The sabbath cults - making an idol of the sabbath.

[Grandpa]

Jesus told the New Testament believer to follow the Law.

So who's right in this case?
Jesus or Paul?

They are both right.

The Lord Jesus came because you could not keep the Law perfectly. And Yet perfection is what is required.

Matthew 9:12-13
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

That is all of us. We are all sick and require the Physician. Some know it and some, not so much.

So what is the solution?

Matthew 11:28-29

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

What is the yoke of Christ?

John 15:4-5

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The yoke of Christ is to abide in Him and He will abide in you. He provides rest, and perfection, unto your soul by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what is required for our perfection and entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Our emulation of the Holy Spirit by our will and strength and our work at the law is silliness in comparison to His Work in Us. That's what Paul explains in his epistles. Its not feasts, rituals, or law that will save and perfect us. Only the Work of Christ can do this.

Matthew 14:29-31

[SUP]29 [/SUP]And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me. Except turn my back on Him and attempt to work in my own strength and understanding. That is un-belief and leaning into your own understanding.

Paul and Jesus say the same things, just in different ways.

 

[chubbena]

??????????

all they had was the scripture. see that now?

 

[Elin]

So then you believe that
1) the two principles of Christ's law (Gal 6:2; 1Co 9:21), love of God and love of neighbor, fulfills (encompasses, accomplishes) the Mosaic law (Ro 13:8, 9, 10; Mt 22:40);

You are completely ignoring the fact that the Ten Commandments are Christ's Law...

The Mosaic law is all the law given to Moses by God, which includes the Ten Commandments.
They can be grouped into the moral, ceremonial and civil.

You also seem to not be able to grasp the fact that the Two Great Commandments support or hold up ALL of the Law and the Prophets...

Read it again.

2) the Mosaic law with its curse has been set aside because it was weak and useless to make righteous (Heb 7:18-19),
and the NT people of God are no longer commanded to follow the Mosaic laws with their curse for imperfect obedience (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10), because they are all encompassed in the principles of Christ's law;**

Heb 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
Heb 7:19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Notice it is not plural as in Commandments? What is is referring to? What is the former...

It is "the law" (singular) stated in the next verse; i.e., the entire Mosaic law (singular).
All the commands prescribed for Israel were contained in the Mosaic law.

5) the Mosaic covenant has been made obsolete (Heb 8:13),

Yep, the Covenant is becoming obsolete.

Are you saying the Mosaic (old) covenant has not become obsolete and we are still under the Mosaic (old) covenant?

Are you saying we are under two covenants, the new and the old?

The Law on the other hand is the foundation of the New Covenant...

Do you know that the Mosaic (old) covenant was a bilateral conditional covenant, depending on obedience to the law to stay in force?

Do you know that the new covenant (Heb 7:7-12) inaugurated by the blood of Christ (Lk 22:20; 2Co 2:6; Heb 8:6, 9:15) is a unilateral unconditional covenant, requiring no performance by the people of God to stay in force?

The New Covenant is not based on performance of the Mosaic law.

**If I love God, I will not prefer other "gods," nor will I take his name in vain.
If I love my parents, I will not dishonor or neglect them.
If I love my neighbors, I will not steal from them, nor murder them, nor commit adultery with their spouses, nor lust after their possessions.

Love fulfills, encompasses, accomplishes the law (Ro 13:8, 9, 10).

That sounds real good,

Yes, that is characteristic of the word of God.

problem is that is not how it works...

I'm sorry that you don't believe the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers; viz., that "love fulfills the law" (Ro 13:8, 9, 10).

Yes I believe the revelation of the Son, I believe ALL of it...

In quoting so many of his words, why did you omit the summation of his words in Mt 22:37-40?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Previously addressed.

Now which of the above passages do you discount?

I do not discount Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10.

And I do not discount Heb 7:18-19, 11-12, 8:13, Ro 13:8, 9, 10;
as well as Lk 22:20; 2Co 3:6; Heb 8:6, 9:15.

Do you?

Still waiting on an answer to this.

 

[Elin]

all they had was the scripture. see that now?

Need not apply for what?

 

[Funtastic]

Hebrews 7 shows that the law has been changed. The New Testament believer is not under the law.

Being under the law means we are under the curse of death but not by keeping them through Christ as through Him there is no curse.

That's the true definition of being under the Law.

 

[Funtastic]

The Mosaic law is all the law given to Moses by God, which includes the Ten Commandments.
They can be grouped into the moral, ceremonial and civil.


Read it again.


It is "the law" (singular) stated in the next verse; i.e., the entire Mosaic law (singular).
All the commands prescribed for Israel were contained in the Mosaic law.


Are you saying the Mosaic (old) covenant has not become obsolete and we are still under the Mosaic (old) covenant?

Are you saying we are under two covenants, the new and the old?


Do you know that the Mosaic (old) covenant was a bilateral conditional covenant, depending on obedience to the law to stay in force?

Do you know that the new covenant (Heb 7:7-12) inaugurated by the blood of Christ (Lk 22:20; 2Co 2:6; Heb 8:6, 9:15) is a unilateral unconditional covenant, requiring no performance by the people of God to stay in force?

The New Covenant is not based on performance of the Mosaic law.


Yes, that is characteristic of the word of God.


I'm sorry that you don't believe the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers; viz., that "love fulfills the law" (Ro 13:8, 9, 10).


In quoting so many of his words, why did you omit the summation of his words in Mt 22:37-40?


Previously addressed.


I do not discount Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10.

And I do not discount Heb 7:18-19, 11-12, 8:13, Ro 13:8, 9, 10;
as well as Lk 22:20; 2Co 3:6; Heb 8:6, 9:15.

Do you?

Still waiting on an answer to this.

Elin, if every instruction that was given in the OT is now of no importance than why does God instruct us to keep them in the Millennium???

 

[KohenMatt]

5)That would be the Greek definition.

6) Subject to all its regulations/obligations and penalties.

So do you believe 5) and 6) also?

I am happy to hear these things.

Still not sure what your definition of "obsolete" is.

#6) Yes.

The caveat for all of these, though, is that I still believe a Christian should follow the Law, not for any other reason but responsive obedience to Jesus' sacrifice.

 

[KohenMatt]

Please reconcile your statements in blue.

Paul's revelation is the same as Jesus.

My question was if Farouk thinks Hebrews 7 says the NT believer isn't under the Law and that it isn't applicable,
And Jesus says in Matthew 5 that Christians should do and teach the Law,
Who's right? Jesus or Paul?

Or is it possible they both are, and that there is room in Paul's beliefs for obedience to the Law?
I say both Jesus and Paul are right, and that a Christian can and should follow the Law freely and with no fear.

 

[KohenMatt]

They are both right.

The Lord Jesus came because you could not keep the Law perfectly. And Yet perfection is what is required.

Matthew 9:12-13
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

That is all of us. We are all sick and require the Physician. Some know it and some, not so much.

So what is the solution?

Matthew 11:28-29

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

What is the yoke of Christ?

John 15:4-5

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The yoke of Christ is to abide in Him and He will abide in you. He provides rest, and perfection, unto your soul by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what is required for our perfection and entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Our emulation of the Holy Spirit by our will and strength and our work at the law is silliness in comparison to His Work in Us. That's what Paul explains in his epistles. Its not feasts, rituals, or law that will save and perfect us. Only the Work of Christ can do this.

Matthew 14:29-31

[SUP]29 [/SUP]And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me. Except turn my back on Him and attempt to work in my own strength and understanding. That is un-belief and leaning into your own understanding.

Paul and Jesus say the same things, just in different ways.

I agree with just about everything you said here.
Although I would add that it is by the Holy Spirit's leading, and Jesus' strength that I can anything He wills me to do.

And that includes the Law as well.

 

[Funtastic]

Malachi 4:4 “Remember the Law of My servant Moses. Remember all the Laws I gave him in Horeb for all Israel."

We were grafted into Israel so we are included.

The Great Day of the Lord

Malachi 4:4-6 “See, the day is coming. It is burning like a hot fire. And all those who are proud and those who do wrong will be like dry grass. The day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord of All. “Not a root or branch will be left to them. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But for you who fear My name, the sun of what is right and good will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and dance like calves from the cattle-house. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You will crush the sinful under foot. They will be ashes under your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the Lord of All.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Remember the Law of My servant Moses. Remember all the Laws I gave him in Horeb for all Israel. [SUP]5 [/SUP]See, I will send you Elijah the man of God before the day of the Lord comes, that great day that will be full of much trouble. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. Or else I will come and destroy the land with a curse.”


Verse 2 is talking about when Jesus went around healing the sick and then verse 4 -6 is speaking of the end days and the day of judgement on the earth.

What on earth is this verse doing in the bible if it's no longer for today?

 

[Timeline]

Calling Good Evil and Evil Good

BIBLE MEDITATION:
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” Isaiah 5:20

DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
People can become so warped in their thinking that they don’t know the difference between right and wrong.

I was listening to the radio one morning, and they were talking about what scientists want to do with the tissue of aborted babies. They said that some women are thinking about having babies, aborting them, then selling the tissue for research. The scientific community is promoting this propaganda because of the good they say the research will have on the whole of humanity! But what about the whole of humanity that begins in the womb?

People today will play enough tricks on their minds that they will literally approve evil with a good conscience.

Where do you stand on this issue? What is right and what is wrong?

ACTION POINT:
Take some time this morning to read Psalm 139 and ask God to show you His truth.

I think that they should stop genetically altering food.

The abortion issue shouldn't even be up for discussion. It is murder.

Now in cases where a woman has been raped. I do realize that it can seem overwhelming. I do think that abortion should be avoided (as it is still murder). If the woman is able (mentally, physically, emotionally) to raise her child then she should, but if she can't I think it would be good if she carried and gave him/or her to someone where she can see them from time to time. Again, the is a difficult topic and should probably be decided by elders or at least someone that is wiser than I am.

But aborting babies because you wanted to have fun or make money. Totally unacceptable.

 

[john832]

I think that they should stop genetically altering food.

The abortion issue shouldn't even be up for discussion. It is murder.

Now in cases where a woman has been raped. I do realize that it can seem overwhelming. I do think that abortion should be avoided (as it is still murder). If the woman is able (mentally, physically, emotionally) to raise her child then she should, but if she can't I think it would be good if she carried and gave him/or her to someone where she can see them from time to time. Again, the is a difficult topic and should probably be decided by elders or at least someone that is wiser than I am.

But aborting babies because you wanted to have fun or make money. Totally unacceptable.

I have often wondered how those who are proponents of abortion feel about receiving a retroactive abortion.

 

[Grandpa]

I agree with just about everything you said here.
Although I would add that it is by the Holy Spirit's leading, and Jesus' strength that I can anything He wills me to do.

And that includes the Law as well.

You don't see that when you turn to your own work of the law you have turned away from the work that Christ does in you?

Galatians 5:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Romans 7:5-6

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[john832]

You don't see that when you turn to your own work of the law you have turned away from the work that Christ does in you?

Galatians 5:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Romans 7:5-6

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

You keep claiming that obeying the Law is a curse (this is not what he scripture says, but) so show me how being faithful to my wife in every aspect of my life is a curse.

After you have done that, we will extrapolate it to the fourth Commandment.

 

[john832]

Still waiting for your answer on this.

Sure, (actually I answered them in a rather lengthy post but the answer was not what you wanted to hear. We've been down that road before, haven't we?) I do, now answer these for me,

1) Did Christ obey the Law?

2) Do you believe I Pet 2:21?

3) Does Christ tell us to "Do what I say not what I do"?

 

[Grandpa]

Galatians 3:24-26
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Clearly we are no longer under the law after we have come to faith in Christ.

Romans 3:20-22

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

If you are interested in righteousness, as you should be, you shouldn't be pursuing it by attempting to be obedient to the law. That is clearly not the way of righteousness.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Romans 9:30-31

[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

 

[2Thewaters]

Your Galatians verse is is misapplied, he was talking about circumcision, not the Sabbath ggiven at Eden to all mankind. Reead the whole book.

Your Romans verse is misapplied, Paul was talking about circumcision not the law of the ten commandments that Paul says to keep at the end of Romans. Read the whole book.

Your Galations verse is misapplied Paul is talking about the circumcision and sacrificial system written on parchment and kept in the side of the ark not the eternal law of God spokeen on the mountain and written in stone for eternity. Read the whole book.

All you have to do is read those two books front to back and you will see it is NOT alright to kill steal covet lie dishonor parents take Gods name in vain and especially NOT OK to worship idols

so you are confused.
as to which law Paul talked about

Did you not read Galations intro duction?

Gal 3:1 OG5599 foolishG453 Galatians,G1052 whoG5101 hath bewitchedG940 you,G5209 that ye should notG3361 obeyG3982 theG3588 truth

Paul says to OBEY ALL THE TRUTH why would he say that if it was DONE AWAY?

He said NOT to obey circumcision

but obey aLL that the apostles and Jesus taught us.

If you would actually read Galations Romans you would see your error

Tell you what

Why dont you read 1 peter 2 peter 1 thessalonians and 2 thessalonians and James and revelation

That will help you understand where your errors came from.

Revelation says in the end the few very few who will not take the mark of the beast keep the commandments of God
Rev 22:14

will you be one of them?

 

[chubbena]

Need not apply for what?

They didn't have Paul's letters let alone false teachers twisting his words.

 

[chubbena]

Malachi 4:4 “Remember the Law of My servant Moses. Remember all the Laws I gave him in Horeb for all Israel."

We were grafted into Israel so we are included.

The Great Day of the Lord

Malachi 4:4-6 “See, the day is coming. It is burning like a hot fire. And all those who are proud and those who do wrong will be like dry grass. The day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord of All. “Not a root or branch will be left to them. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But for you who fear My name, the sun of what is right and good will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and dance like calves from the cattle-house. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You will crush the sinful under foot. They will be ashes under your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the Lord of All.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Remember the Law of My servant Moses. Remember all the Laws I gave him in Horeb for all Israel. [SUP]5 [/SUP]See, I will send you Elijah the man of God before the day of the Lord comes, that great day that will be full of much trouble. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. Or else I will come and destroy the land with a curse.”


Verse 2 is talking about when Jesus went around healing the sick and then verse 4 -6 is speaking of the end days and the day of judgement on the earth.

What on earth is this verse doing in the bible if it's no longer for today?

you're kidding me right? The most reliable manuscript does not have chapter 4 so most sermons end with and focus on chapter 3 on tithing.

 

[john832]

Malachi 4:4 “Remember the Law of My servant Moses. Remember all the Laws I gave him in Horeb for all Israel."

We were grafted into Israel so we are included.

The Great Day of the Lord

Malachi 4:4-6 “See, the day is coming. It is burning like a hot fire. And all those who are proud and those who do wrong will be like dry grass. The day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord of All. “Not a root or branch will be left to them. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But for you who fear My name, the sun of what is right and good will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and dance like calves from the cattle-house. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You will crush the sinful under foot. They will be ashes under your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the Lord of All.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Remember the Law of My servant Moses. Remember all the Laws I gave him in Horeb for all Israel. [SUP]5 [/SUP]See, I will send you Elijah the man of God before the day of the Lord comes, that great day that will be full of much trouble. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. Or else I will come and destroy the land with a curse.”


Verse 2 is talking about when Jesus went around healing the sick and then verse 4 -6 is speaking of the end days and the day of judgement on the earth.

What on earth is this verse doing in the bible if it's no longer for today?

When reading it, verse 2 is a continuation of verse 1 and shows the dichotomy. The wicked are burned up in the Lake of Fire but the righteous inherit all things and are given the right to the tree of life.

Verse 3 continues showing the righteous and the reward of the wicked (burned to ashes).

Verse 4 is an admonishment that relates to verses 5 and 6 at the end of the age.