Christianity in Europe vs the States

[Callmebadger]

by this i invite you, Callmebadger, to come over and help me.
but at the other side, why would i try to change the way those people think about life?
i would also not like it if they would try it with me.

Uh? Because if you don't, they'll burn in a lake of eternal damnation? How much do you have to hate someone to deny them the opportunity of salvation. Comfortability with stagnation is the worst plague that could possibly befall a Christian. But I accept your invitation with open arms; I've always wanted to see where my mother's side of the family comes from! haha

 

[shrimp]

i live in belgium, so in the hearth of europe. i witness that, in my school, 0 on 1000 students in high school are religious. christianity is seriously dying here. if i have to go to church with my parents, i can only see old people in a almost empty church. the ones who still believe a bit, don't go to church at all, don't read the bible and mostly don't even pray. their believing is just: 'god is there, but i don't really care, he doesn't desides my life'.

I see the same thing here in the USA! Everywhere! Thankfully in my small town(s) there are still young people who do go to church.

 

[jos]

well i expect you here any moment
but here is the real problem:
christians want to save the others from hell
atheists want to save the others from 'stupidness', as they call it
maybe the answer to the problem is not to annoy the other ones with each others toughts of what is right.
how would you like it if a atheist tries to explain you that god doesn't exist or that you chose the wrong way?
if you don't like that, don't do it to someone else. i know very good it's seductive to do.

 

[shrimp]

well i expect you here any moment
but here is the real problem:
christians want to save the others from hell
atheists want to save the others from 'stupidness', as they call it
maybe the answer to the problem is not to annoy the other ones with each others toughts of what is right.
how would you like it if a atheist tries to explain you that god doesn't exist or that you chose the wrong way?
if you don't like that, don't do it to someone else. i know very good it's seductive to do.

I don't like it when an atheist tries to explain that God doesn't exist because it's blasphemous.
I can understand your argument. However Jesus commanded us to tell the world about Salvation. If I have failed in this and someone goes to the eternal flames because I did not witness to him/her, then I am held responsible for that soul.

 

[jos]

Then you start from the point that everyone who is not a chrisian goes to hell without doubt.
so a muslim doctor, who has saved hunderds of lives during a war, will go to hell?
he still saved more lives than most of the other people on earth.
it might be an extreme exemple, but i hope you get my point

 

[shrimp]

Yes the doctor would. The Bible is clear about such things. Sorry if you don't like it, sometimes I don't like it. But whether or not we like truth will not change it.
If someone has rejected God's Word, then they are doomed.

 

[jos]

Then we should ask ourselves the question wich is already milleniums old: what is the truth?
Does an universal truth even exist? Or is truth dependent? You cannot just dictate your truth to other people because it is 'the real one' according to you. Would all the truth be in a simple book? Or would it be more complicated? Because if you think all the truth is in the Bible, you still believe it is. it's no fact because of that.
Philosophating can be hard, not?

 

[skipp]

well i expect you here any moment
but here is the real problem:
christians want to save the others from hell
atheists want to save the others from 'stupidness', as they call it
maybe the answer to the problem is not to annoy the other ones with each others toughts of what is right.
how would you like it if a atheist tries to explain you that god doesn't exist or that you chose the wrong way?
if you don't like that, don't do it to someone else. i know very good it's seductive to do.

If you have that attitude then the church in your country will continue to die.

 

[shrimp]

Then we should ask ourselves the question wich is already milleniums old: what is the truth?
Does an universal truth even exist? Or is truth dependent? You cannot just dictate your truth to other people because it is 'the real one' according to you. Would all the truth be in a simple book? Or would it be more complicated? Because if you think all the truth is in the Bible, you still believe it is. it's no fact because of that.
Philosophating can be hard, not?

[h=3]John 14:6[/h]King James Version (KJV)

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


He didn't say "a way, a truth, and a life"

 

[jos]

skipp: the church here will die with or without me. no doubt. and i'm not going on a crusade to convince people.
shrimp: why would i take what he might have said as truth? it's not even sure if he even really said that, or if it is something someone added afterwards. notice that that John was written about 70 years after jesus's death. the original language was greek, not hebrew or something else. and nowone of the folowers of jesus spoke greek. so the authenticity is questionable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John#Date
go to 2.6date.

 

[shrimp]

skipp: the church here will die with or without me. no doubt. and i'm not going on a crusade to convince people.
shrimp: why would i take what he might have said as truth? it's not even sure if he even really said that, or if it is something someone added afterwards. notice that that John was written about 70 years after jesus's death. the original language was greek, not hebrew or something else. and nowone of the folowers of jesus spoke greek. so the authenticity is questionable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John#Date
go to 2.6date.

John was in Ephesus for a part of his life and was banished to the island of Patmos. He most certainly knew Greek and was the last one to die in 100 AD

 

[kayem77]

I live in California, which is a very liberal state, but there are a lot of churches here...even if they are not exactly doctrinally sound churches. I live in a city that's predominantly conservative, but there is still a lot of work to do. Just because people are culturally Christian it doesn't mean they are saved. There is a danger of being too comfortable in your tradition that you don't even realize you're slowly but steadily walking towards Hell. A lot of people claim to be Christians that are not.

I haven't visited many other states here in the US, but at least compared to other countries, the US is not doing that bad. That there is a decline I do not doubt, but to countries like Mexico and probably all of Europe, the US looks like a Christian paradise, because the decline of genuine Christianity is very subtle.

 

[Callmebadger]

Let's not gang up on Jos, here. His pattern of logic is typical of one who has grown up in a forsaken country. Going strictly off of his cynicalism, I would venture to say that his beliefs are a mix between Christianity and the "show me the proof" thought process of most agnostics; which isn't hard to see how or why he stumbled upon it.

Jos, at the end of the day, it all comes down to, as you say, faith. To us, the Bible is the word of God. Regardless of who wrote what, the authors of this collection of works were influenced by God, letting him speak through them for us to see. The word of God is law, and his laws are truth; therefore, the Bible is the proof to those who have faith, and to those who understand the meaning, it is unquestionable.

The common argument for your contemporaries is to undermine our solid foundation which is the Bible, for without that, any and all of our statements are false; similar to pulling out the bottom block of a tower. Through the millennia, I am yet to see any "philosopher", as you would have it, succeed in disproving Yahweh's word as truth. For John to have written his work towards the end of his life, 70 years after the death of Christ, is completely possible even if he were the same age as Jesus. People living until 100 years old is well documented throughout history, and going by scripture, 900 years old wouldn't be completely dumbfounding.

As I said, comfortability is the worst tragedy that could possibly befall a Christian. Some would label me a fanatic, but I would rather be spit upon and persecuted by the foolish for the rest of my life than face the wrath of a God who would hold me accountable.

 

[doseofreality]

Uh? Because if you don't, they'll burn in a lake of eternal damnation? How much do you have to hate someone to deny them the opportunity of salvation. Comfortability with stagnation is the worst plague that could possibly befall a Christian. But I accept your invitation with open arms; I've always wanted to see where my mother's side of the family comes from! haha

Interesting, so the reason people go to hell is because other christians were not evangelizing and spreading the word enough?
I though it had to do with our sin nature and our natural rebellion against God.

Also, how many people in Europe haven't already heard the Christian message?
The better question to ask is "Why are less and less Europeans not believing the Christian message"?

 

[Callmebadger]

Don't put words in my mouth. I see nothing in there that says that's strictly the reason people go to Hell. But if you see someone that doesn't know about Jesus Christ and you sit by and don't even try and show them the truth, you will give account for it before God. It also has nothing to do with our nature of sin, nor our rebelling against God. That all changed when Jesus died on the cross, like I'm sure you've heard a million times before; I guess it just didn't sink in. Therefore, the reason people go to hell is denial of his son, Jesus Christ. All other sins are forgivable in the eyes of God, if I'm not mistaken.

The question you ask is a trivial one without an answer that could possibly be known to us. Every person in every country is different, so to diagnose a whole continent would be near impossible. You're right though, most people in Europe have heard the message of Christ, but beyond that I don't think much is known. If you don't know the glory of God and all that he's done for us, then how could you ever believe in him?

 

[doseofreality]

Don't put words in my mouth. I see nothing in there that says that's strictly the reason people go to Hell. But if you see someone that doesn't know about Jesus Christ and you sit by and don't even try and show them the truth, you will give account for it before God. It also has nothing to do with our nature of sin, nor our rebelling against God. That all changed when Jesus died on the cross, like I'm sure you've heard a million times before; I guess it just didn't sink in. Therefore, the reason people go to hell is denial of his son, Jesus Christ. All other sins are forgivable in the eyes of God, if I'm not mistaken.

The question you ask is a trivial one without an answer that could possibly be known to us. Every person in every country is different, so to diagnose a whole continent would be near impossible. You're right though, most people in Europe have heard the message of Christ, but beyond that I don't think much is known. If you don't know the glory of God and all that he's done for us, then how could you ever believe in him?

Ahh which leads to the paradoxical question... Is it not better then to never hear the gospel? From an eternal perspective, in this way you do not have the opportunity to deny or reject Jesus and are guiltless of that one unforgivable sin.

The bible is silent concerning the millions upon millions that never heard of Jesus, those who were born with a sin nature and guilty before God. If Jesus came to save those who couldn't save themselves, then all should be forgiven regardless of their belief or knowledge of Jesus and the gospel. Why put stipulations on a supposed unconditional act of love and sacrifice?

More so, being a christian entails much more than just not denying Jesus as Son of God .... you also must confess your sin, repent, worship Him, believe in the Trinity, strive to obey the commands in the bible, be baptized, take communion, and walk with the Lord daily.

Belief only gets you to the starting line, that is why there is a big difference between rebelling against or rejecting Jesus and non-belief in Jesus.

Which ties back into the main point that European countries who are becoming more secular or non-religious represent people who have a non-belief in Jesus as a God. So evangelizing in the traditional way is a moot point, like trying to convince an adult that Santa Claus really lives in North Pole with all his elves. Unless you provide evidence that substantiate the claims and that it is more likely than other explanations.

 

[jos]

At first, thank you Callmebadger to explain my thinking a little.

I totally understand your point that everything about being christian begins with the Bible. And believing in it makes it truth, wich is very irritating for the non-believers for who it is not truth, if someone quotes some bibleverse again.
And here i can use the idea from doseofreality for the people here: keep in mind that believing in christ here is the same difficult as believing in Santa Claus; he might be somewhere, but we cant say for sure, so we don't believe in him. Jesus has become some kind of fairytale here, so that makes it difficult to believe. because of that, the bible has totally no power here. if someone quotes a bibleverse in a discussing, he is declared mad. and if someone starts chanting bibleverses on the street out loud, he will be arrested for soundpollution and get a high bill to pay.

i can agree with this at some point, because if the bible is the law, there are some very very strange laws sometimes:
Deut. 23:1
No man whose testicles have been crushed or whose organ has been cut off may become a member of the Assembly of God.

or this, related to homosexuality: An Open Letter to Dr. Laura Schlesinger | naked capitalism

 

[Simona25]

thank you theotokos. i am protestant with a strong element of anabaptist theology in my personal theological mix and that has been my "emotional" position for many years. you have helped me to put that emotion into words.the god of lukes gospel is certainly more merciful than we are. part of this developed over the past ten years while working on a manuscript on the cross. i have a few chapters on The Cross, in History, Heraldry, and Legend - The Cross in History, Heraldry, and Legend and would love to hear what you think of them.

Well, the three chapters that I read are very interesting. I sent you an e-mail.