K
Follow up thoughts of the "RAPTURE" from previous post!
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K
Kerry
Guest
L
LT
Guest
There surely is an absolute truth about when Christ will come for His Church,
But the answer is not clear in Scripture (although it is certainly there),
and it is not an important topic.
If this was an important issue that we had to understand, then God would have spoken about it more often, and more clearly.
The Gospel is laid out over and over, in many clear ways.... but the Day of the Lord is still a mystery, and will remain so until that Day comes.
On that Day, there will be no mistaking it.
Don't fret over such things. It makes idle hands out of curious minds.
Search for the truths that can be shown and learned, not the mysteries yet to be revealed.
But the answer is not clear in Scripture (although it is certainly there),
and it is not an important topic.
If this was an important issue that we had to understand, then God would have spoken about it more often, and more clearly.
The Gospel is laid out over and over, in many clear ways.... but the Day of the Lord is still a mystery, and will remain so until that Day comes.
On that Day, there will be no mistaking it.
Don't fret over such things. It makes idle hands out of curious minds.
Search for the truths that can be shown and learned, not the mysteries yet to be revealed.
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Asking questions for understanding does not make one stupid, especially on a subject that is not clear. I am glad your level of comprehension on the subject does not require you to ask questions. God bless.
and you're right should focus on the truths that can be shown.
S
Sinnner
Guest
I believe it's important. When the tribulation starts and many who are expecting the rapture and it doesn't happen (pre), many will lose faith. Many may suffer for lack of resources also because they are not prepared. God provided manna from heaven and water from a stone so He could do it again. I think it's very serious.
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Kerry
Guest
hey y'all oh I forgot his name but he was Tammy faye's husband. He has a package that he will sale you post people it comes with a generator ( I don't know why you can't buy gas unless you take the mark) and dried rice that will last a family of four for 6 months. Makes know since when it's going to last at least 3 1/2 years. It's only about 5,000 so call him up get one for yourself.
That would be Jim Baker. I get the sarcasm but nothing says you need to last 3.5 years without being able to buy or sell without the mark. We are not told when the mark comes into play or how much time lapses. We are told that those days will be shortened and we are further told that they are shortened because of the Elect.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
The Elect are not a ragtag group of new believers who come to Christ after the so-called Rapture. The Elect are God's Chosen people sealed with His knowledge and truth who CANNOT be deceived by Satan and will NOT take the Mark of the Beast.
Roger,
The Great Tribulation is NOT for Israel. I think you have that idea confused with Jacob's Trouble. Jacob's Trouble is hardship which Israel will face and may overlap into the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is NOT of God, but rather of Satan. The Great Tribulation is the Temptation of Satan trying to convince Christians that he is Christ, Christians first then the rest of the world.
Those who think the Great Tribulation is God's Wrath against an evil world are dead wrong. God's wrath comes AFTER the Tribulation of those days.
L
Linda70
Guest
God has not appointed the Church/the Body of Christ to His wrath:
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
The Great Tribulation (7 years) is the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27). It is also the time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7).
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Sorry, but those who believe that the Great Tribulation is NOT God's wrath are dead wrong. The "day of the Lord" is found 26 times in 24 verses in the OT. The "day of His wrath" is found 32 times in only 6 verses in the OT. The "day of the Lord" and the "day of His wrath" refer to the Great Tribulation...it's really quite plain to see when one rightly divides the Word and makes a distinction between Israel and the Church. The Tribulation is not for the Church.
I'll be back later and list all those verses....but to say that the Tribulation is not God's wrath is foolhardy!
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
It should be clear that the Great Tribulation is all about Satanic deception and not about any Wrath of God. The word, "Tribulation or Tribulations" appears just 30 times in the whole Bible. In all cases "Tribulation(s)" is used to describe persecution, trouble, trial or testing of believers - not wrath of God against the wicked.*
Here are some Great Tribulation passages for those interested. There will be an event - A SATANIC deceptive event where the WHOLE WORLD will be tested. This is crystal clear.
Rev 3:
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
Mat 24:
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Eph 6:
11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
2 Thes 2:
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
We know of 4 instances on earth were Satan came to deceive and get people to worship him:
1. Satan came to deceive Adam and Eve in the Garden.
2. Satan tried to deceive Christ into worshiping him.
3. Satan will come during the Great Tribulation claiming to be Christ.
4. Satan will be let loose after the millennium again to deceive before he is finally cast into Lake of Fire.
Satan does not need to come to deceive the unbeliever. He has already accomplished that!! Satan comes to deceive the believer and turn the believer against God. The notion that all believers will be taken off earth to heaven not only defies the pattern, it defies logic.
God has given us free will to believe in him or not. To have free will, we must be given a chance to exercise that free will. Those on earth at the end of the current era will not have that chance to have their faith tested if they aren't here.
* the only time tribulation(s) appears and discusses something other than the believer is when God repays those who have been persecuting believers.
Here are some Great Tribulation passages for those interested. There will be an event - A SATANIC deceptive event where the WHOLE WORLD will be tested. This is crystal clear.
Rev 3:
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
Mat 24:
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Eph 6:
11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
2 Thes 2:
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
We know of 4 instances on earth were Satan came to deceive and get people to worship him:
1. Satan came to deceive Adam and Eve in the Garden.
2. Satan tried to deceive Christ into worshiping him.
3. Satan will come during the Great Tribulation claiming to be Christ.
4. Satan will be let loose after the millennium again to deceive before he is finally cast into Lake of Fire.
Satan does not need to come to deceive the unbeliever. He has already accomplished that!! Satan comes to deceive the believer and turn the believer against God. The notion that all believers will be taken off earth to heaven not only defies the pattern, it defies logic.
God has given us free will to believe in him or not. To have free will, we must be given a chance to exercise that free will. Those on earth at the end of the current era will not have that chance to have their faith tested if they aren't here.
* the only time tribulation(s) appears and discusses something other than the believer is when God repays those who have been persecuting believers.
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Dear Sister in Christ. The idea that the Great Tribulation = the Wrath of God is not supported by scripture. It is a Tradition of Man - A PRIVATE INTERPRETATION and just simply is NOT TRUE and NOT BIBLICAL.
2 Peter 1:
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
If you read what Christ describes as happening between Mat 24:21-29 you will not find one word about God's wrath. All Christ discusses is Satanic deception and that God will actually shorten those days specifically for the ELECT. God has to step in and stop what Satan is doing.
God's wrath is found in the 7 Bowl judgments of Revelation 16. These bowls are poured out after the Tribulation is over and they are poured out in direct response to Satan's antics of the Great Tribulation.
See Rev 18:
6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.
See 2 Thes 1:
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Satan is clearly identified as the culprit in Rev 9:
11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
Tribulation has always been about the believer being persecuted. I agree that the Church is not appointed to God's wrath. However, the church has always been and continues to be and will always be persecuted and face tribulation!! There are many, many passages which teach this. There is not a single passage which teaches that the church is spared tribulation at the very end during the worst period of persecution!!! Show me where the below doctrine is suddenly reversed for the End Times Believer???
We are PROMISED TRIBULATION dear Linda. Christ's own disciples, the Fathers of the church all faced Tribulation and 11 of 12 were killed. What makes you think that the End Times Church is any more special than the past 2,000 years of church persecutions? See the below absolute Biblical principle.
Acts 14:22 NKJV
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."
Matthew 24:9 NKJV
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
John 16:33 NKJV
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
Romans 5:3 NKJV
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
1 Thessalonians 3:4 NKJV
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
Now show me any verse where the above doctrine has been reversed...
Again, to be persecuted and face Tribulation IS THE PROMISE of the church. It is Satan who is trying to teach the opposite principle because he is coming to deceive. Part of that deception is to get the church to be confused about the correct order of which "Christ" comes first. The other part of Satan's plan is to get Christians to be complacent so that they think there is no need to prepare for the Great Tribulation thinking "I won't be here - I'm going to be raptured" thus when they have to chose between eating and worshiping Satan or dying and staying faithful to Christ many will fail.
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Linda70
Guest
First of all, where are the editing buttons?
Secondly, PlainWord....I disagree with you on ALL your points. There is no need to post Scripture verses in bright red. When there is too much bright color in a post, I don't read it.
Thirdly, I see from what you are attempting to do and you will never convince me of your teaching. You can't possibly be interpreting the Scriptures literally..."When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense." Since you make no distinction between Israel and the Church, you blur prophecy and that is confusing.
Here is an article from my Way of Life Bible Encyclopedia on the Great Tribulation. I know this will be "against" all that you have been taught from those "post-tribulation rapture" teachers, but you really need to give heed to what dispensationalism teaches....taking into account the normal-literal interpretation of Scripture. You can't find God's wrath in the Great Tribulation because you simply are not looking for it...probably because you have been taught not to do so.
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
This is not some type of "trial and trouble and testing of believers"....this Great Tribulation will be worse that all the World Wars, the Holocaust, VietNam, etc. It will be so bad that God will have to shorten the days of this Great Tribulation, otherwise no flesh would survive. You haven't seen the type of "tribulation" that is coming upon this earth yet.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
If you are not looking for Christ to "catch up" His Church before this 7 year tribulation period of Jacob's trouble/Daniel's 70th week, then you are looking for the antichrist. I'm looking for the "blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;", BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins!
Maranatha!
Secondly, PlainWord....I disagree with you on ALL your points. There is no need to post Scripture verses in bright red. When there is too much bright color in a post, I don't read it.
Thirdly, I see from what you are attempting to do and you will never convince me of your teaching. You can't possibly be interpreting the Scriptures literally..."When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense." Since you make no distinction between Israel and the Church, you blur prophecy and that is confusing.
Here is an article from my Way of Life Bible Encyclopedia on the Great Tribulation. I know this will be "against" all that you have been taught from those "post-tribulation rapture" teachers, but you really need to give heed to what dispensationalism teaches....taking into account the normal-literal interpretation of Scripture. You can't find God's wrath in the Great Tribulation because you simply are not looking for it...probably because you have been taught not to do so.
As you take your time and check out the Scripture references that the Great Tribulation IS God's wrath and judgment, you will see that it IS SUPPORTED by Scripture and that the teaching that Scripture doesn't support it, is foolhardy.
That is incorrect. According to Matthew 24:21PlainWord said:
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
This is not some type of "trial and trouble and testing of believers"....this Great Tribulation will be worse that all the World Wars, the Holocaust, VietNam, etc. It will be so bad that God will have to shorten the days of this Great Tribulation, otherwise no flesh would survive. You haven't seen the type of "tribulation" that is coming upon this earth yet.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
If you are not looking for Christ to "catch up" His Church before this 7 year tribulation period of Jacob's trouble/Daniel's 70th week, then you are looking for the antichrist. I'm looking for the "blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;", BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins!
Maranatha!
L
Linda70
Guest
Linda,
I will respond more fully to your post ASAP. In the meantime, please read the below passage from Paul very carefully.
2 Thes 2:
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (Day Christ Returns) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Please see the highlighted and underlined passage above. Do you see the part when Paul says, "NOT TO BE DECEIVED BY ANY MEANS?" Do you see that Paul is stating that, and I paraphrase, "CHRIST WILL NOT RETURN UNTIL THE FALLING AWAY AND THE ANTICHRIST APPEARS?
Question:
Which of the three doctrines; Pre-Trib, Pre-Wrath/Mid-Trib, or Post Trib teaches that Christ returns BEFORE the AntiChrist appears?
Question:
Would the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine which teaches a return of Christ BEFORE AntiChrist be an, "ANY MEANS" in terms of a method of deception?
It is never acceptable to apply a man-made doctrine such as Dispensationalism to alter the clear teaching found in the Bible. Further, the Pre-Trib doctrine wasn't even put forth until Darby in 1830 and wasn't even taught in the USA until 1917. The classical teaching for the first 1900 years of church history had always been ONE RETURN OF CHRIST AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Yet, you and many others run with this new teaching that Christ never taught including in His Olivet Discourse where Jesus was specifically asked about End Time signs and John doesn't include a Rapture lesson at all in Revelation.
The Rapture lesson is not found at all in the Bible as a stand alone teaching. It has to be pasted together primarily from 3 passages: 1 Thes 4:17, 1 Cor 15:50-51 and John 14:1-3. If you take 1 Thes 4:17 away, you have no rapture lesson at all!! Therefore you have to believe that Paul taught something that Jesus NEVER taught. Further if you actually study these 3 passages you will see that none of them provide a Pre-Trib timing and none teach a return trip to heaven.
I will respond more fully to your post ASAP. In the meantime, please read the below passage from Paul very carefully.
2 Thes 2:
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (Day Christ Returns) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Please see the highlighted and underlined passage above. Do you see the part when Paul says, "NOT TO BE DECEIVED BY ANY MEANS?" Do you see that Paul is stating that, and I paraphrase, "CHRIST WILL NOT RETURN UNTIL THE FALLING AWAY AND THE ANTICHRIST APPEARS?
Question:
Which of the three doctrines; Pre-Trib, Pre-Wrath/Mid-Trib, or Post Trib teaches that Christ returns BEFORE the AntiChrist appears?
Question:
Would the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine which teaches a return of Christ BEFORE AntiChrist be an, "ANY MEANS" in terms of a method of deception?
It is never acceptable to apply a man-made doctrine such as Dispensationalism to alter the clear teaching found in the Bible. Further, the Pre-Trib doctrine wasn't even put forth until Darby in 1830 and wasn't even taught in the USA until 1917. The classical teaching for the first 1900 years of church history had always been ONE RETURN OF CHRIST AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Yet, you and many others run with this new teaching that Christ never taught including in His Olivet Discourse where Jesus was specifically asked about End Time signs and John doesn't include a Rapture lesson at all in Revelation.
The Rapture lesson is not found at all in the Bible as a stand alone teaching. It has to be pasted together primarily from 3 passages: 1 Thes 4:17, 1 Cor 15:50-51 and John 14:1-3. If you take 1 Thes 4:17 away, you have no rapture lesson at all!! Therefore you have to believe that Paul taught something that Jesus NEVER taught. Further if you actually study these 3 passages you will see that none of them provide a Pre-Trib timing and none teach a return trip to heaven.
Linda,
My first point in responding is that MAN'S wisdom and/or private interpretation is no substitute for the clear Word of God. You make counter arguments to clear scripture using man's rationale. That is a very dangerous and unBiblical thing to do. But, I will gladly respond and defend God's Word. I will respond point by point to keep each response as short as possible.
Jesus does define the Great Tribulation period as stated above. However, He makes no mention of it being the Wrath of God or any judgment. Christ focused on the Deception of AntiChrist and that HE (GOD) must shorten the days for the sake of the ELECT. This alone shows that it is NOT GOD who is at work during the Great Tribulation but rather Satan. God does not endorse Satan coming as AntiChrist to deceive His believers but He allows it as He allow Christ to be tempted by the Devil. This is how we are allowed to exercise our free will.
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in Revelation that defines the beginning or ending points of the Great Tribulation. Many, many Christians make the mistake in assuming that the Great Tribulation period is covered by the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 Bowls. This assumption is absolutely FALSE. It is false because it is clear that the God's wrath comes AFTER the Tribulation is over and happens when Christ returns. We learn this from multiple passages in Mat 24, Mark 13, Rev 19 and other places.
My first point in responding is that MAN'S wisdom and/or private interpretation is no substitute for the clear Word of God. You make counter arguments to clear scripture using man's rationale. That is a very dangerous and unBiblical thing to do. But, I will gladly respond and defend God's Word. I will respond point by point to keep each response as short as possible.
Jesus does define the Great Tribulation period as stated above. However, He makes no mention of it being the Wrath of God or any judgment. Christ focused on the Deception of AntiChrist and that HE (GOD) must shorten the days for the sake of the ELECT. This alone shows that it is NOT GOD who is at work during the Great Tribulation but rather Satan. God does not endorse Satan coming as AntiChrist to deceive His believers but He allows it as He allow Christ to be tempted by the Devil. This is how we are allowed to exercise our free will.
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in Revelation that defines the beginning or ending points of the Great Tribulation. Many, many Christians make the mistake in assuming that the Great Tribulation period is covered by the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 Bowls. This assumption is absolutely FALSE. It is false because it is clear that the God's wrath comes AFTER the Tribulation is over and happens when Christ returns. We learn this from multiple passages in Mat 24, Mark 13, Rev 19 and other places.
Unlike the Rapture, there is no question that the Great Tribulation is spoken of repeatedly in the OT and NT. However, you are confusing the Great Tribulation with the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the day Christ returns. This day last 1,000 earth years which is known as the Millennium. The Great Tribulation immediately precedes the Day of the Lord. Matthew 24 is very clear about this:
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
There are no verses where any return of the Lord is placed BEFORE the Tribulation. That is an inescapable fact for which you have no credible rebuttal.
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Linda70
Guest
The Great Tribulation IS the Day of the Lord.....I am not confused, you are.
The reason you don't see that the Rapture of the Church is imminent and comes BEFORE the day of the Lord, is because you don't rightly divide the Word and you make no distinctions between Israel and the Church. You blur biblical prophecy, so you can't possibly see the sequence of events, according to the Scriptures.
Daniel 9:24-27 gives the timetable for the length of the Tribulation and it specifically states that is for Israel, not the Church. Daniel was not given any prophecy about the Church....as a matter of fact, the Church is totally absent from the OT Scriptures.
All the prophecies of Christ's first coming were LITERALLY fulfilled, therefore it is foolhardy not to believe that all the future prophecies of Christ's second coming and Kingdom will also be LITERALLY fulfilled.
When you make arguments, please provide scripture as I have done. The Day of the Lord IS the ONE AND ONLY day Christ returns.
He returns, gathers his remnant and unleashes great wrath against those who do not know Him. The timing He gives himself as AFTER the Tribulation. Show me any verse that puts an additional return Before the Tribulation, I challenge you !! You cannot apply the "RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD" concept to invent a whole additional return. Firstly, you are wrongly dividing, secondly if by "rightly dividing" concept, it would be possible to invent anything. Clearly, that is not God's intention. If it were you could rightly divide Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and anything else you wanted to invent.
Again, you state the above without any Biblical justification. I don't blurr the Church and Israel. I see them as grafted together as Paul teaches in Romans 11. However, I see them as distinct groups. The church was established in part to make the Jews jealous and because the Jews failed to recognize their Messiah. However, the church is NOT Gentile alone. The largest church in the old days was the Jewish church in Jerusalem pastored by Christ's own half-brother, James. You have no passages which states the Church is to be raptured while Israel is left behind. This is a tradition of man.
Yes, that is correct, ALL prophesy concerning Christ's Birth, His Life, His Ministry, His suffering, His crucifixion, His resurrection, His ascension have been fulfilled. Also prophesied but still unfulfilled is His Second Coming. I find it very interesting that there is no mention of any Rapture return in the OT (and I'd argue NT) when everything else was foretold.
Again, Paul specifically warns you NOT TO BE DECEIVED BY ANY MEANS should someone try to tell you Christ returns Before the Man of Sin appears. Paul does not mention any exception for a Rapture Return for his warning. Instead, He says, "BY ANY MEANS!!" You chose to ignore Paul. In fact you chose to twist Paul's word just as Peter says they will be twisted and that those who twist them do so to their own destruction.
Dear Linda, IF there is a Rapture return before the Tribulation, I will be taken too thus there is no harm in me believing in One Return Post Trib (which is what is clearly taught). However, if you are wrong and there is no Pre-Trib Rapture at a minimum, you will be unprepared if not totally distraught into thinking you were misled. We know there is an Apostasy coming. What do you supposes causes it? Millions of Christians thinking they were to be raptured who finally find themselves having to chose between worshiping the Beast or not eating and dying could certainly cause an apostasy.
You see Christ's warnings to His Elect not to worship the False Christ as pertaining to Tribulation Era Saints.
You see Paul's warnings about the correct sequence of events as pertaining to Tribulation Era Saints.
You see John's teachings in Rev 7 about the Great Multitude killed during the Tribulation as pertaining to Tribulation Era Saints.
However, there is no distinction in the Bible made between any saint nor is the concept of a Tribulation Era Saint taught. If I were you, I'd be concerned about these things since you are the one who is believing a doctrine that is not taught and conflicts with multiple clear teachings. I say this with Love dear sister.
L
Linda70
Guest
So my previous post #53 didn't provide enough Scripture? And according to the Scripture provided, the Day of the Lord IS the Great Tribulation (7 years--according to Daniel 9:24-27), and even includes the Millennial Kingdom (1,000 years). So the Day of the Lord is not just ONE day as you say, it is an extended period of time.
It's obvious you don't understand what "rightly dividing the Word means". I am not "inventing" another return. The second coming will be in two phases. In reading prophecy in the OT, sometimes the first and second coming were combined into one verse and if a person doesn't rightly divide, the prophecy will become blurry and confusing.
In I Thessalonians 1:9,10 it states that Jesus is coming to deliver His saints, the body of Christ, from "the wrath to come."
1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
The first century believers were looking for the imminent return of Christ.
The Church and Israel are NOT grafted together. The saved Gentiles are grafted into the spiritual promises and blessings of the New Covenant (the Covenant which God made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel--Jeremiah 31:31). The Church is not grafted into the nation of Israel according to Romans 11. Therefore, you are blurring biblical prophecy. God is not finished with the nation of Israel and He will judge them during the 7 year tribulation (time of Jacob's trouble/Day of the Lord) after the rapture of the Church. The saved Jews are the branches of the olive tree which were not "broken off" and the saved Gentiles are "grafted into" the place where the unbelieving/unsaved Jews were "broken off".
No, the nation of Israel (in unbelief) will not be raptured. The rapture is for the Church (Saved Jews and saved Gentiles).
As I said before, and you keep rejecting, is that there is NO mention of the Church in the OT, therefore, since the rapture is for the Church and not unbelieving Israel, you won't find the rapture in the OT. Then we come to the NT....the rapture is there, but you won't find it because you aren't looking for it. This is because you have blurred the biblical prophecies about the Church and Israel, making Israel the Church....reason for this: you don't rightly divide the Word.
Paul says:
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;.
"That DAY" is the Day of Christ, or the Day of the Lord, which is the Tribulation period....a time of God's wrath and judgment. I know perfectly well what Paul says. You are twisting those verses to make them "fit" your unbiblical post-tribulation teaching. Paul was re-explaining to the church at Thessalonica that they had not entered into that day (the Day of the Lord) at that time.
Paul says at the end of chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians, in verse 18:
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
"What words" is the apostle Paul speaking of?
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Why "comfort" those believers if they were going to go through a 7 year tribulation? They were already going through great persecution. Paul was encouraging them, not trying to frighten them. The rapture of the Church is imminent...it can happen at any time....even within the next few minutes. The post tribulation rapture (a non-event, IMO), destroys the imminent return of Christ FOR His Church IN THE AIR. This is the first phase of the Second Coming of Christ.
A post-tribulation rapture is a NON-EVENT! According to Revelation 13, the antichrist will wage war with the "saints" (and you post tribbers believe these "saints" are the Church) and overcome them. IOW, they will all be DEAD. So who is left to "rapture" after the Great Tribulation?
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Define the Tribulation Era Saints? Are they the Body of Christ/the Church? The 144,000 Israelites? Who are they? The reason why none of what you are trying to explain makes any sense to me, or to anyone else who holds to a biblical pre-tribulation rapture of the Church, is because Paul never wrote to Tribulation era saints (whoever they are) ...he only wrote to the Church age saints. In all his epistles, Paul was correcting some error in that particular church...i.e. Grace vs Law in Galatians. Born again Christians are members of the Body of Christ and Paul never warned them that they would go through the Day of the Lord, but rather he encouraged and comforted them that they would not go through that "day" (period of tribulation):
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
As for the correct "sequence of events"...those only pertain to Church age believers (not Tribulation era saints).
Resurrection and rapture of Church age saints/believers. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15: 51-58) is Paul's message of comfort, encouragement, and exhortation to the Church age saints/believers!
In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul goes into detail about the revelation of the antichrist....this was to encourage them in the fact that they had not already entered into the Day of the Lord and exhort them to live godly lives and not be lazy (2 Thess. 3:1-18)
The book of Revelation from chapter 4-19 is directed to the nation of Israel and the Christ rejecting world that was left behind when the Church was raptured....which includes Revelation 7. Israel is the focal point and that "great multitude" are those Gentiles who will be converted through the ministry of the 144,000 Jews.
About 25 years ago, someone tried to persuade me about the exact same thing you are teaching now. He didn't convince me then and you aren't convincing me now. I have been saved for 40 years and have read the Bible through many times and have studied prophecy for at least 35 years. I have learned this: "Things that are different are not the same". There is a distinct difference between the nation of Israel and the Church....they are not the same. Therefore, I'm not too concerned with your "concern" because what I believe and have believed for almost 40 years IS taught in the Bible....rightly divided!
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
This will end my discussion with you about the "non-event" post tribulation rapture.
Maranatha!