, he is still saved, sense it is not based on any works.
or..
3. Show proper reasoning and logic, for your beleif that by works one shows if he

is saved or not (never was i know*) saved, how then works to NOT play any part of our salvation.

Again your asking the wrong question.

The question is NOT is works done, The question is does one have true faith or mere belief. God determines the answer to this. and saves someone completely when he determines who has true faith Before one work is even done.

You believe if we dont have works then our faith is dead, and we were never saved - right or wrong?

I believe one is saved by faith (true) and not by works. I also believe a licentious person will never be saved (mere belief vs true faith) Works do not enter the equation.

I

f so, then you believe it is by works our faith is qualified as true faith, therefore being essential to salvation. IF not show how you do not believe this.

You put my entire argument in a quote, did not prove any of it wrong, and just said, end of story. Sorry bud, that does not cut it, just an assertion of opinion with no basis. That can hardly end the story.

Good talking with you tho

And my quote still stands.

If you add works of any kind, any type, and any amount to be saved, your trying to save yourself and have rejected the grace of God.