It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[SeaBass]

Where in the word, after the death of Christ does it say to ask for ongoing forgiveness between God and you,

Just a verse I have posted umpteen times:

1 Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

A continued walking in the light by the Christian is required to have a continued cleansing away of all sins by the blood of Christ.

So the Christians' salvation (having all sins washed away) is CONDITIONAL (see the word 'if") the Christian continues (present tense) walking in the light.

Also 1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

See the CONDITIONAL word "IF" again?

 

[Atwood]

Atwood posted:

All of God's Word is truth. But figurative stories require propositional teaching to guide the interpretation. I don't recall in the Prodigal Son Parable any mention of salvation, trusting Christ as Savior, getting eternal life; going to the Lake of Fire or avoiding it.

I do see it as illustrating that God is very forgiving. The Prodigal didn't have to do any works to be accepted by the Father there. The Prodigal had no self-righteousness to plead to get into the Father's House. And despite wasting his money on riotous living (I think it was his brother that accused of harlots -- maybe judging?), he was immediately accepted when the Prodigal presented himself as a sinner. He faced the judgment of the Father with no meritorious works, yet was accepted into the House.

You need a verse somewhere that speaks about a man maintaining his salvation. I don't recall that ever being said. Let us refrain from making up things.

There is indication that certain gross-sin behavior patterns (like fornication and lying) indicates a man was never saved and is heading for the Lake of Fire. But as a matter of fact, in many things we all stumble, and even Christians need to be confessing sin.

Some simply want the parable to teach

Parables are figurative illustrations wherein one may not allegorize all the details. You just can't prove doctrine from parables. Establish it first on what proposional teaching says. The parable never says God, savior,saved, salvation, eternal life, believe, lose salvation -- none of that . Go to verses that speak of those things. Once you establish the doctrines, use the parables as illustrations.

then they have a man living in fornication yet still maintaining his salvation.

How do you know that the obviously sinful brother was telling the truth? Did he follow his brother around? Wasn't he sinfully judging?

This illustrates the folly of using parables

[/quote]Yet the parable refutes ES for the father says "for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.[/quote]

The brother was dead to the his father, not really dead. And the word again, which you emphasize is not in the oldest manuscripts. "Again" is not in the oldest texts like papyrus p75 or Vaticanus or Sinaiticus or others. The UBS Greek text doesn't even bother to have a footnote this variant reading.

Instead of going on about parables that never mention God, savior,saved, salvation, eternal life, believe, lose salvation, focus on the plain propositional teaching of the Word of God.

According to ES, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the sheep, coin or son to become "lost"...but they did.

The whole race of Adam was lost. Israel was generally lost. "But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." This does not imply that individuals who once were saved were later lost. Your unnecessary applications of details in parables proves no doctrine. A story about a lost sheep, coin, or son cannot be used to prove that saved persons aren't saved. In all 3 cases, if you wanted to press the analogies, they all ended up saved due to the action of the Savior, even if they temporarily got out of fellowship. Neither the sheep, nor the coin, nor the Son did anything to save Himself -- no good works. All the saving was done by a Savior.

But turn your eyes on the plain statements of God's word. Set aside pride in self-righteousness.

There are many verses that says the Christian must keep/maintain good works, Christ's works, faith etc to remained in a saved position. Rev 2:26; 1 Jn 2:5; 3:24; Jn 8:51; James 1:27 etc, etc

None of those verses teach what you claim. And being saved is not a state of having a chance to be saved, it is being saved.

Rom 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

FAITH PLUS NOTHING IS ALL REQUIRED OF MAN

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[SeaBass]

When a Christian stops asking for more, that is when they have received "it is finished"
John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, Itisfinished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

And they begin the new life in Spirit and truth with Father, thanks to Son. If one is not past beinjg forgiven by God through Son as it is done, and does not finalize this, that one is still swimming in the cess pool of life here on earth, trying to attain perfection that no person other than Christ can or did
Sorry you do not see this freedom out of stress as of yet, maybe you will, only god knows and I pray so, God shows you

If the Christian does not ask for forgiveness, he will not get it. Again see 1 Jn 1:7,9.

 

[SeaBass]

No it does not prove that, He speaks of Christians when he writes of Heb 6:9

9 But, beloved[a Believer], we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So he knows the saved cannot fall away because they are saved with Salvation of God !

Heb 6;4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Obviously those that have been enlightened (come out of darkness), tasted the heavenly gift, made partakers of the Holy Ghost and tastes the word of God and powers to come are Christians. And the "they" in verse 6 refers to these Christians.

Heb 10:9 is showing the confidence of the Hebrew writer that those Christian Jews would not end up as those in verse 6.

 

[SeaBass]

If Christ died for them they will ! Christ saves them from their sins ! His Death for them, no matter what they have done, makes them Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I see no exceptions in 1 COR 6:9,10.

 

[SeaBass]

seabass



No problem, since what God desires He does it Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Now if all whom He desires to be saved does not be saved as He desires, you are calling Job 23:13 a lie !

THere is a difference between God's decretive will, permissive will and prescriptive will.

What God decrees He gets, but God does not always Get what from man what His prescriptive will desires of man, Mt 23:37

 

[Atwood]

Just a verse I have posted umpteen times:

1 Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

A continued walking in the light by the Christian is required to have a continued cleansing away of all sins by the blood of Christ.

So the Christians' salvation (having all sins washed away) is CONDITIONAL (see the word 'if") the Christian continues (present tense) walking in the light.

Also 1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

See the CONDITIONAL word "IF" again?

It is a logical fallacy of denying the antecedent to make your claim on 1 John 1:7.
1 John 1:7 says nothing about what happens if one doesn't walk in the light.
The verse also never says "salvation" or "eternal life."

You also cannot prove that "And the blood . . ." depends on the if. You may start a new sentence with "And the blood."

Also you cannot prove that this is anything other than cleansing the conscience from dead works, or that it is the foot washing a disciple needs whose totality has been cleansed.

"For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling them that have been defiled, sanctify unto the cleanness of the flesh: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
You may have scruples that need cleansing.

Of course Christians generally have daily need to confess sins and be cleansed (foot-washing). But the Christian does not daily lose his salvation.

Those verses do not say "salvation," lose salvation, nor eternal life.

You make unnecessary interpretations of verses which don't use that language, and ignore the plain teaching of the Word.

"never perish."

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

OVER AND OVER AGAIN, SIMPLE FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS BRINGS SALVATION (not a shot at salvation)

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Jude 1:1 is not made up stuff, some just reject it is seems.

The Lord saves but the issue is who and why does He save. Heb 5:9 those that obey (present tense) Christ are the ones He saves. If one quits obeying Christ which is disobedience/sin will not be saved. God has vengeance upon those that "obey not" the gospel of Christ, 2 Thess 1:8.

This is the how and why a person is saved:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth ocnfession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9,10

After that a person is sealed with holy Spirit until the day of redemption . . . . then the works they did whether good or bad will be judged by fire - what is burnt will result in loss of rewards - what is left will result in rewards - and the person himself will be saved.

 

[Atwood]

I see no exceptions in 1 COR 6:9,10.

Nothing in 1 Cor 6 says anyone loses salvation (to use an oxymoron).

they shall never perish!

 

[SeaBass]

You said this in post 687:



I asked you to show the scripture that states that ? Jude 1:1 does not say that at all !

Jude 1:1 is talking about the group Christians and calls them preserved in Christ. What cannot be shown is where an individual is UNCONDITIONALLY preserved OUTSIDE of Christ.

 

[Atwood]

Seabass,

Heb 9:6 interprets the preceding:

9 But, beloved[a Believer], we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Those in the preceding context lacked the things that accompany salvation; they are professors, so enlightened that they cannot be brought to a change of mind to trust Christ as Savior.

 

[SeaBass]

No they are kept by the power of God through Faith ! It does not read they are kept by Faith through the power of God ! You twist scripture. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

It does not say they are kept by God.

It does not say they are kept by God without faith.



Faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom 10:17 not something God randomly gives to some and randomly withholds from others thereby putting fault and blame upon God for those that are faithless.

 

[SeaBass]

I have heard similar statements which make the assumption that Christ unilaterally forgave sins on the Cross. If that were actually true, then all the sins of the world were forgiven, since He propitiated the sin of the world.

Evidently they must think sins are automatically, unconditionally forgiven while they sit and do nothing.

 

[Atwood]

If the Christian does not ask for forgiveness, he will not get it. Again see 1 Jn 1:7,9.

Again you commit the formal fallacy of negating an antecedent.
You cannot prove what you say, and 1 John doesn't say it either.

Do you suppose that when the Lord Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do," they had asked for forgiveness?

 

[SeaBass]

Seabass, Jude says no such thing. Now there you go again, just up and saying things. Everyone who is foreknown is foreordained, everyone who is foreordained is justified; everyone who is justified is glorified!

Prove your canards or retract. And also prove that individuals are never said to be elect. While you say the above (with no scripture basis), the Word of God says:

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are
called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God who justifies;
who is he who condemns?
It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jude 1;1 "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:"


The pronoun "them" refers to the group Christian for NO INDIVIDUAL is sanctified or preserved OUTSIDE of Christ unconditionally.

 

[Atwood]

Jude 1:1 is talking about the group Christians and calls them preserved in Christ. What cannot be shown is where an individual is UNCONDITIONALLY preserved OUTSIDE of Christ.

Seabass, individuals outside Christ were never saved and are not preserved. But Christians are preserved. The condition is that of having an omnipotent loving Savior who has been trusted as Savior.

Now when will you do that? The only escape from our rottenness is the preservation of the Lord.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]If a Christian sins, does his sinning prove he was never saved to begin with?[/FONT]

 

[Atwood]

Evidently they must think sins are automatically, unconditionally forgiven while they sit and do nothing.

Salvation is free for trusting Christ. He does the saving, we do the trusting. We offer not up our filthy rag works. It cost the Lord a lot of work. You must rest in the Lord to be saved.

Come unto Me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give y you rest.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

 

[SeaBass]

Seabass, individuals outside Christ were never saved and are not preserved. But Christians are preserved. The condition is that of having an omnipotent loving Savior who has been trusted as Savior.

Now when will you do that? The only escape from our rottenness is the preservation of the Lord.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

You say "individuals outside Christ were never saved and are not preserved" and that is because God NEVER unconditionally foreknew/predestined INDIVIDUALS as Calvinism says but God foreknew/predestined a GROUP and only those that are CONDITIONALLY in this GROUP are part of the elect/foreknown/predestined/preserved.

God foreknew/predestined the GROUP but God NEVER decided which iperson would or would not be in that group, that is a choice each man must make.

 

[SeaBass]

Again you commit the formal fallacy of negating an antecedent.
You cannot prove what you say, and 1 John doesn't say it either.

Do you suppose that when the Lord Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do," they had asked for forgiveness?

You are implying the Christian can QUIT walking in the light yet Christ's blood will wash away all his sins anyway, but the language does not allow for your misinterpretation.


Did God forgive those that crucified Christ even if they did not obey the gospel of Christ?