Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[eternally-gratefull]

So so showing you the post you responded to, and pasting it in there, still isnt proof of topic??? Too immature for me. see ya

Dude. I responded to you saying we have to work. THATS ALL.. I did not respond to everything you said. Proven by the act I did not cut it in peaces and respond to everything you said (as you see I ALWAYS DO) I made a general observation.

You keep wanting to go off topic with MY POST.. I was speaking of ONE THING ONLY.. Your the one who wants to speak about two events. NOT ME.

Get off your high horse. You do this all the time, because you do not want to actually discuss things, You just want to belittle others. if this makes yuo feel good about yourself. so be it. Your not going to convince anyone else.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You know. Even those who claim to believe the samething as you are seeing through you now. Im done PROVING things to you. It's funny, the PROOF is in the quote in your post. Yet you just dont address and pretend it's not there. Sorry it's clearly not working on either thread.

Have fun trying to explain your condratictions to your fellow OSAS faith only brethren who are now calling you out.

You have enough on your plate just in the two threads your spewing this stuff on.

Go away

You never want to discuss anything.

I posted if you add works.. works was the basis of your post I responded to THATS ALL.

You typically want to twist it and make it somethign else.

if this is the way your bgoing to be, Go away, You have NO DESIRE to discuss anything, just SHOVE YOUR BELIEF system down everyones throats and never listen to what people are saying.

 

[feedm3]

Go away

You never want to discuss anything.

I posted if you add works.. works was the basis of your post I responded to THATS ALL.

You typically want to twist it and make it somethign else.

if this is the way your bgoing to be, Go away, You have NO DESIRE to discuss anything, just SHOVE YOUR BELIEF system down everyones throats and never listen to what people are saying.

I didnt even speak to you first, you came to me, even though we already have been through this whole thing before. I have left you alone for several months. I've seen things you were saying to others i did not agree with, yet i didnt but in or anything.

I wasn't shoving anything down anyone's throat when you jumped in to what me and another were discussing. Notice we liked each other's responses even though we didnt agree? That's discussing. You wont even try that with me. You just want to argue. Of course I am going to respond when your talking directly to me and attacking what I am telling someone else.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I didnt even speak to you first, you came to me, even though we already have been through this whole thing before. I have left you alone for several months. I've seen things you were saying to others i did not agree with, yet i didnt but in or anything.

I wasn't shoving anything down anyone's throat when you jumped in to what me and another were discussing. Notice we liked each other's responses even though we didnt agree? That's discussing. You wont even try that with me. You just want to argue. Of course I am going to respond when your talking directly to me and attacking what I am telling someone else.

dude.

1. You continue to say I believe things I do not
2. I made a specific response to one aspect of your post. And that is ALL I want to discuss. But you refuse (why I have no idea.. maybe your afraid to?)

As usual, you do not want to discuss things. Only what you feel you need to discuss.. Thats why we did not get along before. And why we will not get along in the future Until your ready to actually listen to what someone is saying.

I will like things I agree with. Is that bad? does that mean we can not discuss other things?

You ask me the same questions over and over expecting to get an answer. When an answer would NOT DO ANYTHING to resolve our conflict. I tried to get you to stick on topic. But I guess that was asking to much?

 

[feedm3]

Yes I guess you were asking too much. And if you look since like 2011 at the end of everyone of our "talks". You are saying the same things, your done with me, im a waste of time, blah blah yet you are never really done. You always come back instead of just skiping over my posts like I do yours.

I only respond when you directly address me. So if you are done with me, like you've said 1000 times, please stop directly addressing me.

It only SEEMS like you keep coming back because your not satisfied because you couldn't answer simple questions. That is the only reason i could see someone coming back over and over with the same arguments that keep getting defeated.

Not just by me, but several people. Now even people that are supposed to be on your side. Please by all means, be done with me once and for all

 

[parablepete]

I was reading these last two pages.

I think we all need to take a step back and try to see, What, Why, others are saying what they do. We all claim to be christians here, we all need to show those fruits of kindness, humility, patiences, Love, none of us will ever convert anyone being unkind. I hope my post don't offend anyone. Can we agree on this?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I guess you were asking too much. And if you look since like 2011 at the end of everyone of our "talks". You are saying the same things, your done with me, im a waste of time, blah blah yet you are never really done. You always come back instead of just skiping over my posts like I do yours.

I only respond when you directly address me. So if you are done with me, like you've said 1000 times, please stop directly addressing me.

It only SEEMS like you keep coming back because your not satisfied because you couldn't answer simple questions. That is the only reason i could see someone coming back over and over with the same arguments that keep getting defeated.

Not just by me, but several people. Now even people that are supposed to be on your side. Please by all means, be done with me once and for all

You act as if I responded to you. I made a general comment about what you said. It was not even directed to you. And I did not expect you to respond. I just get sick of people saying we believe things we do not. Would you not get sick of it??

But as usual. You want to twist everything around.

Are you having fun yet??

 

[feedm3]

You act as if I responded to you. I made a general comment about what you said. It was not even directed to you. And I did not expect you to respond. I just get sick of people saying we believe things we do not. Would you not get sick of it??

But as usual. You want to twist everything around.

Are you having fun yet??

Okay, for your future reference, when you not trying to directly speak to someone, do not use personal pronouns such as "if YOU believe" and "Your placing ..". NOt to mention you directly quoted me and responded with "you and your".

SO tell me how this is not directly addressing me?

If it is a general comment, use words like "if ONE believes" and leave the quote out.

Really? Did I really just have to explain that because now your saying were not directly addressing me?

You just disagree with anything I say lol man

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, for your future reference, when you not trying to directly speak to someone, do not use personal pronouns such as "if YOU believe" and "Your placing ..". NOt to mention you directly quoted me and responded with "you and your".

SO tell me how this is not directly addressing me?

If it is a general comment, use words like "if ONE believes" and leave the quote out.

Really? Did I really just have to explain that because now your saying were not directly addressing me?

You just disagree with anything I say lol man

Still will not admit you think I believe things I do not believe?

as for our convo.

1. I made a general response.
2. You responded back. But not to what I said, but to things I did not even talk about.
3. I tried to keep you on topic.
4. You kept going outside of what I SAID
5. Then you got mad.
6. Eventually it gets to the point you say i believe things I do not believe (like you just did earlier today)

see the chain of events?

If you do not want to discuss things, Just let me know. Then again, if you do not. why are you even here?

 

[AllForHIm]

Still will not admit you think I believe things I do not believe?

as for our convo.

1. I made a general response.
2. You responded back. But not to what I said, but to things I did not even talk about.
3. I tried to keep you on topic.
4. You kept going outside of what I SAID
5. Then you got mad.
6. Eventually it gets to the point you say i believe things I do not believe (like you just did earlier today)

see the chain of events?

If you do not want to discuss things, Just let me know. Then again, if you do not. why are you even here?

Actually, it seems he only stated what you implied is your belief. I have been reading through these posts. You said ask if I want to know something so I am asking.

1. How does God determine our faith is true or not at the point of belief? This is freeds question, yet it is a good one. Because if you dont know how, then how do you even know he does this in this manner at this point and time?

2. You said a Christian cannot live in sin based on John's writing, does this mean we cant sin, or we can but it does not count as sin anymore. (I was sent a link to the other thread your on, so ill be asking questions based off that as well)
Because I believe a Christian can sin, we all sin, no one is perfect. We should try not to, but if we do, we are not in danger of hell. is this what you interpret from John's statement, or do you mean, we cant sin, as in our bodies (or whatever) will not allow us to, like sin has become impossible?

3. So are you saying, someone who has confessed Christ, believes he died for their sins, yet does not repent, was never really saved in the first place?

I will stop there. Please provide straight answer as I am only trying to better grasp what you're saying, before I draw a conclusion if we agree or not.

Feel free to ask me anything concerning my views, I will be happy to answer.

 

[feedm3]

Still will not admit you think I believe things I do not believe?

as for our convo.

1. I made a general response.
2. You responded back. But not to what I said, but to things I did not even talk about.
3. I tried to keep you on topic.
4. You kept going outside of what I SAID
5. Then you got mad.
6. Eventually it gets to the point you say i believe things I do not believe (like you just did earlier today)

see the chain of events?

If you do not want to discuss things, Just let me know. Then again, if you do not. why are you even here?

So obviously you're not really done speaking with me. Lets start from the top.

You believe one is saved by faith only and no works - I know this.
You believe one is saved will have works that follow - I know this.
You believe one must show a changed life or he was never really saved to begin with - this is where you flip flop
You also believe that salvation has nothing to do with obedience - this contradicts the above statment.

So you say, there is NOTHING we can do in order to be saved and remain saved.
Yet there is something that if we DO NOT DO (change, turn from sin) we were never saved to begin with.----right? or is there something you wanna change now?

Well they both cannot be true at the same time, You have to choose one or the other.

which is it?

If something that we did not do (change our lives) is the cuase of never having been saved, then it effected salvation. It blocked it. Therefore repentance is a must.

You can keep saying that's not what i am saying..yet you are everyone has heard it.
You can keep running around saying it's off topic, yet everyone knows it is right on the topic of salvation and works.
You can pretend it's me that is backed into the corner, yet everyone can see, i have nothign to hide. I answer anything you want.

So if you wanna really stop talking with me please do. If not then continue on, and clear up this flip flopping paradox.

 

[VCO]

But to be repentant means to be turning away from them. So we cannot just choose to live in sin, and say we are repenent at the same time.

What if one confesses Christ, is baptized into him, etc, yet chooses to live a homosexual lifestyle? This is not repentance, otherwise he would stop this sin.

Therfore, this person is in need of repentance (turning away from this sin) and his/her soul is in danger because of this sin Heb 10:26 ..His sacrifice does not cover "willful sin" which means sin that is not repented of. Present or future.

But the grace of GOd has been given, and allows us to repent, even though we deserve death. IF we choose not to receive this gift, it is our own fault when our sins remain.

Rom 6:
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?<---no that is not what grace is. It is not a ticket for us to sin willfully
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein<---answer: we cant, if we live in sin, then we are not dead to sin, therfore not buried with Christ
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ<----obedience were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life<---repentance

As I heard Dr. John MacArthur say once, "No Christian is sinless, but as he matures spiritually, he will sin less, and less, and less." And in another sermon, I heard him say, "Sinlessness is not the perfection of our Christian Walk, but it certainly is the direction of our Christian Walk." We will not be sinless, until after HE has called the Bride out of this earth to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in heaven, because THAT is when we get the glorified body that cannot even think sin. Until then THANK GOD for 1 John 1:9, and perfect tense verbs used in the book of 1 John.

1 John 1:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Perfect Tense verbs describes a lifestyle, and confess is in the perfect tense. We do not have that primary tense in English, but Greek does. It is therefore a continuous lifestyle of confessing each new sin as we discover it. That is why I prefer to call those Perfect Tense verbs, continuous action tense verbs.

Let show another in 1 John:

1 John 2:3-5 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

YES keep is another Perfect Tense verb describing a continuous lifestyle of strive to KEEP His commandments.

AND WHEN WE STUMBLE into a sin, it is our nature or continuous lifestyle to confess it as sin, get up and go right back to continually striving to KEEP His commandments.

 

[VCO]

But to be repentant means to be turning away from them. So we cannot just choose to live in sin, and say we are repenent at the same time.

What if one confesses Christ, is baptized into him, etc, yet chooses to live a homosexual lifestyle? This is not repentance, otherwise he would stop this sin.

Therfore, this person is in need of repentance (turning away from this sin) and his/her soul is in danger because of this sin Heb 10:26 ..His sacrifice does not cover "willful sin" which means sin that is not repented of. Present or future.

But the grace of GOd has been given, and allows us to repent, even though we deserve death. IF we choose not to receive this gift, it is our own fault when our sins remain.

Rom 6:
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?<---no that is not what grace is. It is not a ticket for us to sin willfully
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein<---answer: we cant, if we live in sin, then we are not dead to sin, therfore not buried with Christ
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ<----obedience were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life<---repentance

NOW just in case anyone thinks they have already arrived at sinlessness, let me show you just how far you still have to go.

James 2:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

James 4:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

OH, OH there are sins of omission as well as commission. If you are sinless, then you must be the most generous person on the planet.

1 John 3:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

Matthew 25:41-46 (NKJV)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP] for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
[SUP]43 [/SUP] I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
[SUP]44 [/SUP] Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
[SUP]45 [/SUP] Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
[SUP]46 [/SUP] And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Romans 14:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

THAT'S RIGHT, everything in your life that is not from faith is SIN.

Guess what, you are still a sinner TOO, even if you thought you were sinless. AND remember, one sin makes you as guilty and the worst mass murderer on Death Row. Just in case you already forgot it, read James 2:10 AGAIN.

Romans 7:24-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[VCO]

ANYONE besides me, find the placement of these new advertisements, EXTREMELY IRRITATING?

 

[VCO]

So obviously you're not really done speaking with me. Lets start from the top.

You believe one is saved by faith only and no works - I know this.
You believe one is saved will have works that follow - I know this.
You believe one must show a changed life or he was never really saved to begin with - this is where you flip flop
You also believe that salvation has nothing to do with obedience - this contradicts the above statment.

So you say, there is NOTHING we can do in order to be saved and remain saved.
Yet there is something that if we DO NOT DO (change, turn from sin) we were never saved to begin with.----right? or is there something you wanna change now?

Well they both cannot be true at the same time, You have to choose one or the other.

which is it?

If something that we did not do (change our lives) is the cuase of never having been saved, then it effected salvation. It blocked it. Therefore repentance is a must.

You can keep saying that's not what i am saying..yet you are everyone has heard it.
You can keep running around saying it's off topic, yet everyone knows it is right on the topic of salvation and works.
You can pretend it's me that is backed into the corner, yet everyone can see, i have nothign to hide. I answer anything you want.

So if you wanna really stop talking with me please do. If not then continue on, and clear up this flip flopping paradox.

My turn!

You are totally forgetting that the ONLY pure motive that exists, is what makes all good works good. It is not to earn part of Salvation, but rather to LOVE GOD BACK FOR HAVING SAVED US. All other motives are worthless in the sight of GOD.

 

[feedm3]

NOW just in case anyone thinks they have already arrived at sinlessness, let me show you just how far you still have to go.

James 2:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

James 4:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

OH, OH there are sins of omission as well as commission. If you are sinless, then you must be the most generous person on the planet.

1 John 3:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

Matthew 25:41-46 (NKJV)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP] for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
[SUP]43 [/SUP] I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
[SUP]44 [/SUP] Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
[SUP]45 [/SUP] Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
[SUP]46 [/SUP] And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Romans 14:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

THAT'S RIGHT, everything in your life that is not from faith is SIN.

Guess what, you are still a sinner TOO, even if you thought you were sinless. AND remember, one sin makes you as guilty and the worst mass murderer on Death Row. Just in case you already forgot it, read James 2:10 AGAIN.

Romans 7:24-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Why spent all this time building up a straw man so you can tear him down, when no one if saying or implying that repentence means perfection.

Are you implying that the servant is Mat 24 was condemned because he did not become sinless? If not then that are you saying?

That we all have and will sin? Okay. So does that mean we do not need to repent from these sins and turn away from them?

Here:
Repentence:
Biblicial definition and example:
Mat 21:
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
(28 they received a command as we have received commands)

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
(29 said he would not: refused the Lord's will as we all do when were living in sin) 29(but he repented: turned away from not doing the Lord's will and started doing the Lord's will}

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. (He says he will do the Father's will-but really did not. As many do here say they trust in Christ fully, yet really do not by not doing his will not teaching the truth, and teaching agasint this very lesson, that we do not have to obey to be saved)

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you
(THe First because he truly repented. He changed his way and obeyed God. This is who did the will of the Father.)



Notice he told the Jews that harlots and publicans go into the kingdom before them. Why? Because they are willing to change themselves. They are willing to obey, the Pharisees did not see themselves as needing to obey as they thought they were God's chosen people and were secure. Just as many are doing right now here today.

So repentance is not about being sinless as in perfect, but it is about acknowledging when we do sin, leading to Godly sorrow, which leads to repentance, verses willful sin which is somone who does not care and lives a sinful life without repentance.

 

[feedm3]

My turn!

You are totally forgetting that the ONLY pure motive that exists, is what makes all good works good. It is not to earn part of Salvation, but rather to LOVE GOD BACK FOR HAVING SAVED US. All other motives are worthless in the sight of GOD.

I am speaking of obedience, not good deeds. Obedience is our duty - Luke 17:10.

If we do not obey, then we are not saved. Heb 10:25-f. Gal 5:1-f., Mat 24:40-f.

Look up those 3 passages and tell me how any of these could be saved without obedience, solely on faith?

If disobedience can keep us from being saved, then it is essential to salvation.

if you believe that disobedience cannot keep us from being saved, then you are about to have a mountain of passages to deal with. Of course you dont have to, but the honest thing would be to do exactly that - deal with them

 

[feedm3]

AND WHEN WE STUMBLE into a sin, it is our nature or continuous lifestyle to confess it as sin, get up and go right back to continually striving to KEEP His commandments.

I agree with this. As this is basically repentance. If we go right back to striving to keep his commands, then we are giving up that sin we are struggling with. This is part of God's grace that we can do so.

 

[VCO]

Why spent all this time building up a straw man so you can tear him down, when no one if saying or implying that repentence means perfection.

Are you implying that the servant is Mat 24 was condemned because he did not become sinless? If not then that are you saying?

That we all have and will sin? Okay. So does that mean we do not need to repent from these sins and turn away from them?

Here:
Repentence:
Biblicial definition and example:
Mat 21:
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
(28 they received a command as we have received commands)

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
(29 said he would not: refused the Lord's will as we all do when were living in sin) 29(but he repented: turned away from not doing the Lord's will and started doing the Lord's will}

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. (He says he will do the Father's will-but really did not. As many do here say they trust in Christ fully, yet really do not by not doing his will not teaching the truth, and teaching agasint this very lesson, that we do not have to obey to be saved)

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you
(THe First because he truly repented. He changed his way and obeyed God. This is who did the will of the Father.)



Notice he told the Jews that harlots and publicans go into the kingdom before them. Why? Because they are willing to change themselves. They are willing to obey, the Pharisees did not see themselves as needing to obey as they thought they were God's chosen people and were secure. Just as many are doing right now here today.

So repentance is not about being sinless as in perfect, but it is about acknowledging when we do sin, leading to Godly sorrow, which leads to repentance, verses willful sin which is somone who does not care and lives a sinful life without repentance.

If you notice I addressed my post to ANYONE, who thinks they are sinless; and believe me, there are a few posting on these Chrisitan sites that do. Like I said, a genuine Christian has a willingness to repent and confess sin, whenever he or she finds it in their lives. It is part of the new nature in us when the Holy Spirit brings our human spirit to Eternal Life.

 

[feedm3]

If you notice I addressed my post to ANYONE, who thinks they are sinless; and believe me, there are a few posting on these Chrisitan sites that do. Like I said, a genuine Christian has a willingness to repent and confess sin, whenever he or she finds it in their lives. It is part of the new nature in us when the Holy Spirit brings our human spirit to Eternal Life.

Yea I do now notice that. Sorry if i jumped the gun. Your posts make sense, I was just reading it again as you posted this (and enjoying what you have to say!). i'll slow down a bit. Lol been an interesting day on this site. Im calling it a night.

Have a good one and God bless