Why do you believe the law is not binding on Christians?

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Kerry

Guest
You give 100% of your life to God and then you tithe 10% of your income.

You worship God every day and then you worship God on the Sabbath together with other believers.

The depth of the New Covenant does not take away the shallows of the letter of the law. The letter of the Law kills when it is relied upon for justification because works can never justify a man. But He who has been justified walks in obedience to His Savior. His faith has room for the Law as a guide for his behavior. Rev. 14:12.
That is works, our faith is not placed in what we do. What we do is a result of our faith in the cross, never ever judge anyone by what they do. It is the cross that redeems us and nothing else.
 
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gamlet

Guest
I know that, but show me which law and which commandments. I can agree with my voice because that's all He had. What Sabbath did he keep? when did offer a lamb on the brazen altar in front of the tabernacle? When did God tell Him thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not covet your neighbors wife. I haven't found it.
You are staring right at the proof you are asking for: Genesis 26:5. What are God's commandments? What does the Bible identify as God's commandments? All you have to do is answer the question yourself: What did God say were "My" laws.
 
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gamlet

Guest
I don't see that what the New Testament believer is under is the same as with the Old Testament saints.

Matt. 26, Mark 14, Luke 22 and 1 Corintians 11, quoting the Lord Jesus, speak of the New Testament.

Hebrews 7 says the law was changed. A better hope is what now brings us near.
The Laws that were changed in Hebrews 7 were those having to do with the Sanctuary services. This was the Ceremonial Law. This was fulfilled by Christ because by nature they were foreshadows of Him. The Moral Law (Ten Commandments) were not foreshadows and were not changed.

Please specify the verses in the chapters you quoted so that I can reply to them properly.
 
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gamlet

Guest
...but verse 19 says: 'For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by which we draw night unto God.'

Chapter 11 makes it clear that faith (not law-keeping) is the operative principle for the justified.
That is true but the law that has been replaced is the Ceremonial Law which was really meant to be replaced from the very beginning because they were foreshadows of Christ's ministration.
 
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phil112

Guest
That is true but the law that has been replaced is the Ceremonial Law which was really meant to be replaced from the very beginning because they were foreshadows of Christ's ministration.
Not true. The bible makes no differentiation between laws. That is a doctrine of man. The law is only for the lawless. It has no place in a christians life. If you need the law you aren't saved.
 
Feb 21, 2014
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That is true but the law that has been replaced is the Ceremonial Law which was really meant to be replaced from the very beginning because they were foreshadows of Christ's ministration.
So, back to Sinai, circumcision, law-keeping? I feel I am under grace, by God's grace.
 
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gamlet

Guest
...but verse 19 says: 'For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by which we draw night unto God.'

Chapter 11 makes it clear that faith (not law-keeping) is the operative principle for the justified.
James shows that a component of this faith that justifies is works (2:10) which indicates obedience to the law.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
James shows that a component of this faith that justifies is works (2:10) which indicates obedience to the law.
wrong what justifies is the Cross are you that self righteous?
 
Jun 2, 2014
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Christianity does away with the 613 commandments of the old testament.

Where it says why other than "jesus saves"(or some variant) I do not know.

Been asking myself the same thing:


"Why does god make all these laws, which if you break one it is a sin, and christians do not teach this to their children now?"

Probably has a lot to do with the vague teachings of Jesus and the Old Testament and the decline of education, I dunno.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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"The Law is for those who are not led by the Spirit." The Law was given to Israel after they had been saved from slavery in Egypt. This tells us that God also gave the Law to Christians who have been saved by grace. Many Christians fail to make a distinction between the Moral Law which is binding to the present and the Ceremonial Law which was fulfilled by Christ since they were foreshadows of Him given as part of the Sanctuary services.
Ceremonial Law: Circumcision, Sabbath, Feasts, etc.

If that is what you mean, then I might be inclined to agree (though not in the letter), but I don't think that is what you mean. I think you are attaching ceremonial laws, like circumcision and keeping the Sabbath, to the moral law.

But even the Moral Law, as you call it, is followed by being led by the Spirit, and not through the letter. If I, being led by the Spirit, do the things that are under the Law, that does not place me under the Law. But it does establish the Law in the non-believer, so that they can be led to Jesus and thru Jesus, is given the Holy Spirit, who, in turn, releases them from the Law so that they to can live out the will of God, though they have been released from the Law. The Law kills, but the Spirit gives life. God sent Jesus to release us from the Law of Moses, because the Law of Moses gives power to sin. And the sting of death is sin.

1 Corinthians 15:50-57
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. [SUP]53 [/SUP]For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. [SUP]54[/SUP]But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. [SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” [SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; [SUP]57 [/SUP]but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:1-14
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [SUP]2 [/SUP]May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [SUP]7 [/SUP]for he who has died is freed from sin.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, [SUP]9 [/SUP]knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

How do you explain John's comments? Did he go crazy? Is he wrong? No, we commit acts that are wrong as long as we are in the flesh - We are not perfected in the flesh; And that is why John says that if we say we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves. But then he turns around and says that we cannot sin. This is because, if we are led by the Spirit, then there is no violation. We are fellow heirs, with/in/through Jesus Christ. We are made perfect through Jesus, putting Him on, so that God sees Jesus and not our short comings. Yes, we live our lives in subjection to Jesus, but we are not under the Law of Moses.

The Sabbath was given to Israel as a sign of the Covenant.
Exodus 31:12-17
[SUP]12 [/SUP]The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, [SUP]13 [/SUP]“But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. [SUP]16 [/SUP]So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.[SUP]17 [/SUP]It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”

And I do assume that you will highlight the forever part, so I will quote you a verse and you tell me what it means:
(Deut. 15:16-17)[SUP]16 [/SUP]It shall come about if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from you,’ because he loves you and your household, since he fares well with you; [SUP]17 [/SUP]then you shall take an awl and pierce it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever.

Do you believe that this was an earthly contract for slavery that lasts for eternity - One fleshly man owning another?
 
Jun 2, 2014
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Isn't the real reason people don't follow the 613 commandments the fact that 90+% of the converts to Christianity were not jewish, therefore did not understand nor want to follow them?

The whole "born again"(and other variants) is a nice try, but it does not say "disregard every commandment I sent to you over a thousand years".
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Romans 10:4 says: Christ ended the law so that everyone that believes in him is made right with God.
Would someone give me a nickel for every time this verse is misquoted?

Romans 10:4 says no such thing. Here is what it says...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The word for "end" here is...

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

It means outcome or point aimed at. This word, G5056 τέλος, is used other places in the N.T., let's look at them...

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Yep, G5056 τέλος is the word used here for end. So, is your faith obliterated? Done away with? Brought to an end? or is it brought to an outcome of salvation?

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Same word, G5056 τέλος, for end here. Is this the obliteration of the Lord? The doing away with Him? The use of the word is determined by context. Let's see how a few other translations render it...

New International Version:
Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

International Standard Version:
For the Messiah is the culmination of the Law as far as righteousness is concerned for everyone who believes

Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
For The Messiah is the consummation of The Written Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The sense of it is the end result, not the obliteration.

That does not say that we are free to violate the letter of the law but that we are not under the condemnation of the law to obey it.(Rom 6:14,15).
Why do you say it is condemnation to obey? The implication is that we justified by disobeying the Law. Care to show me a scripture for that? Here is one to chew on...

Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

I wish I had a nickel for every time someone has misused Rom 10:4
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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seabass



Yep, but those Christ died for do obey the Law, through Christ who obeyed it for them, so it is written Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That word Righteous Dikaios :

1.righteous, observing divine laws

1.in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

Its a Gift to them through Jesus Christ !
So Christ vicariously kept the Law for those whom He died for? Alleviating the nedd to keep the Law? This all sounds really spiritual until you bring it into the real world...

Let's single out just one Command...

Exo 20:15 "You shall not steal.

Jesus Christ kept this Commandment perfectly. That is fact. Now since He did, do converted Christians have to keep this Commandment? Or because Christ kept it they are free from obeying it? They are free to steal everything around them that is not nailed down? Or is the Commandment still in effect? Is it still a sin to steal?

That is a very simple answer that can be answered yes or no, is it a sin to steal?
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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it must have failed for you. Your still trying to get right with God by it.

you evidently have not been killed by it yet (or better yet you do not think you have) thats why your still trying to follow it.
So, you know my attitudes and motives? I have posted hundreds of times that 100 lifetimes of 100 years each of perfectly keeping the Law cannot earn salvation, it is the free gift of God that comes by grace. That does not alleviate the need to obey God.

Since we are saved by grace, you keep telling me that the Law is no longer in force. Interesting thought, but I am absolutely certain that having other gods, bowing down to wood and stone, blapheming God's name, breaking His Sabbath, dishonoring parents, murder, adultery, stealing, lying and lusting are still sins and the breaking of these Laws incurs the death penalty.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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That is works, our faith is not placed in what we do. What we do is a result of our faith in the cross, never ever judge anyone by what they do. It is the cross that redeems us and nothing else.
And this sounds really spiritual and evangelical until one shines the light of scripture on it...


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

Judgment is according to our works.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Not true. The bible makes no differentiation between laws. That is a doctrine of man. The law is only for the lawless. It has no place in a christians life. If you need the law you aren't saved.
Well then, I guess Paul is lost...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

My friend, you make a lot of bold statements, some of which are direct contradiction to scripture. The above is a perfect example.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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So, you know my attitudes and motives? I have posted hundreds of times that 100 lifetimes of 100 years each of perfectly keeping the Law cannot earn salvation, it is the free gift of God that comes by grace. That does not alleviate the need to obey God..
We, I believe, are in agreement up to this point. But in regard to what God expects from us, that is where we start to have different opinions. I do not have a problem with gathering on Saturday. But I do think it would probably be good if we met daily, as we see the first century church doing.

There are verses that tell us that the Apostles went to the Synagogues on the Sabbath, but in my opinion they went there on Saturday because that is when and where the Jews were gathered (in the name of God, though without knowledge/acceptance of Jesus) so that they could teach them. I could be wrong about that - I've been human all my life:). I don't see a command to meet on any particular (single) day in a week. Many in the congregation that I attend believe that we are commanded to meet on Sunday, but they are wrong. If the verse that says, "On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight" is a command to meet on Sunday, then so are the verses that say, "[SUP]42 [/SUP]They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. [SUP]44 [/SUP]And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; [SUP]45 [/SUP]and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. [SUP]46 [/SUP]Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, [SUP]47 [/SUP]praising God and having favor with all the people.

And maybe they are commands, but if they are then we should meet daily, in one another's houses, breaking bread (daily communion), and eating meals together with gladness. It actually sounds pretty nice, but then I start thinking of it in our current "reality" and it starts to seem like it would be hard - when do we make time for this; How; Is it going to cost a lot of money; do I really want to see "_______ (that guy - the one who annoys me). But these follow up thoughts are fleshly, I believe, and probably should be done away with. I should try to get the "junk" out of my life that makes "daily gathering" seem like a burden.

Either way, I do not see a command for continued Sabbath keeping or an establishment of Sunday for the new day of worship. But a daily service -> life-long commitment to God. And I truly believe that if I can ever take that leap (and if we are gathering, I suppose that God will have to get others to take that step) that we will see how light the burden is.


Since we are saved by grace, you keep telling me that the Law is no longer in force. Interesting thought, but I am absolutely certain that having other gods, bowing down to wood and stone, blapheming God's name, breaking His Sabbath, dishonoring parents, murder, adultery, stealing, lying and lusting are still sins and the breaking of these Laws incurs the death penalty.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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The Jews thought that Jesus violated the Sabbath because by that time they had made the keeping of the Sabbath very grievous by the various traditions that they had added to the commandment. As the Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus came to show us a model for the proper observance of the Sabbath. This includes the doing of good works--healing, etc.

As a Christian, I believe that the Moral Law (the Sabbath is included here) remains as a guide for behavior, although the Ceremonial Law has been fulfilled by Christ because they were meant to be foreshadows of His ministration.
'This includes the doing of good works--healing, etc.'
yes, let's go with this part...
we can do good works on the sabbath... and the other days too... whatever we do in word or deed, let us do it all in the name of the Lord... those would be good works... we can do those every day...
maybe you could tell me more about what you mean by 'keeping the sabbath'...
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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'This includes the doing of good works--healing, etc.'
yes, let's go with this part...
we can do good works on the sabbath... and the other days too... whatever we do in word or deed, let us do it all in the name of the Lord... those would be good works... we can do those every day...
maybe you could tell me more about what you mean by 'keeping the sabbath'...
1.) Keep the day holy. It is not a day for profane, mindless entertainment...

Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

2.) We do not work on the Sabbath. We have six days to earn a living, mow grass, paint the house etc., the seventh day belongs to God...

Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

3.) Remember and honor the God of creation...

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

4.) We attend church...

Lev 23:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
Lev 23:3 'Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Heb 10:25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Psa 92:1 A Psalm. A Song for the Sabbath Day. It is good to give thanks to the LORD, And to sing praises to Your name, O Most High;

5.) A day that gives us extra tiem for study and prayer...

Isa 58:13 "If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,
Isa 58:14 Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the LORD has spoken."

6.) A day to visit the elderly, shutins and the sick...

Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him and said, "Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it?
Luk 13:16 So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?"

7.) The Sabbath is a Feast day, we have a special meal. Perhaps special deserts, a nice meal, not a fast food heart attack on a plate...

Lev 23:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.