It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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homwardbound

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[h=3]Ephesians 3:16-18[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; [SUP]17 [/SUP]that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, [SUP]18 [/SUP]may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

Canm't really love can we unless we see God's love first can anyone love any deeper than God?
And will anyone love any deeper that what they seem they are loved?
 
A

Alligator

Guest
Yes and never said you do not believe and am not fighting you, just sharing with you the difference in stress and rest
Are you familiar with before the cross and after the cross. What is the transition in this before and after
Is before under Law and Christ fulfilling it why?
And in before under Law are we condemned to death, not being able to be perfect to go to heaven?
Read why the disciples asked Christ after they watched that rich man walk away sad who obeyed the law from birth on, who could not give up his worldly possession to be perfect and go there?
The Disciples finally got and were annihilated and ask How then can anyone go to Heaven then read it in Matt 19
Also remember this they had also heard if your hand sins, cut it off, better for part of you to go to heaven than all of you go to hell. This was said about Adultery, just look at another and thus think it, you have sinned, gouge out that eye(s), oh and while you are at it if under the Law cut out thy tongues as well
So now maybe you might see what Christ came to do, fulfill all the Law and Prophets concerning him, to die for you and thus give you new life when you finally move past the death, and agree with and in thankfulness thank God and ask for the new life in Spirit and truth, given at the resurrected Christ
I think by what you just stated here you have and got it just not yet seeing fully
Philippians 3:10-11

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
quite frankly, I don't see what all that has to do with the subject at hand.
 
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Man will do just about anything to not die and yet die in his sins that he does not believe Christ to have taken away, so he can move on into the new life in Chirst in Spirit and truth. At the resurrected Christ, is what you and others might be missing not seeing the whole cross, only seeing the death, a half sham Gospel, where there is no life only death. And one goes out to be all they can be, hoping for Mercy and never receiving it. Being caught up in trying to be perfect in their own flesh, when no flesh willo please God but Christ's and that is done over and out. Then came the resurrected Christ in Spirit and truth to give us that new life in Spirit and truth by his resurrection, for our new life more abundantly as he said he came to do in John 10:10
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
OK so I am missing resurrected Christ, seeing only a piece of the cross ,seeing death,with a half sham Gospel with only death no life, hoping for but never receiving mercy,trying to be perfect in the flesh. You know all this about me that is great. You have learned a lot I am happy for you. I am not moved by your opinion your words of death cannot touch me.You cannot steal my joy.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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To be honest you can find Scriptures to support either view what comes do to even though slip up from time time we are all called to renewed day by day into his image and press toward the high calling that Christ set before the us. Personally from my study I come on the side not of once saved always saved, but in the end God is the judge to those justified in Christ. Keep pressing on toward the high calling.
Mystic, greetings. I don't recall posting or disgusting anything w/ you before.

The issue is that of trusting the Lord Jesus as only & sufficient Savior or not. He who denies eternal security shows that He does not trust the Lord Jesus to get him to Heaven, but thinks that at best, Jesus gives him a shot at it. That is not trusting a Savior.

We don't just slip up from time to time, but in many things we all stumble, as James says.

There is no scripture that defines eternal life as something you can lose once the Lord Jesus gives you that gift. The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The evidence is sufficient for certainty, and enough to define one as failing to believe God's word after one considers that evidence.

You refer to God being the judge. Part of the confusion on this subject seems to be that people confuse judgment with salvation: Judgment is always by works, but salvation is every by grace through faith.

Other confusion seems to be based on persons not admitting how utterly depraved they really are, so depraved that the idea adding human works to salvation acquisition is impossible.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

I invite you today to trust the Lord Jesus as your only and sufficient Savior and to depend on His substitutionary atonement on the cross as full payment for all your sins.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Ephesians 3:16-18

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; [SUP]17 [/SUP]that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, [SUP]18 [/SUP]may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

Canm't really love can we unless we see God's love first can anyone love any deeper than God?
And will anyone love any deeper that what they seem they are loved?
Homeward Bound:

IMHO, that intercessory prayer of Paul for the Ephesians is the most important prayer in the Bible for the Christian life.
Note the sequence:
1) Intercession by a 3rd party (Paul).
2) God grants. (1st party)
3) The Spirit strengthens the (weak) inner man (on its unaided weakness compare Romans 7)
4) Faith by the Christian (2nd party) -- the only action by the 2nd party in the passage.
5) Christ dwells in the heart (not at the periphery of the life).
6) The 2nd party is rooted and grounded in the Love of the Lord Jesus (cf. the song, "Oh the Deep, deep, love of Jesus."
7) filled to all the fullness of God.

This is the only passage I know of that indicated how the Christian is filled. I don't say you can't pray this for yourself, only that in context Paul is praying for other Christians far away from him who probably have no idea Paul is praying for them.

I expect that this prayer was effective, though about a generation later the Ephesians had left their first love, illustrating that victory in the Christian life is ever temporary -- no guarantee that 5 minutes from now we won't stumble. It is like Peter walking on the water.

I prayed this prayer for you. And I ask you to pray it for me.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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all I ever hear from you people is trust in God, trust in God, trust in God, AS IF I DON'T? That's not even the issue. I do for my salvation whatever God asks me to do. You can call it what you want. I know you are familiar with the parable of the talents. This parable shows the danger of doing nothing.
Greetings Alligator.
I don't recall conversing with you before.
At least I hope you aren't a crocodile.

Don't you agree that doctrine is not compounded from parables, but from propositional teaching? After the doctrine is established, then one understands the parables in that light and uses the parables to illustrate that doctrine.

The parable of the talents is not about obtaining salvation. You say, that you do for your salvation whatever God asks you to do.

I note you didn't say "I do whatever God asks," since the demand is to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect -- an impossible standard.

But if you do what the Lord requires for salvation there is but one action by man required: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. Believe/trust/faith is repeated over and over again without qualification.

There is lots more "doing" for salvation, but those doings are the Lord's doings. Salvation is a free gift of grace for us, but it cost the Lord an incredibly high price on the cross.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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If one does not start in repentance,
Repentance comes in 2 flavors in the NT. The usual word and that associated with salvation (the few times when it may used instead of "believe") is metanoia, an afterthought, a change of mind. As salvation is offered so many times just for believe/trust/faith in Christ, it is concluded that the only repentance which saves is a change of mind from not trusting Christ to trusting Christ.

The other word group, metamelomai, connotes sorrow for sin; but this does not save. Judas had this one; then went out and hanged himself.
 

Atwood

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May 1, 2014
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Atwood, please look closely at John 10:27-29. Christ says my sheep hear my voice and FOLLOW ME. So who are those who He will never cast out? Those that FOLLOW HIM. IT IS CONDITIONAL. Also, it says no one will be able to snatch them out of my Father's hand, but it doesn't say we can't withdraw ourselves and stop following Christ on our own choosing.
Greetings Alligator.
It certainly is well to look closely at scripture.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.


"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

This statement addresses persons who are already born again saved persons. They don't get saved by following Christ. But the fact is stated that believers follow Christ. There is nothing about how to become a sheep here.

"and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. "

Then the statement is made that Christ is giving (present tense) the believers eternal life. He has ordained that the sheep shall never perish! The sheep are safe in the omnipotent had of the Lord (figure of speech).

There are no conditions given here whatsoever for becoming a sheep, neither is that topic addressed here. It should be noted that "sheep" is a general term for Christians, not some special segment of them.

The text says that NO ONE shall snatch them out; No one includes the sheep themselves. Moreover, without regard to some "snatch theory," the text says
"they shall never perish." And that means they cannot make themselves perish.

Best wishes.
May you find rest in the Crucified-Risen omnipotent Savior.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Jude 1:1 is one verse "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Preservation is IN JESUS CHRIST and no individual is unconditionally preserved outside of Christ before the world began by a random choice of God.
SeaBass,
the passage clearly addresses persons sanctified, preserved, and called.

You say, "no individual is unconditionally preserved outside of Christ before the world began by a random choice of God."

As you must know (?), election and predestination are Bible facts (as for example Ephesians 1 and Romans 9). Now even born-again Christians don't agree on how to interpret election; neither do we have to understand that and agree with each other on it to be saved.

I don't recall anyone claiming that God's choice was random. Scripture indicates, elect according to foreknowledge. And Christians don't agree on what that means either.

Nonetheless, the doctrine of election brings humility to the believer. We believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and we receive salvation. It may be later that we learn we were elect. I don't know scripture that really tells us why one is elect and not another. I do know that the gospel is to whosoever will -- and that one can find out for sure one is elect by trusting Christ as Savior.

End of Rom 8:

And we know that to them who love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God who justifies;
who is he who condemns?
It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For your sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

Atwood

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May 1, 2014
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Truth is presented in parables. And there is no truth to the fact one can live in sin/spend money on harlots and maintain his salvation.
All of God's Word is truth. But figurative stories require propositional teaching to guide the interpretation. I don't recall in the Prodigal Son Parable any mention of salvation, trusting Christ as Savior, getting eternal life; going to the Lake of Fire or avoiding it.

I do see it as illustrating that God is very forgiving. The Prodigal didn't have to do any works to be accepted by the Father there. The Prodigal had no self-righteousness to plead to get into the Father's House. And despite wasting his money on riotous living (I think it was his brother that accused of harlots -- maybe judging?), he was immediately accepted when the Prodigal presented himself as a sinner. He faced the judgment of the Father with no meritorious works, yet was accepted into the House.

You need a verse somewhere that speaks about a man maintaining his salvation. I don't recall that ever being said. Let us refrain from making up things.

There is indication that certain gross-sin behavior patterns (like fornication and lying) indicates a man was never saved and is heading for the Lake of Fire. But as a matter of fact, in many things we all stumble, and even Christians need to be confessing sin.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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IF IF IF one is in this preserved group Christian/Saint they will be preserved. But one can fall away from this preserved group and be come "unpreserved"/lost.
Kindly refrain from making up stuff. The text doesn't say that, and if they could not be called preserved if they were not preserved.

Lk 22 why make supplication that his "faith fail not"? Failing faith is IMPOSSIBLE if ES were true.
If the Lord Jesus does not save us, we won't be saved. He ever lives to make intercession for the believer. Luke 22 certainly doesn't indicate that a believer loses faith. Instead we see an example of why a believer did not lose faith -- the intercessory work of the Savior. Once saved, one enters the MUCH MORE care of the Savior.

Rom 5

But God commends his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life;
 

Atwood

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May 1, 2014
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That was about Atwood's assumptions on things he has no knowlege of. And you're right, he should make no such assumptions. But since you brought it up, let me go on to say that when people interlace their scriptures with unprovoked personal attacks, that tells me they are speaking from the flesh and not the Spirit. And since the Spirit and the flesh are at odds with each other, that makes them and their testimony highly suspect.
Ricky, are you making an unprovoked personal attack on myself?

I post scripture. The Bible is clear that believers have eternal life and are eternally secure in it, for Christ is a Savior who brings salvation, not just a giver of a chance for salvation.

Read the scripture, and make up your own mind. I don't ask anyone to believe such truth just because I say it.

I know whom I have believed,
and am persuaded that He is able
to keep that which he has committed to me against that day.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Acts 16:30ff

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washedtheir stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God.


I reiterate the point that nowhere ever was the jailer commanded to "believe only"
To the contrary, when prophet Paul answered the question , What must I do to be saved, the answer had only "believe" in it, nothing else.

Yes, prophet Paul went on to give the jailer more teaching, none of which is recorded. Note that the jailer rejoiced greatly having believed in God.

When the jailer was commanded to believe in verse 31, it was not until verse 32 the jailer was told what [sic] to believe > the word of the Lord.
The answer to the question about what he should do to be saved was not to believe things. It was to believe in a person -- the SAvior, the Lord Jesus. And only one action by a man was called for in the answer: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. And there was no indicated wait in the text for the answer, but an immediate answer is written:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."

It was after he was told what to believe (word of the Lord) that he was baptized. So the jailer in verse 32 was told "the word of the Lord" and the word of the Lord includes baptism, Mk 16:16.
Logical fallacy. That the jailer was given more "word of the Lord" from prophet Paul, is no indication that Paul taught him that anything besides belief saves. Because Mark wrote a gospel and that gospel speaks about baptism, does not prove that Paul quoted Mark or said Mark 16:16. The word of the Lord includes the healing of the lepers. The fact that Paul gave out the word of the Lord hardly implies that Paul told the jailer that leper story.

Who is arguing Christ does not save? Christ does save but saves those that obey Him, Heb 5:9.
The only obedience which saves is the command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. If you postulate that your good works done in obedience to the Lord, save, then you are denying that Christ is your only and sufficient Savior and making yourself a Savior. But you, a sinner, cannot save yourself. "There is none that does good, no not one." "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

Drop any religious pride. He came not to call the righteous, but sinners to a change of mind.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.
 

Atwood

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May 1, 2014
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Calvinistic election and predestination is NOT taught in the bible.
Well Seabass,
do you think we can really settle Calvin's hash on this forum and come up with the absolute and definitive proof of the implications of election and predestination here? Your bold letters prove nothing.

But we can read about election and stand in awe of the Lord.
 

Atwood

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May 1, 2014
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which is why he can use it because the doctrine has long been established elsewhere in scripture and these parables, just as Jesus stated are all as the Kingdom. He starts most of them as "The Kingdom is like...... The Kingdom is the Body of Christ.
What is your proof that the Lord Jesus meant by "kingdom" the Body of Christ? The Body of Christ did not exist during the Lord Jesus earthly ministry: "On this rock I WILL build my Church." The precedent for the Kingdom teaching in Jesus' ministry, is in the OT, where it never refers to the Body of Christ.

Your saying something was long established proves nothing. Your theories are not common ground here. If you want to prove something about salvation, you need to prove it from propositional teaching, not arbitrary interpretation of figurative language parables.


It is a gift in which we are required to participate in, it is an obligation, a requirement, a duty, a necessity. It is why man was created, to participate with God in this created order.
What is amazing is how persons just pontificate here without proving things from the Word of God. A gift is hardly a duty. You can accept or reject a gift; you don't earn God's gifts. You prove nothing about why man was created. Doesn't Ephesians 1 indicate that a big purpose in creating man was that the Lord could manifest his attribute of grace. God became a man (not an angel); God died on the cross to pay for our sins -- but in contast, he gives no help to angels this way.

By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast. Why frustrate the grace of God in your case, reject Salvation, insist on trying to save yourself, and end up in the Lake?

You say things about God and man's will. But no scriptural proof, just your speculation. After Adam sinned, the Lord sought Adam and evidently killed animals to cover them, instead of their fig leaves. This illustrates man trying to cover his sins with the fig leaves of self-righteousness, instead of with the blood of the Lord Jesus.

[/QUOTE]


John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
 

prove-all

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May 16, 2014
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Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
 

Cassian

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Oct 12, 2013
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Atwood,
What is your proof that the Lord Jesus meant by "kingdom" the Body of Christ? The Body of Christ did not exist during the Lord Jesus earthly ministry: "On this rock I WILL build my Church." The precedent for the Kingdom teaching in Jesus' ministry, is in the OT, where it never refers to the Body of Christ.
That is what scripture calls it. Read scripture you tell me and apparantely you do not read scripture.
The very first words of Jesus's ministery were, Repent, for the Kindom of God is at hand. That is in your Bible, correct?
Your saying something was long established proves nothing. Your theories are not common ground here. If you want to prove something about salvation, you need to prove it from propositional teaching, not arbitrary interpretation of figurative language parables.
like you do.

What is amazing is how persons just pontificate here without proving things from the Word of God. A gift is hardly a duty. You can accept or reject a gift; you don't earn God's gifts. You prove nothing about why man was created. Doesn't Ephesians 1 indicate that a big purpose in creating man was that the Lord could manifest his attribute of grace. God became a man (not an angel); God died on the cross to pay for our sins -- but in contast, he gives no help to angels this way.
I still forget that sola scripturist really do not understand scripture. they just know their particular proof texts and if one ventures off from those texts they are lost.

What I have stated has been the historical meaning of scripture and all Christians have always understood it as I am stating it. They would not have had any difficulty in understanding what I am saying. But, as you remind me, that is not possible for a sola scripturist.

By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast. Why frustrate the grace of God in your case, reject Salvation, insist on trying to save yourself, and end up in the Lake?
If one actually understood what Salvation actually was in contrast to eternal life, you could at least stay on topic. We are not even speaking about the Gift of salvation that Christ gave to the world. We are speaking about the purpose of that gift. That gift of eternal life was THROUGH FAITH. so quite, obviously this begs the question dealing with OSAS, because the believer can lose faith. A believer can become unfaithful, thus is no longer a believer, thus does not qualify under all those texts you keep posting that does not speak about a believer that has fallen. In other words, he is no longer believing. that present tense, active, continuous verb that you seem not to understand.

As far as I know, no opponent of OSAs has ever stated that one is saved by works. That has been, will always be the strawman of the OSAS theory because supposedly it gives credence to the theory.

You say things about God and man's will. But no scriptural proof, just your speculation. After Adam sinned, the Lord sought Adam and evidently killed animals to cover them, instead of their fig leaves. This illustrates man trying to cover his sins with the fig leaves of self-righteousness, instead of with the blood of the Lord Jesus.
Why would one expect you to understand the story of Adam and man's creation when you don't understand the reason Christ saved the world, so that man could again be reunited with Him.

then you quote 4 texts that do not even address OSAS. They are all God's promises to man in a covenant relationship, but you have yet to produce the same kind of guarantee for man's faith.

Asking for evidence is rhetorical because I know none exists. There is NO text, context of scripture that supports OSAS. You and other proponents have done an amazing job of redefining salvation, redefining faith, redefining what is actually a believer. Taking God's promises and ascribing them as man's promises. Since even they don't help your cause, then strawmen hopefully might do the trick.
Read your scripture, but read it without your OSAS blinders on.
 

Atwood

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May 1, 2014
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SALVATION IS BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH PLUS NOTHING
(on man's part).

This truth highly overlaps with the doctrine of eternal security and with some denial of the truth of justification by faith, seems to be at the heart of rejecting eternal security. But the evidence for faith, as the only successful condition for salvation, is overwhelming.

ROMANS SAYS SALVATION IS BY FAITH PLUS NOTHING:


Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

This righteousness is a gift from God by virtue of a new birth and incorporation into the Lord Jesus (end of Rom 5).

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all them who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus. Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what says the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him who does not work not, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned to them; and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision.
For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression.

For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calls the things that are not, as though they were. Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. Wherefore also it was reckoned to him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law to righteousness to everyone who believes.
For Moses writes that the man that does the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in your heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down:) or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what does it say? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

Legal righteousness by Law is only hypothetical, because no one ever fulfilled or fulfills the Law, except the Lord Jesus. The rest of us must be saved by faith alone.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Atwood
What is your proof that the Lord Jesus meant by "kingdom" the Body of Christ? The Body of Christ did not exist during the Lord Jesus earthly ministry: "On this rock I WILL build my Church." The precedent for the Kingdom teaching in Jesus' ministry, is in the OT, where it never refers to the Body of Christ.
Atwood,

The very first words of Jesus's ministery were, Repent, for the Kindom of God is at hand. That is in your Bible, correct?
like you do.
Cassian, you didn't give any proof, you just said it. Of course the special message of the Lord Jesus to Israel, begun by John the Baptist, and repeated by the 12 in Mat 10 was "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand." But that doesn't prove what it means. I am convinced that this was an offer of the Davidic Kingdom to Israel, having done a lot of research on it. There was not Church in existence and there is no OT precedence for making the KOG the Church in the ministry of the Lord Jesus, which focused on Israel, not the gentiles. You haven't proven your case. I gave a couple of objections.

I still forget that sola scripturist really do not understand scripture. they just know their particular proof texts and if one ventures off from those texts they are lost.
Alice in Wonderland, Cassian. I have read the Bible through times beyond counting since I was a teenager. Have you read it even once? I studied the terms for kingdom (Malkuth, etc.) in Hebrew and in the gospels in my research. Acts 1 indicates the apostles understood the Kingdom to be Israel's kingdom, not the Church, and that after 40 days post resurrection teaching.

Your sneering at Sola Scriptura proves nothing.

I don't claim the term "soia scriptura." My POV is that the only Word of God commonly and readily available to men in general (on earth) is the Bible. If you have something else, give convincing evidence that it is God's word; otherwise you are limited to the Bible.

What I have stated has been the historical meaning of scripture and all Christians have always understood it as I am stating it.
Either prove that or retract. BTW, I don't regard you as a Christian because evidently you do not trust the Lord Jesus as your only and sufficient Savior.

If one actually understood what Salvation actually was
You don't seem to understand what it is. Now I have read the whole Bible through and marked all the passages. Have you? Salvation is first a new birth, a transformation in which a sinner is begotten by the Lord and made a child of God. Then it includes eternal life, as John 3:16 so clearly states.

I am going to save time now and ignore all the rest of the pontifications you posted, since you give no proof. You just go on and one saying things. Prove what you say or retract.

I have quoted much scripture which clearly teaches that the believer in Christ has eternal life and is eternally secure. And I am now adding the scripture which teaches that man's only responsibility in salvation is to trust the Lord Jesus as Savior, faith, justification by faith.

For the benefit of the audience:

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.

John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
 
A

Alligator

Guest
Greetings Alligator.
It certainly is well to look closely at scripture.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.


"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

This statement addresses persons who are already born again saved persons. They don't get saved by following Christ. But the fact is stated that believers follow Christ. There is nothing about how to become a sheep here.
"and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. "

Then the statement is made that Christ is giving (present tense) the believers eternal life. He has ordained that the sheep shall never perish! The sheep are safe in the omnipotent had of the Lord (figure of speech).

There are no conditions given here whatsoever for becoming a sheep, neither is that topic addressed here. It should be noted that "sheep" is a general term for Christians, not some special segment of them.

The text says that NO ONE shall snatch them out; No one includes the sheep themselves. Moreover, without regard to some "snatch theory," the text says
"they shall never perish." And that means they cannot make themselves perish.

Best wishes.
May you find rest in the Crucified-Risen omnipotent Savior.
The purpose of my bringing this scripture up had nothing to do with how to become a sheep. It was to show the fallacy of eternal security. I disagree that this passage covers those who choose themselves to stop following Christ.
Gal.5:4;II Tim.4:1; Heb. 10:26-27; Heb. 6:4-6; II Pet.2:20-21; Heb. 3:12-14; Jas. 5 19-20; Col. 1:22-23; among others shows that a Christian can so conduct himself as to finally be lost if he does not repent. In first John I:7-9, we are told that Jesus blood Cleanses us from all sin as long as we walk in the light. That is conditional.