Real question.
Do you not believe Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10; 1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2?
There goes your cover again. . .
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Do you not believe Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10; 1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2?
There goes your cover again. . .
Acts 7 is the end of the longest time prophecy in the bible the 2300 days Dan 8:13,14
When the vision Daniel received in chapter 8 was finished, God sent a heavenly angel named Gabriel to explain it to Daniel. But Partway through this explanation. Daniel fell ill (Daniel 8:27) But in the next chapter, after Daniel recovered, Gabriel returned to finish explaining the vision "Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly reached me about the time of the evening offering and he infromed me and talked with me and said O Daniel I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter and understand the vision. (Daniel 9:22:23) In the next four verses, Gabriel outlined a fascination time prophecy, explaining it as he went along.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
So out of the long 2,300 day prophecy part of Daniel's vision in chapter 8 Gabriel said that 70 weeks are "determined" (a word meaning "cut off") from the longer prophecy, for "your people" (the Jewish nation -people of Israel) During this 70 weeks several things would take place. These six tasks could only be fulfilled in and through the work of Jesus, the Mesiah. Who else, for example, could possibly make reconciliation for iniquity or bring in everlasting righteousness?
The first 69 weeks of this 70 weeks prophecy begin with "the command to restore and build Jerusalem." So if we can learn when this command was we will have starting Date for both the 70 weeks and the longer 2,300 days.
History tells us exactly when this command was decreed. This decree described in Ezra 7:13-26 was sent out by the Persian king Artaxeres in the year 457b.c
The Sabbath was part of the law given to Moses at Sinai (Ex 19:20--31:18) and in the tabernacle,
all known as the Mosaic law.
Nehemiah 9:13-14 reports that the Sabbath was part of the covenant obligation established at Sinai,
as well as in the tabernacle.
The revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers states that
1) the Mosaic law (with its curse--Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10) has been set aside because it was weak and useless to make righteous (Heb 7:18-19);
2) the priesthood has been changed from the order of Aaron to the order of Melchizedek (Heb 7:11-12), with Jesus of Nazareth as its new eternal High Priest (Heb 7:17, 21);
3) there has been a change of the law (Heb 7:12);
4) the old (Mosaic) covenant has been made obsolete (Heb 8:13);
5) the new covenant promised in Jer 31:31-34 was inaugurated (Heb 8:7-12) at the death of Christ (Lk 22:20;
2Co 3:6; Heb 8:6, 9:15;
6) the law of God is now the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2; Mt 22:37-39), which has no curse and which fulfills the Mosaic law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10).
So the question is: do you believe
Heb 7:18-19, 8:7-13,
Lk 22:20; Heb 8:6, 9:15; 2Co 3:6;
1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2;
Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10?
The truth is in the word of God in the list of Scriptures given above.
Do you believe them?
Are you gaming me?
This does not answer my question.
What part of my question above regarding the meaning of "covenant lawsuit" do you not understand?
M
MidniteWelder
Guest
alright let us reason together then in Christ,
what is your definition of "keeping the sabbath"
and by comparison...
What does the Old Testament say on how to keep the Sabbath?
Does it say Under the "4th Commandment" that going to church is the method one uses to keep the Sabbath?
Is it going to church that makes one a Christian and a believer and follower of Christ?
Because since there is some confusion among us we should come to an agreement on what this means under a New covenant and Under our New High Priest.
Looking forward to your response.
Last edited:
Well I don't know any other way to tell you. Anyways the subject at is the "Sabbath". You can make a new tread if you like about covenant lawsuits if you want.
The most direct reply to this OP's supposition is simple. If people who believe Yahweh, God, are doing their best to obey Him, the only worship here is worshipping Yahweh, God.
Anyone desiring to rid this age of the Sabbath of the Lord is free to do so for himself, but do not disparage the obediece of others, for disobedience is akin to witchcraft according to our Heavenly Father.
Repeating many others, there is no command in the Word to dissolve the Sabbath of the Lord, nor to change the day of it.
Anyone desiring to rid this age of the Sabbath of the Lord is free to do so for himself, but do not disparage the obediece of others, for disobedience is akin to witchcraft according to our Heavenly Father.
Repeating many others, there is no command in the Word to dissolve the Sabbath of the Lord, nor to change the day of it.
Yes, actually it does...
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Now what is a convocation?
H4744
מקרא
miqrâ'
mik-raw'
From H7121; something called out, that is, a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the palce); also a rehearsal: - assembly, calling, convocation, reading.
Yep, a public meeting. We call 'em church services today.
the word Christian...
G5546
Χριστιανός
Christianos
khris-tee-an-os'
From G5547; a Christian, that is, follower of Christ: - Christian.
Peter helps us out here...
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Christ was a Sabbath keeper. The Apostle Paul was a Sabbath keeper. To follow in their footsteps, I keep the Sabbath.
Keeping the Sabbath is to...
1) Rest
2) Don't work at one's occupation
3) Attend church services
4) It is a Feast day so we have a special family meal
5) The Sabbath is a very good time to visit the sick and the elderly. (Lawful to do good on the Sabbath)
I'm sorry, but where in any of those verses does Paul instruct believers to NOT follow the Law?
Is there a command to do away with the sacrifices, or the purification laws?
So if a denomination built an altar and offered animal sacrifice,
or followed the purification regulations regarding touching dead bodies, etc.,
it would be wrong to speak against it in the name of the gospel?
The "command" is the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers in
Heb 7:18-19; Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10, etc., etc., etc.
Last edited:
Refresh my memory. . .where does the NT command believers not to abuse their parents or not to lie, etc.?
Or are they the necessary consequences of what the NT does command?
And so with observance of OT laws in light of the commands and revelations of Mt 22:37-39; Heb 7:18-19; Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10.
The issue is your assertion that they are still commanded by God, and have not been set aside (Heb 7:18-19) as the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers states, the issue is not that you choose to observe them.
When it becomes obvious a person is deliberately misunderstanding what has been posted, that person is a liar. Many people or trolls come around doing just this in order to further their own agenda. It is a shame, and no one is able to stop them, so I advise all to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Like a tree, you will know them by their fruit.
Again, I'll take Jesus' very clear words to follow the law, which coincides perfectly with God telling His people to celebrate it forever. If you choose to disregard or put little weight on that, instead looking at Paul, I will respectfully bow out of the conversation. There isn't a whole lot more conversation we can have.
Peace and Blessings,
Matt
OK...
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
What does it mean to hang a picture on the wall? Does that do away with the picture? The Law and the Prophets are humg on the Two Great Commands. That do away with them does it?
Albert Barnes...
On these two commandments hang ... - That is, these comprehend the substance of what Moses in the law and what the prophets have spoken.
What they have said has been to endeavor to win people to love God and to love each other. Love to God and man comprehends the whole of religion, and to produce this has been the design of Moses, the prophets, the Saviour, and the apostles.
Adam Clarke...
On these two - hang all the law and the prophets - They are like the first and last links of a chain, all the intermediate ones depend on them. True religion begins and ends in love to God and man. These are the two grand links that unite God to man, man to his fellows, and men again to God.
Love is the fulfilling of the law, says St. Paul, Rom_13:10; for he who has the love of God in him delights to obey the Divine precepts, and to do all manner of kindness to men for God’s sake.
John Gill...
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Not that all that is contained in the five books of Moses, and in the books of the prophets, and other writings of the Old Testament, is comprehended in, and is reducible to these two precepts; for there are many things delivered by way of promise, written by way of history, &c. which cannot, by any means, be brought into these two general heads: but that everything respecting duty that is suggested in the law, or is more largely explained and pressed in any of the writings of the prophets, is summarily comprehended in these two sayings: hence love is the fulfilling of the law; see Rom_13:8. The substance of the law is love; and the writings of the prophets, as to the preceptive part of them, are an explanation of the law, and an enlargement upon it: hence the Jews have a saying (c), that "all the prophets stood on Mount Sinai", and received their prophecies there, because the sum of them, as to the duty part, was then delivered. Beza thinks, that here is an allusion to the "phylacteries", or frontlets, which hung upon their foreheads and hands, as a memorial of the law. And certain it is, that the first of these commands, and which is said to be the greatest, was written in these phylacteries. Some take the phrase, "on these hang all the law and the prophets", to be a mere Latinism, but it is really an Hebraism, and often to be met with in the Jewish writings: so Maimonides says (d),
Matthew Henry...
2. Observe what the weight and greatness of these commandments is (Mat_22:40); On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets; that is, This is the sum and substance of all those precepts relating to practical religion which were written in men's hearts by nature, revived by Moses, and backed and enforced by the preaching and writing of the prophets. All hang upon the law of love; take away this, and all falls to the ground, and comes to nothing. Rituals and ceremonials must give way to these, as must all spiritual gifts, for love is the more excellent way. This is the spirit of the law, which animates it, the cement of the law, which joins it; it is the root and spring of all other duties, the compendium of the whole Bible, not only of the law and the prophets, but of the gospel too, only supposing this love to be the fruit of faith, and that we love God in Christ, and our neighbour for his sake. All hangs on these two commandments, as the effect doth both on its efficient and on its final cause; for the fulfilling of the law is love (Rom_13:10) and the end of the law is love, 1Ti_1:5. The law of love is the nail, is the nail in the sure place, fastened by the masters of assemblies (Ecc_12:11), on which is hung all the glory of the law and the prophets (Isa_22:24), a nail that shall never be drawn; for on this nail all the glory of the new Jerusalem shall eternally hang. Love never faileth. Into these two great commandments therefore let our hearts be delivered as into a mould; in the defence and evidence of these let us spend our zeal, and not in notions, names, and strifes of words, as if those were the mighty things on which the law and the prophets hung, and to them the love of God and our neighbour must be sacrificed; but to the commanding power of these let every thing else be made to bow.
Seems these all understood that the Law and the Prophets were summed up by and encompassed by the Two Great Commands, yet you state that all the Law and the Prophets were done away by the Two Great Commands.
It is a tough choice, but I gotta go with Barnes, Clarke, Gill and Henry.
M
MidniteWelder
Guest
That's good John although I noticed you referenced Levitical law, we can address that later if you like but for now...
Since we're looking backward, why under the earthly tabernacle was not just any priest but only the High Priest allowed to enter the Holy of Holy's, the Most High Place
And why only once a year on the day of atonement
And why must he had do so bringing a sacrifice of blood atonement.
Hebrews 8
5They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”
First after you have discovered the answer to these things then seek to discover
when Christ died.....why the curtain restricting access to the Holy of Holy's.....was miraculously torn in two?
Hebrews 8
6But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
This will help tie things together.
There was something wrong with the first covenant John, accept it in order to move on.
But I can't provide all the answers for you, you must seek them under Gods direction.
Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
“I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.
The shadows leading to the reality, are much like a spoken parable but the reality lives it out to reveal what the shadow led up to..
[SUP]Mark 4 [/SUP]
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Why would Jesus do that? Speak in parables as if making it more difficult for a human mind to understand God.
Because God wants us to hear his voice and have the mind of God to understand him.
Which takes a renewing of the mind, a reteaching of what you may have been taught before.
This is what the Israelites didn't have.
You're not done learning yet
And as shocking as it may be that a 42 year old may be able teach a 64 year old something.
Keep in mind it has nothing to do with age, so that's Something else you may want to consider while your progression furthers in the kingdom.
I'm not special, but there some things you're not seeing, and I'm trying to help you see them.
If you have the attitude to refuse and seek nothing further than what you already know
then I'm done of talkin' if ya aint listenin' and we may both be one our way with mutual respect as brothers in the Lord.
Last edited:
There was something wrong with the first Covenant...
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
what was it?
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
I will listen to a fourteen year old, but when it comes to compromising with God's Law, I am as adamant as flint. So if you think that I will ever disagree with Christ...
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
You are asking more than I will do. That does not mean we cannot have good conversations, but as far as the Ten Commandments go, including the fourth one, I will not compromise.
I do not see my 1) here--a command NOT to abuse their parents.
I see only my 2) here--necessary consequences of what IS commanded.
So you have derived your proscription NOT to abuse one's parents from
the command TO CARE for them, as its necessary consequence.
Likewise, the proscription regarding the Mosaic law is not from a command NOT to obey it, but is
from the NT revelation that the Mosaic law was "set aside because it was weak and useless to make righteous" (Heb 7:18-19),
from the NT revelation of Christ's law for the NT (Mt 22:37-39) which two principles encompass the Mosaic law (Mt 22:40),
and from the NT revelation that love fulfills (accomplishes) the Mosaic law (Ro 13:8, 9, 19),
as a necessary consequence of these revelations spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.
I believe Heb 7:18-19, 11-12, 8:13, Ro 13:8, 9, 10;
as well as Lk 22:20; 2Co 3:6; Heb 8:6, 9:15.
Do you believe all of them?
Still waiting for your answer on this.
Last edited:
Galatians is as close as you will find to instructions on why Christians are not to go back to working at the law.
But, the not working at the law doesn't mean the Law is not followed. Quite the contrary. THE only way (for us) to follow the law is to quit working at it and rest in the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is why most of us who wish to share this gospel keep coming back to this.
The only way to follow the law is by the Holy Spirit. The only way we are perfected is by the Spirit.
Romans 3:21-22,31
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
We attempt to add our work and our obedience and our understanding to what God has established. But that's not the way of the Spirit. That's the way of the flesh.