It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[svedbygrace]

I have not seen anyone that denies 1 Pet 1:5. I have seen yourself and others try and force ES into this verse when it is not there. The verse does NOT say "kept by the power of God unconditionally" as some wish it would have said.

You deny it. It plainly states that the born again ones of Vs 3 are kept by the Power of God !

 

[peacefulbeliever]

1 Jn 1:7,9 present and future sins are NOT cleansed away/forgiven if the Christian does not sustained his walking in the light/confessing his sins.

They are:

1) trying to get around these obedient WORKS (walking/confessing) that are necessary to maintain/sustain/keep the promise of salvation.

2) trying to get around both these CONDITIONAL verses (1 Jn 1:7,9) that use "IF" which makes salvation CONDITIONAL not unconditional as ES falsely makes it.

Because we are to ask forgiveness for sin to restore fellowship does not mean that before that we were UN-born again. How does that work exactly becoming UN-born? I hope God has a lot of erasers in heaven because he would have to erase a person's name when they sin, write it back when they ask forgiveness, erase it, write it back, erase it, write it back - I'm sure you get it and I don't believe that is how it works.

Whether I confess or not has nothing to do with my salvation [I'm not saying that anyone does that] - my faith is what over comes. My salvation rest in being born again of God's spirit and that spirit remains in me and is incorruptible. I can not please God in the flesh (Romans 8:8) because in the flesh dwells no good thing (Rom. 7:18) - that is the whole point of being born again of God's spirit.

 

[SeaBass]

"There is none who does good, no not one." Romans



Have you yet taken it to heart, how all your phony righteousnesses are as filthy rags? Once you do that, you will understand why you must be saved by grace.



Luke 6:46 does not negate the fact that men may receive the free gift of eternal life, have themselves completely cleansed, yet stumble in many ways and need foot-washing.



Believe = trust the Lord Jesus (not your works).
Repent = change mind from non-trust to trust (same thing).

Confess before men: Your Luke passage doesn't mention the word save or eternal life. Stick to passages which are definitely about salvation. Confess before men cannot be an essential act for salvation, because 1) salvation is often offered just for believing / faith and 2) confessing before men is a work; and works do not save. "Not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Confess Rom 10:9-13 (go through 13, don't stop at 10)
Confess = homologeo (homo = same; log- = saying). Saying the same thing is agreeing. When one trusts Christ as savior, one must AGREE with the Lord about Who the Lord Jesus is. Jesús the Mexican mechanic cannot save you and trusting him does no good; neither is it salvific to trust Michael the Archangel. Lord in context refers to YHWH, as Rom 10:13 proves, since it quote the OT applying YHWH to Jesus; Whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be saved. Thus to be saved, the only requirement is faith in the Savior, but the Savior must be real, not a figment of the imagination or an idol. One must trust the Jesus who is YHWH, God become man, risen from the dead.

Be baptized.
1) The very rare verses that mention baptized in this context, do not mention water.
2) "baptized" is not something men do, it is something done to them; they are passive.
3) Being baptized into Christ (as opposed to into water) in Rom 6 places the believer into Christ and thus make his Old Man co-crucified with Christ. All believers are baptized with the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13)
4) Since salvation is offered over and over just for belief / faith, baptism cannot be an essential act by man for his salvation. If it were, it would be a work, which cannot save.



None of these verses indicates that man is saved by works and not by faith in Christ.

Rom 3:12 is being directed at the Jews, (verse 19) to prove they were no better than the Gentiles, that Jews were sinners just like Gentiles. It is not teaching total depravity.


I have demonstrated how Isa 64:5 is being misused. Isa 64:5 God helps/meets/entreats those that work righteousness, not treat as filty rags. Acts 10:35 God accepted those that work righteousness not treated as filthy rags. The context of Isa 64:6 speaks of Israel at a time they were in iniquity.


Beleive is a work, Jn 6:27-29 it is obedience, Jn 3:36 that inlcudes baptism, Acts 2:41,44.

repentance is a work, Mt 12:41 cf Jonah 3:10. Those that do not do this obedient work that God has given man to do are the impentinent that will be lost, Rom 2:4,4

Confession, Mt 10:32,33 those that do not confess Christ will be denied by Christ before God. Rom 10:10 confession UNTO, IN ORDER TO OBTAIN salvation.


Baptism if for, in order to obtain remission of sins/salvation. Baptizo means an immersion.

F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106).

So baptized in Mk 16:16 is a literal immersion in water, nothing in the text shows it is being used figuratively. The baptism of Mk 16;16 and Mt 28:19,20 is Christ's baptism of the great commission that humans (disciples) administering water baptism.

Lk 6:46 one cannot even call Jesus "Lord" if they do not do what He says to do.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

But if ES were true, then why does a Christian need an advocate for?

We need an advocate because we will not attain perfectness. We need an advocate to defend us because Satan accuses the brethren before God day and night. Even an innocent person goes before a judge with an advocate.

 

[SeaBass]

The book of Romans is a doctrinal epistle and that tells us how to be saved. I don't believe a person would even want to confess Jesus Christ as Lord without turning to him with Godly sorrow which works repentance to salvation (2 Co. 7:10).

The church at Ephesus was sealed - as are all the faithful in Christ Jesus. I don't claim to understand Revelation thoroughly but I don't see where the church at Ephesus was condemned - you don't know if they repented or not - scripture does not say in that context. Why do you assume that people who believe OSAS never repent nor ever ask forgiveness?

So someone that I convert is a 'work' on my part? I consider it a joy and privilege to assist someone becoming saved. I am responsible for someone's growth and walk? Did you forget = someone waters and it is God that gives the increase?
My foundation is Christ - whatever I build upon that will be made manifest. Wherefore we labour (work) that whether present or absent we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Co. 5:9,10) [good = gold, silver, precious stones; bad = wood, hay, stubble]

The book of Romans does not contain all the word of God. One must consider ALL salvic verses and not just cherry pick out certain ones.

-------

Rev 2:1-7 shows the church at Ephesus became unsealed, left their first love,were fallen and if they did not obey the command to repent, the church (candlestick) would be removed, no longer acknowledged by God.

------

1 Cor 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

Those Corinthian converts were Paul's work.

In the context of 1 Cor 3 Paul is metaphorically comparing building a building to build the church, vs 9,10. The work necessary to "build" the church is making more converts,

How did Paul "lay the foundation" of the church at Corinth? By working to make the initial converts at Corinth, Others came behind Paul and "buildeth thereon" that foundation by making more converts.

 

[Atwood]

The church is made up of the saved.

I am so glad to see you state that, Seabass. I would have Capitalized Church, since persons can definitely the members of local churches without being saved -- I was one myself for years. Sprinkled as a baby, dunked in the river at 9 (different denomination). Yet if I were asked if I would go to Heaven when I died, I did not know. I confused the concept of getting eternal life (salvation) with the outcome of the Sheep and Goat judgment in Mat 25.

And I am glad to see you affirm the concept of "saved," not just "chance-given-to-be saved."

If it depended upon our obedience, we would surely be lost.

But thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift.
He Who spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all,
how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?

 

[SeaBass]

We need an advocate because we will not attain perfectness. We need an advocate to defend us because Satan accuses the brethren before God day and night. Even an innocent person goes before a judge with an advocate.

If losing salvation were not possible, no sin can cause one to be lost, then one needs no advocate. Only those GUILTY of sin are lost, and an 'unguilty', saved person needs no attorney on his behalf.

 

[SeaBass]

I am so glad to see you state that, Seabass. I would have Capitalized Church, since persons can definitely the members of local churches without being saved -- I was one myself for years. Sprinkled as a baby, dunked in the river at 9 (different denomination). Yet if I were asked if I would go to Heaven when I died, I did not know. I confused the concept of getting eternal life (salvation) with the outcome of the Sheep and Goat judgment in Mat 25.

And I am glad to see you affirm the concept of "saved," not just "chance-given-to-be saved."

If it depended upon our obedience, we would surely be lost.

But thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift.
He Who spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all,
how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?

The church, the body of Christ, is not made up of the unsaved.

 

[Atwood]

The book of Romans does not contain all the word of God. One must consider ALL salvic verses and not just cherry pick out certain ones.

But they all agree and must be interpreted to agree (hermeneutic called "Analogy of the Faith."

Rev 2:1-7 shows the church at Ephesus became unsealed, left their first love,were fallen and if they did not obey the command to repent, the church (candlestick) would be removed, no longer acknowledged by God.

You really need to focus on verses that speak of "salvation" and "eternal life," and stop making unwarranted inferences from non-"salvation" passages.

Local or City Churches are not sealed. Individuals are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and only the regenerate are sealed, not the degenerates playing church, not the tares. The City Church of Ephesus was removed, I think. I don't believe there is such a church any more. If the regenerate individuals in Ephesus were sealed when they believed around AD 55, that proves nothing about the entire congregation 40 years later.

I challenge you to quote one verse where anyone is ever unsealed by the Spirit. To speak of unsealing means they weren't sealed. Something leaked! As a matter of fact sealed Christians can grieve the Holy Spirit, but He never leaves the Body of Christ members as He did Israelites in OT times.

1 Cor 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? Those Corinthian converts were Paul's work.

By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

The negated works are the believer's works which don't save. But lots of works were done to save a Christian, but not by the Christian. Primarily, the work was done by the Lord Jesus Who said, "It is finished." But the Lord sends evangelists to give the Word of God whereby persons develop faith.

Think of the danger of that, Seabass. What might happen to you if you meditated on the verses I have posted (forgetting if you wish my comments.) It might help if:
you became convicted that all your righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and that when it says that none are righteous that includes you.

Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will; to the end that we should be to the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

The earnest money has been paid. The Lord is not going to forfeit His earnest money on this construction project.

 

[Alligator]

I am so glad to see you state that, Seabass. I would have Capitalized Church, since persons can definitely the members of local churches without being saved -- I was one myself for years. Sprinkled as a baby, dunked in the river at 9 (different denomination). Yet if I were asked if I would go to Heaven when I died, I did not know. I confused the concept of getting eternal life (salvation) with the outcome of the Sheep and Goat judgment in Mat 25.

And I am glad to see you affirm the concept of "saved," not just "chance-given-to-be saved."

If it depended upon our obedience, we would surely be lost.

But thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift.
He Who spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all,
how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?

The church, the body of Christ, is not made up of the unsaved.

.

And, there was no such thing as "churches" in the first century. There was one church and those saved were automatically added to it . Acts 2:47.

 

[Atwood]

If losing salvation were not possible, no sin can cause one to be lost, then one needs no advocate. Only those GUILTY of sin are lost, and an 'unguilty', saved person needs no attorney on his behalf.

Seabass, again you quote no verse that speaks of salvation or eternal life. You make unwarranted inferences. Once the defendant has been executed, what good does an Advocate do him? But I tell you that the Christian's Advocate has never lost a case!

The Advocate keeps us saved. Should satan accuse, He can plead on our behalf, "Yea Father, Atwood sinned, but I paid for His sin on the cross. He must be not only acquitted, but declared righteous, for He is part of My Body. My righteousness has been imputed to Him. Of course if he doesn't shape up, we can send him to ye olde woodshed rehab clinic for a while."

satan: "Le'me help, Le'me help, Le'me help!"

A scary thing happened in my life some 20 years ago. I had a friend at work named Alan. He gave every appearance to me of being a born-again Christian. His wife had taken their son and gone home to mama, a woman with a vicious reputation. It was Easter, and he had been planning to buy something for his little boy.

As I was leaving work, he remarked to me like:
"Atwood, what if a Christian just goes on sinning."

I said to him like, "Alan, God will take you to the woodshed."
He replied, "What does that mean?"

I left without explaining.

By the end of that day, Alan was dead! He had gone to his mother-in-law's house apparently to try to persuade his wife to come back home. The report I got was that his mother-in-law shot him 6 times with a .380.

There is a sin to death. A Christian may be delivered to satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved.

1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

 

[Atwood]

.

And, there was no such thing as "churches" in the first century. There was one church and those saved were automatically added to it . Acts 2:47.

Alligator, I don't know how you could say such a thing. Have you run a concordance check on "churches"?

If you mean "denominations," like the alleged "Methodist Church," etc. that concept is foreign to the Bible. Ekklesia is never used for a denominations. But surely there were local or regional churches, as well as individual churches that me in certain individual's homes (see start of Philemon).

1 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.


5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily.


4 who for my life laid down their own necks; unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles:


16 Salute one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ salute you.


17 Only, as the Lord hath distributed to each man, as God hath called each, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all the churches.


16 But if any man seemeth to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.


33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints,
34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.


16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I gave order to the churches of Galatia, so also do ye.


19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Prisca salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.


8:1 Moreover, brethren, we make known to you the grace of God which hath been given in the churches of Macedonia;


18 And we have sent together with him the brother whose praise in the gospel is spread through all the churches; 19 and not only so, but who was also appointed by the churches to travel with us in the matter of this grace, which is ministered by us to the glory of the Lord, and to show our readiness:


23 Whether any inquire about Titus, he is my partner and my fellow-worker to you-ward; or our brethren, they are the messengers of the churches, they are the glory of Christ. 24 Show ye therefore unto them in the face of the churches the proof of your love, and of our glorying on your behalf.


8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them that I might minister unto you;


28 Besides those things that are without, there is that which presseth upon me daily, anxiety for all the churches.


13 For what is there wherein ye were made inferior to the rest of the churches, except it be that I myself was not a burden to you? forgive me this wrong.


2 and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:


22 And I was still unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:


14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;


4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which ye endure;


4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne;


11 saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


20 the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks are seven churches.


7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.


11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it.


23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto each one of you according to your works.


29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.


6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.


13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.


22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.


16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright, the morning star.

 

[Alligator]

Alligator, I don't know how you could say such a thing. Have you run a concordance check on "churches"?

If you mean "denominations," like the alleged "Methodist Church," etc. that concept is foreign to the Bible. Ekklesia is never used for a denominations. But surely there were local or regional churches, as well as individual churches that me in certain individual's homes (see start of Philemon).

1 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.


5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily.


4 who for my life laid down their own necks; unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles:


16 Salute one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ salute you.


17 Only, as the Lord hath distributed to each man, as God hath called each, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all the churches.


16 But if any man seemeth to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.


33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints,
34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.


16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I gave order to the churches of Galatia, so also do ye.


19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Prisca salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.


8:1 Moreover, brethren, we make known to you the grace of God which hath been given in the churches of Macedonia;


18 And we have sent together with him the brother whose praise in the gospel is spread through all the churches; 19 and not only so, but who was also appointed by the churches to travel with us in the matter of this grace, which is ministered by us to the glory of the Lord, and to show our readiness:


23 Whether any inquire about Titus, he is my partner and my fellow-worker to you-ward; or our brethren, they are the messengers of the churches, they are the glory of Christ. 24 Show ye therefore unto them in the face of the churches the proof of your love, and of our glorying on your behalf.


8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them that I might minister unto you;


28 Besides those things that are without, there is that which presseth upon me daily, anxiety for all the churches.


13 For what is there wherein ye were made inferior to the rest of the churches, except it be that I myself was not a burden to you? forgive me this wrong.


2 and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:


22 And I was still unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:


14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;


4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which ye endure;


4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne;


11 saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


20 the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks are seven churches.


7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.


11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it.


23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto each one of you according to your works.


29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.


6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.


13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.


22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.


16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright, the mornin. star.

of course I meant denominations. That's why I put it in quotations

 

[Atwood]

Originally Posted by Atwood

"There is none who does good, no not one." Romans

Have you yet taken it to heart, how all your phony righteousnesses are as filthy rags? Once you do that, you will understand why you must be saved by grace.

Luke 6:46 does not negate the fact that men may receive the free gift of eternal life, have themselves completely cleansed, yet stumble in many ways and need foot-washing.

Believe = trust the Lord Jesus (not your works).
Repent = change mind from non-trust to trust (same thing).

Confess before men: Your Luke passage doesn't mention the word save or eternal life. Stick to passages which are definitely about salvation. Confess before men cannot be an essential act for salvation, because 1) salvation is often offered just for believing / faith and 2) confessing before men is a work; and works do not save. "Not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Confess Rom 10:9-13 (go through 13, don't stop at 10)
Confess = homologeo (homo = same; log- = saying). Saying the same thing is agreeing. When one trusts Christ as savior, one must AGREE with the Lord about Who the Lord Jesus is. Jesús the Mexican mechanic cannot save you and trusting him does no good; neither is it salvific to trust Michael the Archangel. Lord in context refers to YHWH, as Rom 10:13 proves, since it quote the OT applying YHWH to Jesus; Whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be saved. Thus to be saved, the only requirement is faith in the Savior, but the Savior must be real, not a figment of the imagination or an idol. One must trust the Jesus who is YHWH, God become man, risen from the dead.

Be baptized.
1) The very rare verses that mention baptized in this context, do not mention water.
2) "baptized" is not something men do, it is something done to them; they are passive.
3) Being baptized into Christ (as opposed to into water) in Rom 6 places the believer into Christ and thus make his Old Man co-crucified with Christ. All believers are baptized with the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13)
4) Since salvation is offered over and over just for belief / faith, baptism cannot be an essential act by man for his salvation. If it were, it would be a work, which cannot save.

None of these verses indicates that man is saved by works and not by faith in Christ.

Rom 3:12 is being directed at the Jews, (verse 19) to prove they were no better than the Gentiles, that Jews were sinners just like Gentiles. It is not teaching total depravity.

On the contrary, the Jews are only part of the none righteous. The idea that "none righteous" excluded gentiles (who were righteous) is nonsense. Will you confess that the none righteous includes you?

I have demonstrated how Isa 64:5 is being misused. Isa 64:5 God helps/meets/entreats those that work righteousness, not treat as filty rags. Acts 10:35 God accepted those that work righteousness not treated as filthy rags. The context of Isa 64:6 speaks of Israel at a time they were in iniquity.

No, you have not demonstrated it. And if you think that modern men have righteousness vs ancient Israel, you err. The reason why they were sinners in Isaiah, is as Rom 5 explains, because they belonged to Adam, not to Abraham or Jacob. And all men find themselves belonging to Adam until they find membership in the Lord Jesus.

There is none who does good, no not one -- whether Israelite or gentile.

Beleive is a work, Jn 6:27-29 it is obedience, Jn 3:36 that inlcudes baptism, Acts 2:41,44
[/unquote]

Over and over believe is contrasted with works; faith is the polar opposite in salvation. Belief is a non-work; it is resting in the Savior.
You need give diligence to enter the rest of faith. Come to Me . . . and I will give you rest.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works."

Yes, to believe is obedience to the gospel. When will you do it? When will you rest from your works and just trust the SAvior?

Belief does not include baptism. Baptism cannot be essential to salvation, since salvation is promised many times just for faith in Christ.

Neither John 6, nor John 3, nor Acts 2 contradicts those truths.

repentance is a work, Mt 12:41 cf Jonah 3:10. Those that do not do this obedient work that God has given man to do are the impentinent that will be lost, Rom 2:4,4[/unquote]

No repentance is not a work, it is a change of mind, in particular from non-trust to trust in the Savior. Neither Mt 12, nor Jonah 3 nor Rom 2 contradicts that truth.

Those who don't have the change of mind to trusting Christ indeed are lost.

Confession, Mt 10:32,33 those that do not confess Christ will be denied by Christ before God. Rom 10:10 confession UNTO, IN ORDER TO OBTAIN salvation.

Mat 10 says nothing about salvation or obtaining eternal life. You make unwarranted inferences from passages which are not on that topic. All sinners face denial if they do not trust Christ as SAvior. And your Mat 10 passages says nothing about those who fail to confess before men. Denial is not failure to confess. But the passage must be interpreted in harmony with the totality of scripture: You may not be saved by works lest you boast.

Rom 10 I explained above. "Confess" = homologeo (say same). One must agree with God that the Lord Jesus is YHWH to be saved, have Jesus properly defined when you call on His name. It is not a work.

Baptism if for, in order to obtain remission of sins/salvation. Baptizo means an immersion. So baptized in Mk 16:16 is a literal immersion in water, . . .

F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106).

Your "so" is in error.

Baptize in Christ in Rom 6 is not baptize in water. FF Bruce is not God. He was my supervisor in England at the University of Manchester! One of the first things Bruce said to me was like "Paul over-argues himself." And he defended a man presenting a paper claiming that the resurrection accounts contradict each other, this in my presence. FF Bruce erred; by the time I knew him, he didn't even believe the Bible, though he was a Plymouth Brethren elder.

John the Baptist declared that while he baptized in water, the Lord Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit. I would not call that figurative at all.

So baptized in Mk 16:16 is a literal immersion in water, nothing in the text shows it is being used figuratively. The baptism of Mk 16;16 and Mt 28:19,20 is Christ's baptism of the great commission that humans (disciples) administering water baptism.

Your saying so proves nothing, neither Bruce's opinion. Water is not mentioned in Mark. And in the converse, it is he who fails to believe who is lost, not the man who fails to be baptized. We understand that baptism into Christ (Rom 6) is salvific for uniting us to Christ in His death. As I recall when I wrote my interpretation of Rom 6 for FF Bruce, he agreed with me there. That Spirit baptism is salvific is established then from Rom 6. And thus it makes sense to understand Mark 16 the same way. Though even there, the text doesn't say it is the essential factor. And it cannot be by correlation with faith-only passages.

That baptism is not essential to salvation is clear from it being only rarely used in that context, and from the fact that many, many times salvation is offered just for believing.

Lk 6:46 one cannot even call Jesus "Lord" if they do not do what He says to do.

Luke 6:46b does not say "cannot." Neither does that verse mention eternal life or salvation.

When will you confess that you are very disobedient and not obedient and must be saved by grace or not at all?

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.

1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.

John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

1 John 5:10-12
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.

 

[Atwood]

of course I meant denominations. That's why I put it in quotations

I thought the quotes meant an exact form. I am glad to see you meant denominations. Then you are absolutely correct. The never has been more than one Church, the universal or catholic Church, the Body and Bride of Christ. And the only way to enter is by baptism of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13), which is obtained by trusting Christ as Savior.

Thus all who trust the Lord Jesus as only & sufficient Savior (having Him adequately defined) are part of the one Church, regardless of denomination or lack of it; and they are my brethren in Christ.

 

[Alligator]

I thought the quotes meant an exact form. I am glad to see you meant denominations. Then you are absolutely correct. The never has been more than one Church, the universal or catholic Church, the Body and Bride of Christ. And the only way to enter is by baptism of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13), which is obtained by trusting Christ as Savior.

Thus all who trust the Lord Jesus as only & sufficient Savior (having Him adequately defined) are part of the one Church, regardless of denomination or lack of it; and they are my brethren in Christ.

The Catholic Church is NOT what I had in mind.
I was referring to the New Testament church, Christ's church.

 

[Atwood]

The Catholic Church is NOT what I had in mind.
I was referring to the New Testament church, Christ's church.

LOL Alligator --

we are talking past each other.
In the NT ekklesia has a number of uses besides literal assembly.
1) universal Church (Body of Christ ) = catholic Church (small c)
2) regional (city) church, like Church at Ephesus,
3) house church, like the church that meets in X's house (e.g., start of Philemon).

The word uncapitalized "catholic" means universal. Kata = according to, hol- = whole.
catholic means "according to the whole, " universal.

To be sure the term has been grabbed by certain denominations, like the RCC (Roman being antithetical catholic), an oxymoronic name IMHO.

Take the traditional creeds in churches that recite it, those who are far from Rome will recite:

"I believe in the holy, catholic, Church."

I am glad to see you refer to the one Church, if I understand you correctly. It began in Acts 2 of the NT. As I said, all who trust Christ as SAvior are thus baptized with the Holy Spirit putting them into that Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13). This one Church is the only one that ever existed and consists of all true believers today, regardless on denomination or non-denomination.

You know the old hymn:
The Church's One Foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord,
She is His new creation . . .

Elect from every nation, yet one o'er all the earth

I must go sing it; I love that hymn.

The Bride of Christ is indeed something special,
and it is a great privilege to be incorporated into it.

 

[Alligator]

LOL Alligator --

we are talking past each other.
In the NT ekklesia has a number of uses besides literal assembly.
1) universal Church (Body of Christ ) = catholic Church (small c)
2) regional (city) church, like Church at Ephesus,
3) house church, like the church that meets in X's house (e.g., start of Philemon).

The word uncapitalized "catholic" means universal. Kata = according to, hol- = whole.
catholic means "according to the whole, " universal.

To be sure the term has been grabbed by certain denominations, like the RCC (Roman being antithetical catholic), an oxymoronic name IMHO.

Take the traditional creeds in churches that recite it, those who are far from Rome will recite:

"I believe in the holy, catholic, Church."

I am glad to see you refer to the one Church, if I understand you correctly. It began in Acts 2 of the NT. As I said, all who trust Christ as SAvior are thus baptized with the Holy Spirit putting them into that Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13). This one Church is the only one that ever existed and consists of all true believers today, regardless on denomination or non-denomination.

You know the old hymn:
The Church's One Foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord,
She is His new creation . . .

Elect from every nation, yet one o'er all the earth

I must go sing it; I love that hymn.

The Bride of Christ is indeed something special,
and it is a great privilege to be incorporated into it.

When I use the term "ekklesia", I always mean the called out, or the body of Christ.

 

[Atwood]

When I use the term "ekklesia", I always mean the called out, or the body of Christ.

Thanks for the info, Alligator.

When I mean the Body of Christ, I use a capital on Church.

 

[Atwood]

You deny it. It plainly states that the born again ones of Vs 3 are kept by the Power of God !

Good comment, SBG,

It would appear to me that those who deny eternal security want to be "saved" by their own power, which is strange for a passive verb for which the Lord Jesus is the Savior and the man to be saved is the savee. Thus it appears to me that along with a denial of eternal security goes an underestimate of man's sinfulness and an overestimate of man's power.

The desperate weakness (even of the Christian) is delineated in Romans 7, where the man unaided by the Spirit is defeated by his flesh.