It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Atwood]

You are correct there are no texts that deny eternal security for the man who trusts Christ as Savior.

Glad to read that Cassian.

The problem with your view is that many who trusted Christ for many years, suddenly fall away which is clearlly explained in scripture with actual examples, exhortations to remain faithful.

Now what is your proof of that one?
Heb 9:6 contradicts that idea.

Then you ask a question again, which was answered for you in the post to which your are responding. So much for your reading ability.

The problem with your statements, Cassian, is that is just you saying it. Like the above; no scripture proof whatsoever. You saying something is no answer. Now should you come clean and just confess that you don't care what the Bible says, and that it is what your superior organization says by which you go. So, no matter what argument is presented here, if your organization says something different, you will go with your organization. Am I correct in this guess?

John 5:24 does not support eternal security/OSAS in the least. It is again in the present tense, continuous action. It says nothing about having it absolutely guaranteed to the end, but ONLY in the present tense.

"Verily, verily, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes him that sent me, has eternal life, and comes not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life."

"Verily, verily, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes [present tense] him that sent me, has eternal life, and comes not [futuristic] into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

"comes not into judgment" refers to the future.

I have already posted many texts that clearly shows man must work with God to attain eternal life. If we do not follow Him, we are no longer IN Him.

You have not quoted a single verse that says that, for there are not such verses.

so where is your proof?

It is abundantly posted; also above and below.

End of Rom 8:
"Who shall [ future tense] separate us from the love of Christ?
shall [ future tense] tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able [ future tense] to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [[ future time]"


2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved [past tense]us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal [past tense],

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will [future tense]never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes [present tense]to me I will [ future tense] never cast out.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee [guarantees pertain to the future]

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable [ irrevocable refers to the future]

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life [ eternal includes the future]

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will [ future tense] bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved [past tense]through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will [future tense] transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will [ future tense] raise him up at the last day.

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time [ all time includes future tense]those who are being sanctified.

Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will [ future tense] be condemned.

Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present [ reference to future]you blameless before the presence of his glory [ presence of His glory refers to future]with great joy,


Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will [ future tense] he not also with him graciously give us all things?


Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be [ future tense] clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

 

[Atwood]

You are correct there are no texts that deny eternal security for the man who trusts Christ as Savior.

Now what kind of security is it if you lose your Heavenly Entrance ticket and get a Go-To-Hell card every time you sin? Why you would be on the list for the Lake of Fire every day. Thus it is absurd to call that security. That is not security at all, let alone eternal security. That is fearful insecurity. If a man presently trusting Christ as Savior doesn't know but what he would be sentenced to the Lake of fire one second later, a day later, or any time in the future that is insecurity.

But the word says, "they shall never perish."

 

[Atwood]

Once Upon a Time in the Country of Lower Slobbovia,

a used car salesman told a buyer,
"If you buy this car, you will have an eternal guarantee on this car."

So the buyer bought.
On the way home, the car broke. So the buyer had the car towed back to the used car lot, demanding satisfaction.

The salesman said, "I said if you buy this car," which used the present tense of "buy." Now it is the future, so your guarantee is no good."

The disgruntled buyer contacted the District Attorney, who charged the salesman with fraud.

At the end of the trial, the judge sentenced the salesman to 20 years of hard labor, but added, if you pay your fine of $1000, you will be secure in a release from prison. The salesman had no money to pay, so he went to prison. However, the next day his wife paid his fine for him.

The salesman petitioned the court for a release from prison. But the judge denied it saying, "I told you that if you pay your fine, you will be secure in a release from prison. But I used the present tense when I said, 'If you pay,' and you paid your fine in the future, so you must stay in prison."

Word of all those happenings reached the dictator of the country, who had both the salesman and judge fed to a wood-chipping machine for pettifogging and abusing language.

 

[homwardbound]

I do believe that future sins are forgiven if we confess them.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Don't you?

I see simply and plainly by Christ's death we are forgiven, and that it is done for us to gain new life in Spirit and truth from Father via the resurrected Christ in Spirit and truth

There is no forgiveness executed from God ever without the death and shedding of blood, and this is done for us back at the cross.
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

 

[homwardbound]

atw



I have no problem h that passage, but the truth still remains:

Those Christ died for never had sin charged to them 2 Cor 5:19 !

Maybe better put those that Father sees that will choose Father, Father does not force anyone to drink does Father?

 

[homwardbound]

It always helps to use a strawman. You will NOT find a passage that says one lost salvation, because no one has salvation until the end when eternal life is granted. It is being held as an inheritance.
However, our attaining eternal life is all based on one's faith. If we lose faith then we also shall not inherit eternal life.

After all these posts you still have not found a text that makes man "saved" regarding eternal life upon one's initial faith.
Your citations (3) don't address OSAS. The first addresses the promise that is awaiting for you, IF you are faithful.
The other two have the condition of continuous action, present tense in order to attain eternal life.

But this one does:
[h=3]Romans 8:16[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

End of story, and if this is not yet confirmed in anyone else, then time to beg for the mercy, and maybe recieve and be confirmed
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[homwardbound]

Good morning to you - Atwood. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean. When I was born again I did not confess any sin - I repented of the life I was living, confessed Jesus as my Lord and believed God raised him from the dead and I was saved and my sins 'previously' committed were forgiven and I was granted eternal life. Now, what do I do with the sins I commit after being born again? 1 John 1:9 makes provision for that or else why would it even be written? And yes, it does restore my fellowship with the Father and the Son.

From you, you view, not God's when:
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You are not shedding any blood are you?

[h=3]Hebrews 6[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

praying
God reveals this mature truth to you.

 

[homwardbound]

But if ES were true, then why does a Christian need an advocate for?

To teach them truth over the error(s) in and of this world. All one has to do is have sinned just once, and they are not fit ever for the kingdom of Heaven. No matter what one does afterwards outside of believing and trusting God through Son's perfect work for them, where one is made perfect by Son's sacrifice for them.
leaving this:
Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

i am elated for you that you want and desire to serve the living God and know since you want this God will do this:
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand

and this is why i make no judgment of you, I know God will do as God says, seen it tooooooooooooo many timjes not to know

 

[homwardbound]

So if a Christian sins, he was never really saved to begin with?

Rather id one believes, and sins God the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit of truth, teaches us the stupidity of any and all sins, where we walk away from those prior in God's timing not ours. The sooner we give up on ourselves and put no confidence in flesh nature to do as God wants, we might discover this:
[h=3]Philippians 3:1-11[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: [SUP]5 [/SUP]circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; [SUP]6 [/SUP]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.



So if one decides to be dead to self via the death of Christ at the cross, then might if god willing see the new life in Spirit and truth by the resurrected Christ?

 

[homwardbound]

Christ went to the cross for everyone's sins, all sin......so does that mean will every one be unconditionally saved?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! death is not life is it? Life is in the resurrected Christ not the dead Christ where:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Done at the cross and brought this for us to come to the end of our own works in trying to be pewrfect for Chirst's death did this for you.

Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

It is done, the death of Christ is the death for you to present you clean before Father

To then ask Father for the new life in Spirit and truth

Saved b y the life not the death.
SDo eiother one believes or they do not and god knows who does and who does not, So we that are telling you truth can still stay at rest, knowing God has got it all together in the palm of his hand

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[RickyZ]

My nephew, who in his teens and 20's was a huge Jesus freak, now in his 30's says there is no God and that salvation in Jesus is a flat out lie.

So, because he accepted it in his early years, he does not suffer the same fate as all blasphemers for outright rejecting Him now?

Still haven't heard any OSAS proponent address this. It's not a set up. This is a true situation. I'd just like to hear how someone who with his own lips denies the Christ is going to get in.

Perhaps you all avoid it because you can't justify it.

It takes a conscious decision to accept Christ. Only a conscious decision to reject Him can rescind that. Sin can't do it, God won't do it, but a person's free will decision to deny can. And will.

 

[Timeline]

Still haven't heard any OSAS proponent address this. It's not a set up. This is a true situation. I'd just like to hear how someone who with his own lips denies the Christ is going to get in.

Perhaps you all avoid it because you can't justify it.

It takes a conscious decision to accept Christ. Only a conscious decision to reject Him can rescind that. Sin can't do it, God won't do it, but a person's free will decision to deny can. And will.

I believe it the opinion of some OSAS that he was never saved, because God knew that he would later deny Jesus. But from the human perspective (point of view) we see a man that accepted Jesus and later denied him. So whether God never extended grace/salvation or if he fell away, the result is the same.

Of course, all decisions are God's. But I think we agree, that it is doubtful that he maintains/has salvation as long as he keeps his current stance.

I do not believe in OSAS, but this is what I have gathered from talking/posting with them.

 

[RickyZ]

Yes, I believe that would probably be the answer they would give. I just find it curious that none of them would step up and address it. Shows a lack of faith in their belief, imho.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

The problem with your statements, Cassian, is that is just you saying it. Like the above; no scripture proof whatsoever. You saying something is no answer. Now should you come clean and just confess that you don't care what the Bible says, and that it is what your superior organization says by which you go. So, no matter what argument is presented here, if your organization says something different, you will go with your organization. Am I correct in this guess?

Yes, that is correct. The Church Christ founded is the Church to which I submitt. Christ is the Head of that Church, and enlivened by the Holy Spirit. What He stated, and has preserved within His Body is what I believe.
I do not hold to the many man made theories/interpretations which you hold.
What I have stated are scriptural facts any Christian would have understood very easily, from the 1st century to the 5th, 10th, 15th and 21st. Those that have adoped man made theories will not understand scripture as it was given in the beginning.
At this point you have not produced any text that supports your interpretation. Historically it is very easy to ascribe it to Calvin and his umbrella doctrine of predestination. If you go further back, it lies with Augustine who took the pagan view and counched it is biblical meaning by finding proof texts.

You have not quoted a single verse that says that, for there are not such verses.

Of course not. If you acknowledge such your whole theory crumbles. Which is why you need to ignore most of the NT, while changing the meaning of the texts you do us such as John 5:24.
then you quote scriptures again that do NOT support OSAS. NOt a single one.

End of Rom 8:
"Who shall [ future tense] separate us from the love of Christ?
shall [ future tense] tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able [ future tense] to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The ONLY creature left out is YOU.
Besides that God loves the unbeliever just as well.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [[ future time]"

waiting for you IF you abide. You are living in HOPE of that end and dependent on His mercy to inherit the promise IF you were faithful to the end.

2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved [past tense]us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal [past tense],

God saved every human being from death and sin. He did this so He could call all men to repentance. NOt because of what we did, but by his own purpose and grace. This was promised to be given to those who are IN Christ. not those that depart.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will [future tense]never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

again, present tense, continuous action, hear and follow and if we actually do continue then we shall never perish. We will inherit the promise of eternal life at the end.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes [present tense]to me I will [ future tense] never cast out.

Why would Christ cast out anyone. He desires that all come to know Him. But this does not address man's side of the relationship. He is free to leave at any time. again scripture gives many examples of beleivers leaving the fold while exhorting the beleiver to remain faithful.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee [guarantees pertain to the future]

yes, future, not in the present. One needs to abide, hear, follow, believe, obey continually to the end otherwise there is no eternal life.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable [ irrevocable refers to the future]

Yes, they are awaiting any and all who are faithfull. God will not jerk the promises He has made right out from under us. God is not our problem. Man is the weak link in this covenant.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life [ eternal includes the future]

but only for those WHO BELIEVE. If one no longer believes obviously this statement is not applicable.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will [ future tense] bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Again we don't need to doubt Christ and His promise. But man cannot make such a promise. He still can sin and can fall back into his old ways and depart and thus remove himself from the fold.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved [past tense]through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

all men were saved, but believers were part of that larger group called mankind and were saved also, but also through faith. That through faith is attaining eternal life. It is a gift but the part that man must participate in with Christ. It is the reason why we were created. God does not bypass His purpose of creating man, then redeeming Him so He and man could be reunited.

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will [future tense] transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

He has already accomplished this by His resurrection but the consummation occurs at the eschotan, I Cor 15:53. All the dead will be raised immortal and incorruptible.

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will [ future tense] raise him up at the last day.

there's that present tense, active, continuous verb, believe again. Man can stop believing at any time.

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time [ all time includes future tense]those who are being sanctified.

One sacrifice was for all sin. All men have access to this by believing. But forgiveness of sin is not available for those who to not continue to believe. Falling back into sin is how one can become unfaithful, not longer following God's will but doing our own will.-

Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will [ future tense] be condemned.

one needs to take refute, but if one does it must be continuous. We cannot take refuge only for a time and expect that we will not be condemned.

Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present [ reference to future]you blameless before the presence of his glory [ presence of His glory refers to future]with great joy,

He is able to do a lot of things. But one thing He is NOT able to do is grant one eternal life if that person no longer abides in Him. It must be continuous, not stopped.

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will [ future tense] he not also with him graciously give us all things?

Christ promised to give us a lot of gifts to assist us to work with Him to attain eternal life. But man does not need to accept these gifts, and can surely turn away from them at any time. They are for those that believe, not those that turn away.

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be [ future tense] clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

ONe needs to overcome. That is the condition. Falls right back on the word, believes. present tense, active and continuous.
Nothing, not a single text gives you that immediate absolute salvation at the initial momment of faith and then faith only either. NOt a single one, nada, zip.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

From you, you view, not God's when:
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You are not shedding any blood are you?

Hebrews 6

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

praying
God reveals this mature truth to you.

God bless, homewardbound; Sin in our lives brings broken fellowship with God and his Son - we are to ask forgiveness according to 1 John 1:9. That is what I was referring to. Thanks.

 

[Atwood]

Originally Posted by RickyZ

My nephew, who in his teens and 20's was a huge Jesus freak, now in his 30's says there is no God and that salvation in Jesus is a flat out lie.

So, because he accepted it in his early years, he does not suffer the same fate as all blasphemers for outright rejecting Him now?

Still haven't heard any OSAS proponent address this. It's not a set up. This is a true situation. I'd just like to hear how someone who with his own lips denies the Christ is going to get in.

Perhaps you all avoid it because you can't justify it.

Avoid it?
Where have you been all my life?

(He asked her, "Where have you been all my life?"
She answered: "Most of it, I wasn't born!"

Eternal security is not the POV that all professed Christians are eternally secure, but that the one who has trusted Christ as Savior is eternally secure. It is not professors who are secure, but possessors, the born again.

1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

It takes a conscious decision to accept Christ. Only a conscious decision to reject Him can rescind that. Sin can't do it, God won't do it, but a person's free will decision to deny can. And will.

Would you mind proving this theory?

You can no more rescind trusting Christ as Savior and being a Child of God than you can rescind your natural birth and stop being the children of your parents.

"They shall never perish."

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

 

[Atwood]

God bless, homewardbound; Sin in our lives brings broken fellowship with God and his Son - we are to ask forgiveness according to 1 John 1:9. That is what I was referring to. Thanks.

Afternoon peaceful.

I don't object to a Christian asking the Lord to forgive Him, but 1 John 1:9 doesn't say to do it.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

And I am not arguing with you when I observe that it does not fulfill 1 John 1:9 to pray, "Forgive us our debts." That is no confession of sin. What is needed is "I confess that at 2 PM yesterday, I stole a pig from farmer Brown."

 

[Timeline]

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

The NASB say close to being cursed, but it also says that it ends up being burned.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


I don't know, but I wouldn't count on being saved, and become disrespectful and unthankful towards God. Not only because I could lose my gift, but because I want to love Him with all of my heart.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, [SUP]5 [/SUP]does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, [SUP]6 [/SUP]does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; [SUP]7 [/SUP]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

It's funny (not haha), but Paul's definition seems to lean more toward our "brother" than God. Or I guess I should say it more readily applies to our fellow man.

1 John 4:20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

 

[Timeline]

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

The NASB say close to being cursed, but it also says that it ends up being burned.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


I don't know, but I wouldn't count on being saved, and become disrespectful and unthankful towards God. Not only because I could lose my gift, but because I want to love Him with all of my heart.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, [SUP]5 [/SUP]does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, [SUP]6 [/SUP]does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; [SUP]7 [/SUP]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

It's funny (not haha), but Paul's definition seems to lean more toward our "brother" than God. Or I guess I should say it more readily applies to our fellow man.

1 John 4:20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Sorry if anything above doesn't make sense. I haven't really slept in about 36-40 hours and kept dozing while I was writing it . So I will go sleep now as a window of opportunity has shown itself.

 

[Atwood]

Once Upon a Time in the Country of Lower Slobbovia,

a used car salesman told a buyer,
"If you buy this car, you will have an eternal guarantee on this car."

So the buyer bought.
On the way home, the car broke. So the buyer had the car towed back to the used car lot, demanding satisfaction.

The salesman said, "I said if you buy this car," which used the present tense of "buy." Now it is the future, so your guarantee is no good."

The disgruntled buyer contacted the District Attorney, who charged the salesman with fraud.

At the end of the trial, the judge sentenced the salesman to 20 years of hard labor, but added, if you pay your fine of $1000, you will be secure in a release from prison. The salesman had no money to pay, so he went to prison. However, the next day his wife paid his fine for him.

The salesman petitioned the court for a release from prison. But the judge denied it saying, "I told you that if you pay your fine, you will be secure in a release from prison. But I used the present tense when I said, 'If you pay,' and you paid your fine in the future, so you must stay in prison."

Word of all those happenings reached the dictator of the country, who had both the salesman and judge fed to a wood-chipping machine for pettifogging and abusing language.

Atwood,
Yes, that is correct. The Church Christ founded is the Church to which I submitt. Christ is the Head of that Church, and enlivened by the Holy Spirit. What He stated, and has preserved within His Body is what I believe.

So then Cassian, you put human tradition above the Word of God like the Pharisees?
But thanks for your honesty. How do you know that your organization is infallible? What is your proof?

At this point you have not produced any text that supports your interpretation.

Absurd, I have posted a ton of verses which declare the security of the believer in the Lord Jesus. Your canard about the present tense is nonsense, as the future tense is also used, and moreover, how should a promise be made of security but to the one who presently trusts Christ as Savior. The promise to the present believer is future security, as the Bible declares over and over.
They shall never perish.

Talking about Calvin & Augustine are irrelevant. The question is What saith the Lord?

changing the meaning of the texts you do us such as John 5:24.

The meaning of John 5:24 has not been changed by myself. It is clear as a bell, unless you have blind eyes and a hard heart.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes [present tense] him that sent me, has eternal life [eternal includes the future], and cometh not into judgment [reference to future judgment], but has passed out of death into life [past salvation received]/

then you quote scriptures again that do NOT support OSAS.

I posted a multitude of verses which directly declare eternal security, like shall never perish.

Now you make a bunch of other assertions which go no where, since it has not scripture, and you are not a prophet.

God saved every human being from death and sin.

More nonsense posted on your own authority -- no scripture. You post an incredible amount of nonsense without any Bible proof. Why waste your time?

God does not bypass His purpose of creating man, then redeeming Him so He and man could be reunited.
He has already accomplished this by His resurrection but the consummation occurs at the eschotan, I Cor 15:53. All the dead will be raised immortal and incorruptible.

1 Cor 15:53 does not support your claims. And it is noted that you do not quote it.

there's that present tense, active, continuous verb, believe again.

The present believer is guaranteed eternal life and security in the future. Shall never perish.

Man can stop believing at any time.

No proof. Give proof of your spoof, or retract.

ONe needs to overcome. That is the condition. Falls right back on the word, believes. present tense, active and continuous.

The fact that a man who is now presently believing in Christ is given a promise for the future, does not negate the validity of the future secured promise.

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God [happens at a moment in time] overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

The believer is the overcomer; He who has faith has overcome [complete action in the past which continues in its results]

Nothing, not a single text gives you that immediate absolute salvation at the initial momment of faith and then faith only either. NOt a single one, nada, zip.

Somehow your sentence collapsed in grammatical nonsense.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us [a point in time in the past for current believers] again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away
[ in the future], reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time [future].

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.