Is Catholic worship Mary?

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T

TaylorTG

Guest
#41
Again, the ignorant should remain ignorant. Didn't the disciples ask Jesus to teach them to pray? And of all people, who did Jesus start with, and He said to them, "When you pray, say: 'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come"... where do people get Mary? Am I so stupid? Be blessed and why not".
The "Hail Mary" prayer is inspired by the opening chapters of the book of Luke. It definitely is scriptural, and if research is done, then intercession from the saints is scriptural as well.





Romans 3:23 (KJV) [SUP]23 [/SUP]For all have sinned[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif], and come short of the glory of God;
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]It's true that we inherit original sin from our shared ancestors. Nevertheless there can be exceptions to any rule, even that one.
[/FONT]



The logic is that since the virgin Mary was God's mother, she is sinless because only pure, untainted trees should be allowed to bear the the purest fruit, God himself.

The virgin Mary is the ark of the New covenant: Jesus Christ. She is the ark from which the savior of the world is born.




The savior of the world is pure and untainted, so how can the one who bore it be tainted?

It certainly is possible for God to override the common rules via his divine authority.
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,780
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#43
I'll throw this one in for good measure regarding 'prayers to' Mary.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,

Besides, I'm not sure of any Scripture support that someone who has passed on hears us except of course Jesus.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#44
You are Cepha and on this cepha, I will build my Church. It is Christ's church. Peter (latinized), Cephus (Hebrew), Cepha (Aramaic) is the rock. The argument of Petra versus Petros is fallacious. No one would name a male using a female name. Also, in Aramaic and Hebrew the words for little rock and big rock are two completely separate words since both Hebrew and Aramaic use adjectives, which Greek tends to include in a word.
Please point out to me where scripture calls Peter a rock. If you need me to I can show you where Christ is the Rock. We can debate the linguistics but we will accomplish nothing. To form a doctrine from one verse and to have that exegesis conflict with other scripture cannot and is not correct. Rome is wrong Peter is not the foundation of the church and Peter was not a pope. Peter was a Jewish fisherman who did not like Gentiles and it took a vision from God to have him go and preach to them. Go figure.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#45
It is true that we believe she was born without sin.
That does not make it true or correct. In fact Mary required the same blood sacrifice that all Jewish believers required in the era. She did see and know her Son as Savior because she needed salvation like every other person in the world.
However, bowing and kneeling are not a form of worship, if it were then all of England would be worshippers of the Queen.
You know you might be right except that I do not recall any Brits bowing to statues or pictures of the Queen. I also do not recall Christ giving any authority to Mary on this earth or in heaven. So without authority a bow of respect is out of order unless you want to bow to everybody.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Sep 10, 2013
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#46
this issue is about more than just mary actually...it really goes back to the 'distinction without a difference' made between worship and 'veneration' at the second council of nicea...basically that council tried to define away the problem with circular logic...'what we do with icons isn't worship because we worship only God...we worship only God because what we do with icons isn't worship'
...so when the saint fathers of the church explain and make the distinction between worship (gr. latreia) and veneration (gr. proskynesis) you find that ridiculous and you call it a "distinction whithout a difference", but when the same saint fathers of the church explain that the trinity is not politheism, you no longer call it a "distinction whithout difference".

EDIT: I suppose that you believe in the trinity.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#47
...so when the saint fathers of the church explain and make the distinction between worship (gr. latreia) and veneration (gr. proskynesis) you find that ridiculous and you call it a "distinction whithout a difference", but when the same saint fathers of the church explain that the trinity is not politheism, you no longer call it a "distinction whithout difference".

EDIT: I suppose that you believe in the trinity.
All born again Christians are saints. A reverent respect for the things of God is wise. Making relics and artwork more than simple things of this world that are subject to decay and one day to be burned with the rest of the world is not really wise. Enjoy art for what it is and worship God for Who He is.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
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#48
You are Cepha and on this cepha, I will build my Church. It is Christ's church. Peter (latinized), Cephus (Hebrew), Cepha (Aramaic) is the rock. The argument of Petra versus Petros is fallacious. No one would name a male using a female name. Also, in Aramaic and Hebrew the words for little rock and big rock are two completely separate words since both Hebrew and Aramaic use adjectives, which Greek tends to include in a word.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:19-22
[SUP]19 [/SUP]So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, [SUP]20 [/SUP]having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, [SUP]21 [/SUP]in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, [SUP]22 [/SUP]in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Matthew 21:42
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Jesus *said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the chief corner stone;
This came about from the Lord,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?


Acts 4:8-12
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people, [SUP]9 [/SUP]if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, [SUP]10 [/SUP]let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. [SUP]11[/SUP]He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”


Matthew 16:13-23
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” [SUP]14 [/SUP]And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” [SUP]16 [/SUP]Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” [SUP]17 [/SUP]And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” [SUP]23 [/SUP]But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”

Isaiah 44:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]‘Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses.
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?

I know of none.’”

1 Peter 2:4-8
[SUP]4[/SUP]And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, [SUP]5 [/SUP]you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For this is contained in Scripture:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone,
And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”


[SUP]7 [/SUP]This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
“The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the very corner stone,”


[SUP]8 [/SUP]and,
A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”;
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
767
113
40
Australia
#49
The "Hail Mary" prayer is inspired by the opening chapters of the book of Luke. It definitely is scriptural, and if research is done, then intercession from the saints is scriptural as well.






[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]It's true that we inherit original sin from our shared ancestors. Nevertheless there can be exceptions to any rule, even that one.
[/FONT]



The logic is that since the virgin Mary was God's mother, she is sinless because only pure, untainted trees should be allowed to bear the the purest fruit, God himself.

The virgin Mary is the ark of the New covenant: Jesus Christ. She is the ark from which the savior of the world is born.




The savior of the world is pure and untainted, so how can the one who bore it be tainted?

It certainly is possible for God to override the common rules via his divine authority.

is this some of the false teaching that Paul was talking about sneaking into the church?
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#50
All born again Christians are saints. A reverent respect for the things of God is wise. Making relics and artwork more than simple things of this world that are subject to decay and one day to be burned with the rest of the world is not really wise. Enjoy art for what it is and worship God for Who He is.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
==========================================================================

notuptome,

a wise statement.

we wanted to share this;

'And Aaron said to them, "break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons,
and your daughters, and bring them to me."

the people complied because the earrings were symbolic of the 'ownership' of the Egyptians.
they sincerely thought that they were doing the right thing, but as we read on, this led
to the 'golden-calf' miraculously popping out of the fire.
Aaron was lying through his teeth, he didn't want to take responsibility for his own actions.
in other words, (one sin led to another).......

but, if we be in Christ, we are wiser and go from glory to glory and from faith to faith.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#51
...so when the saint fathers of the church explain and make the distinction between worship (gr. latreia) and veneration (gr. proskynesis) you find that ridiculous and you call it a "distinction whithout a difference", but when the same saint fathers of the church explain that the trinity is not politheism, you no longer call it a "distinction whithout difference".

EDIT: I suppose that you believe in the trinity.
the same church fathers were not responsible for both doctrines...

the nicene formula of the trinity was established at the first council in 325...the distinction without a difference between worship and 'veneration' was not asserted until 787...over 460 years later...
 
Sep 10, 2013
1,428
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#52
the same church fathers were not responsible for both doctrines...

the nicene formula of the trinity was established at the first council in 325...the distinction without a difference between worship and 'veneration' was not asserted until 787...over 460 years later...
The same Church is responsible for both. The same understanding under the Holy Spirit.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
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#53
Catholic worship is devil worship, it is proven there mystery babalon if you look into it
 
Sep 10, 2013
1,428
19
0
#54
Catholic worship is devil worship, it is proven there mystery babalon if you look into it
Occidental Christianism has fallen into a religion. A masochistic one; some people think that Christ died in order to appease God's wrath.