Apparently you missed my sarcasm and the point that I was making. The ECF's were not infallible so why do you treat them as if they were? I know you don't actually believe they were infallible but you act like what they say must be right because they were around 2000 years ago.
So someone living 2000 years later has a lesser chance of understanding the truth than someone living 2000 years ago? Has the Bible changed in 2000 years? You presented fallible writings from fallible men.
The specific guidance we receive from the Holy Spirit at any given time can only be discerned by the general principles laid down in the Bible. That He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. This is what Christ does (vs. 25) and is not a command for us to do, so my interpretation of the text fits just fine. Jesus is the living word. Acts 11:16 - Then I remembered the word "rhema" of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Is that a command for us to be baptized with the Holy Spirit? Did John baptize with the Holy Spirit? So is this spoken word from the inspired word or something else? Water baptism is merely the picture, not the reality.
Go and baptize them with the Holy Spirit? No. We have here a command from Christ to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. Are we to assume that this is necessary to become saved as well? Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Water baptism did not make them magically make them become disciples of John but their decision to become disciples of John was signified in baptism. Just like becoming a disciple of Jesus is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision that is made prior to becoming water baptized.
What about the moral aspect of the law? Are good works in general detached from the moral aspect of the law? Love God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself is not included in keeping the law? (Matthew 22:37-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Which good works could a Christian accomplish that are not included in loving God with all of our heart, mind and and our neighbor? You are trying to isolate "not saved by works" to an isolated part of the law then teach that we are saved by certain works that are not of the law. The RCC church teaches this as well. Where does Paul teach that?
You didn't answer my question. Is water baptism a work of righteousness or a work of unrighteousness? Was getting water baptized a part of Jesus fulfilling all righteousness or not? How is that a straw man?
So is the law of Moses simply circumcision? What about the moral aspect of the law? Are good works that Christians do detached from loving God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself? You are trying to limit Paul's usage of the word "works" to specific works of the law and create a separate set of works that are detached from the moral aspect of the law and say these works save but those other works don't. This is the same flawed argument that I heard in the RCC.
So which works do save? Show me where Paul said we are "saved by these works" but "not saved by those works." Paul said not of works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works, so Paul is not limiting not saved by works to a specific set of works that the Jews were hung up on in particular but includes any works which precede or follow saving faith in Christ.
No, faith is faith and water baptism is water baptism. We don't get water baptized in order to establish faith but because we have faith. You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but because they are believers. You have a very difficult time making a distinction between the fruit of faith (good works) and the essence of faith (substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen).
You are arguing that water baptism and good works save, just not certain other works. Paul never once said saved by works.
Again, Paul said not of works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works. Faith is believing/trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation. Any acts of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are works. Paul includes these works.
The same point that I made once again in this post. Works are works. There is no saved by these works but not saved by those works. We are saved through faith, not works, not saved through faith and works. It's just that simple.
I dismiss the ECF's on baptismal regeneration (if they all actually taught that) because it's a false doctrine. I wasn't actually trying to prove faith alone by using the ECF's. I was simply showing that salvation through faith in Christ alone and baptismal regeneration are mutually exclusive yet we see both teachings in various writings of the Fathers. It ultimately comes down to THUS SAITH THE LORD, not thus saith the Fathers.
All acts of obedience which follow faith in Christ are works so which acts of obedience are you saying save us after faith and in addition to water baptism? I can see below that you have misinterpreted Hebrews 5:9 to teach salvation by works.
People wind up in error because they don't rightly divide the word of truth and harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching their conclusions. I've seen many people distort passages of Scripture and then patch them together in order to create their so called gospel plan of salvation by works. The heart of the error is not about when and where we live. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that the natural man does not understand and in 2 Corinthians 4:3,4 he says the gospel is hid to those who are blinded in unbelief. That is the heart of the issue of why people end up in error when it comes to the gospel.
And harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching a proper conclusion.
Do you believe that the word "obey" here means that we are saved "by" obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ? If that is the case, then how can you say that you have truly "obeyed" Him (in that sense) unless you have done it completely, 100%? Are you sinless and perfect? Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Without faith, it is impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not keep His commandments or practice righteousness so they don't obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh (Matthew 7:22-23). In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
Actually this Scripture does not refute salvation by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Believers obey Him and unbelievers do not obey Him. Plain and simple.
Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Obedience which follows saving faith in Christ is works. Unbelief joined with salvation by works is not obedience.
So someone living 2000 years later has a lesser chance of understanding the truth than someone living 2000 years ago? Has the Bible changed in 2000 years? You presented fallible writings from fallible men.
The specific guidance we receive from the Holy Spirit at any given time can only be discerned by the general principles laid down in the Bible. That He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. This is what Christ does (vs. 25) and is not a command for us to do, so my interpretation of the text fits just fine. Jesus is the living word. Acts 11:16 - Then I remembered the word "rhema" of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Is that a command for us to be baptized with the Holy Spirit? Did John baptize with the Holy Spirit? So is this spoken word from the inspired word or something else? Water baptism is merely the picture, not the reality.
Go and baptize them with the Holy Spirit? No. We have here a command from Christ to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. Are we to assume that this is necessary to become saved as well? Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Water baptism did not make them magically make them become disciples of John but their decision to become disciples of John was signified in baptism. Just like becoming a disciple of Jesus is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision that is made prior to becoming water baptized.
What about the moral aspect of the law? Are good works in general detached from the moral aspect of the law? Love God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself is not included in keeping the law? (Matthew 22:37-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Which good works could a Christian accomplish that are not included in loving God with all of our heart, mind and and our neighbor? You are trying to isolate "not saved by works" to an isolated part of the law then teach that we are saved by certain works that are not of the law. The RCC church teaches this as well. Where does Paul teach that?
You didn't answer my question. Is water baptism a work of righteousness or a work of unrighteousness? Was getting water baptized a part of Jesus fulfilling all righteousness or not? How is that a straw man?
So is the law of Moses simply circumcision? What about the moral aspect of the law? Are good works that Christians do detached from loving God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself? You are trying to limit Paul's usage of the word "works" to specific works of the law and create a separate set of works that are detached from the moral aspect of the law and say these works save but those other works don't. This is the same flawed argument that I heard in the RCC.
So which works do save? Show me where Paul said we are "saved by these works" but "not saved by those works." Paul said not of works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works, so Paul is not limiting not saved by works to a specific set of works that the Jews were hung up on in particular but includes any works which precede or follow saving faith in Christ.
No, faith is faith and water baptism is water baptism. We don't get water baptized in order to establish faith but because we have faith. You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but because they are believers. You have a very difficult time making a distinction between the fruit of faith (good works) and the essence of faith (substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen).
You are arguing that water baptism and good works save, just not certain other works. Paul never once said saved by works.
Again, Paul said not of works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works. Faith is believing/trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation. Any acts of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are works. Paul includes these works.
The same point that I made once again in this post. Works are works. There is no saved by these works but not saved by those works. We are saved through faith, not works, not saved through faith and works. It's just that simple.
I dismiss the ECF's on baptismal regeneration (if they all actually taught that) because it's a false doctrine. I wasn't actually trying to prove faith alone by using the ECF's. I was simply showing that salvation through faith in Christ alone and baptismal regeneration are mutually exclusive yet we see both teachings in various writings of the Fathers. It ultimately comes down to THUS SAITH THE LORD, not thus saith the Fathers.
All acts of obedience which follow faith in Christ are works so which acts of obedience are you saying save us after faith and in addition to water baptism? I can see below that you have misinterpreted Hebrews 5:9 to teach salvation by works.
People wind up in error because they don't rightly divide the word of truth and harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching their conclusions. I've seen many people distort passages of Scripture and then patch them together in order to create their so called gospel plan of salvation by works. The heart of the error is not about when and where we live. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that the natural man does not understand and in 2 Corinthians 4:3,4 he says the gospel is hid to those who are blinded in unbelief. That is the heart of the issue of why people end up in error when it comes to the gospel.
And harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching a proper conclusion.
Do you believe that the word "obey" here means that we are saved "by" obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ? If that is the case, then how can you say that you have truly "obeyed" Him (in that sense) unless you have done it completely, 100%? Are you sinless and perfect? Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Without faith, it is impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not keep His commandments or practice righteousness so they don't obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh (Matthew 7:22-23). In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
Actually this Scripture does not refute salvation by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Believers obey Him and unbelievers do not obey Him. Plain and simple.
Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Obedience which follows saving faith in Christ is works. Unbelief joined with salvation by works is not obedience.
