It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[SeaBass]

Good morning Seabass. If you want others to consider your arguments from scripture, why don't you quote your verses?

Now what is your proof that "man's faithfulness to God" is a side of salvation? Are you saying that in salvation God makes a man a robot and forces his faithfulness?

I put it to you that two sides of salvation are
1) Man's unfaithfulness to God, and
2) God's grace to man, sinful man to whom He owes no "faithfulness."

You can add a 3rd side, how

3) God is faithful to the man who trusts the Lord Jesus as Savior.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

There is no verse that says God will remain faithful to those that become unfaithful to Him.

In Jn 10:27 Jesus qualified "MY" sheep as those that have a sustained hearing and following. So those that are faithful in their hearing and following qualify as Christ sheep and God is faithful to them by not allowing them to be snatched out of His hand. One that quits, become unfaithful in his hearing and following no longer qualifies as one of "MY" sheep removing himself from God's hand.


Phil 1:5 those Philippian Christians had been faithful by remaining in the gospel from the "first day until now". God would remain faithful to them by continuing that good work in them.

 

[homwardbound]

Abraham screwed up and so did David

Amen, so they needed God. think for just one second if one can be perfect in and of themselves, would their be a need fore God?
And if one thinks they are righteous, the are they in competition with God to be God, for if I think me to be righteous, then I exalt me above God.
I think there is someone like that Lucifer? and now today many that are still born of their flesh nature in selfishness to the self, masquerading as Ted Bundy did,
I bet he claimed salvation, and was not saved, shown by the fruits he did, that finally were revealed
So if anyone here reading this and this is you, Please come down off of the high Mountain you are exalting yourself on, before you have to fall, and be crushed in your flesh, so that you might be saved in Spirt and truth and stop your deceptions. if this is you, you are not OSAS, but can be in Spirit and truth
Even if one has to be delivered to Satan to be crushed, So be it, to me and all

 

[homwardbound]

Please cite the verses where Abraham rebelled against God.

As for David: The difference between him and most of the kings of Israel was that he repented later on and decided to do better next time.

Saul screwed up
Held a grudge against David and destroyed a priestly city.

David screwed up
Accepted the consequences of his actions; God would kill off his first-born/He must choose between 3 different punishments for Israel.

The differences in conduct between Saul and David highlights the reasons why God decided to wipe out Saul's bloodline and the reasons why God bound himself by oath to have David and his descendants shine as a lamp throughout time.

(Christ, the king of Heaven and Earth, is David's descendant; ah, David is surely blessed!)


[HR][/HR]
God rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked.

God sends to Heaven the righteous and sends to Hell the wicked.

We make ourselves either righteous or wicked by our deeds, our good works and bad works. Our conduct.

AKA our physical actions, which reveal if we are righteous or wicked, send us to Hell.



Both Abraham and David expressed their faith via both physical and vocal actions.

If one continues to be wicked, hiding behind closed doors, that one as many are to be delivered to Satan to have their flesh crushed and turn to God for salvation. And it is not God who causes this to happen, it is nothing more that our selfish selves, that cause this, praying no one has to go through it as a many a men have had to.
By Faith one is saved, and by Faith one does the works God calls that one to do
I know everyone in their own Hearts know this is truth, so it is your decision, between God and you.
thank you Lord

 

[homwardbound]

Those who reject Eternal Security, are foolishly attacking the Power of God ! 1 Pet 1:5

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

From such ones turn away 2 Tim 3:5

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

So can I then interpret this what you say here as wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! okay then, no big deal, I can go out and harm my neighbor, since I am saved?
NOT
There is a response involved, is there not? So the response is key, you think?
So either one believes and is or becomes a doer, and is past on from a hearer only, truth or error here?

 

[Atwood]

Originally Posted by Atwood

Ye Olde Present Tense Canard, The PTC:

It has been claimed that the use of the present tense in Bible verses (which appear to assert security), destroys eternal security, as if the present tense were the only tense used in such contexts. On such a PTC perversion of God's promise, when scripture says "that whosoeverbelieves in Him should not perish," it may be claimed that the meaning is that whosoevercontinually believes and does not stop believing" does not perish, but if a Christian should slip up and stop believing some day, he is out of luck.

So if the Bible reports in some story: Joe eats pork chops, that would mean, Joe eats pork chops continually and never stops! So when James says "In many things we all stumble," the meaning would be that the Christian stumbles continually and never stops stumbling. This is perversion of the present tense.

But the Present Tense Canarder need give heed to the following in John 5:1 " "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loves him that begat loves [present tense] [him also that is begotten of him."

On the PTC then, John 5:1 implies eternal security; for it would mean that the Christian not only loves God and other Christians, but continually loves God and other Christians without stopping! Surely only a saved person does that.

On the "present tense canard," this verse would mean that the Christian continually loves and never stops loving; thus how could the Christian be lost?

One way to translate the present tense is with progressive, on-going action, if the context permits it. "Joe eats" would then be "Joe is eating." But the present tense does not imply "without stopping." The present tense in this example does not mean "Joe continually eats and never stops." Actually in the appropriate context, the present tense can mean an action going on "is eating." But the idea of whether or not or how soon it stops is not implied by the present tense. "in many things we all stumble" cannot mean that Christians continually sin without stopping, nor even "continually sin.

When the NT says, "believes," it can be translated "is believing."
For the assurance which follows applies to the a Christian in his present time. If at that present time he is believing, he is promised (stretching into the future forever) that he will not perish. Thus if you are right now believing, trusting in Christ (an action indeed going on), you have assurance of eternal life as a consequence.

But to further clench the conclusion, it should be noted that sometimes in an eternal security verse the present tense is not used.

as Philippians 1:6b states:

"He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "

"He who began [past tense] a good work in you will [future tense] bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "

The beginning began at a point in time. Christians don't ooze into being Christians. Their beginning is called a new birth (John 3) when they are begotten by God. A birth, by its very nature, occurs at a point in time. The new birth is a birth to a new life which is eternal, eternal life; i.e., regeneration, as in John 3:16 to everlasting life.

2 Cor 5:17 "Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new."

John 5:1, 4,18 calls the Christian "begotten of God,"
5:1 "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loves him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him."

As noted above, on the "present tense canard" this verse would mean that the Christian continually loves and never stops loving; thus how could the Christian be lost? If love is the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5), then how could this man in whose being the Spirit continually brings forth love (without stopping) ever become unsaved?

But when the present tense is used for on-going action, the present tense itself does not indicate "without stopping" nor any particular continuation time.

To ignore the present tense then implies one can quit believing and still be saved.

Charles Stanley, [who is irrelevant] who says one can lose his faith and still be saved, tried the "Joe continually eating the pork chop" except Stanley used continually drinking water from a well: . . .


Phil 1:5,6 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Those Philippians had become Christians in the past, therefore God had begun, in the past, a good work in them and will in thr future perform that good work. What the passage does not say is that God, in the past, began that good work UNCONDITIONALLY or that God will, in the future, continue that good work UNCONDITIONALLY.

Yes, the text says "will perform it" with no conditions added; the implied condition is that He began it (which cannot be undone). One does not begin a work conditionally; you begin it or you don't. The beginning is not a matter of condition. The condition question comes in the continuation; and that is affirmed here.

Because the present tense may be used where action is continuing does not prove it always means that; nor does the fact of continuing action imply how long. If a man is sinning (in many things we all stumble -- present tense, it does not imply that we Christians sin continually and certainly not "continually without stopping." When the present tense is used for a process in action, that says nothing about how long it lasts; and often "continuous" is a distortion of its meaning.

But there is no evidence that Christians ever stop trusting Christ to get them to Heaven, neither is it reasonable that once just for believing, a new nature has been given to Christians (they have been begotten by God in the past) to suppose that they could be unborn and lose that nature. Scripture never has any such hint. Instead it declares that the believer has eternal life.


sometimes in an eternal security verse the present tense is not used, but the past tense:

as Philippians 1:6b states:

"He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "

"He who began [past tense] a good work in you will[future tense] bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "
----------------------

that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one soul striving for the faith of the gospel; and in nothing affrighted by the adversaries: which is for them an evident token of perdition, but of your salvation, and that from God; because to you it has been granted [past time] in the behalf of Christ, not only
to believe [present tense!] on him,
but also to suffer in his behalf:
< Philip 1

If present tense means to continue without stopping, then it has been granted [gift of God] to Christians to believe continually without stopping!

 

[homwardbound]

That spirit placed in us is not ours its God's and we must be led by that spirit...there are disobedient children you know...

• Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
  Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

But nicely put piece...

So then each of us work out our own salvation in fear and trembling, as i see many here are, and so praying one sees the next verse and it sinks in
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fearandtrembling.

the next verse is where God is leading you to, praying we are listening with the Spiritual ears not the flesh ones that create war

 

[homwardbound]

we will never find out which one is the right answer. Just love the lord and follow him.

Those that continue in the Faith, will be brought up into maturity, and leave the carnal behind, 1 Cor 3. well read all of Corinthians and ask Gd for the meaning if one wants to know the truth, without any wrong motive, just to know God, for no other reason and God knows who these are.
Then God will reveal the truth that sets us free, you think?
Never give up, it is a battle to come to the full knowledge, actually wisdom of This amazing miraculous God that has got Mercy for you to have and appreciate, thus give it out to all, to receive it as well or not. That depends on God, and this depends on ones motive to know God. And is why God will
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 15:9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So maybe we all need to plead for this mercy?

 

[Atwood]

So then each of us work out our own salvation in fear and trembling, as i see many here are, and so praying one sees the next verse and it sinks in
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fearandtrembling.

the next verse is where God is leading you to, praying we are listening with the Spiritual ears not the flesh ones that create war

It is always good to consider scripture. And indeed, it is not well to be contentious when we must earnestly contend for the faith. War cannot be avoided, however; we wrestle, we struggle; but we need remember (as you seem to) that the struggle is not really vs men (flesh and blood) but against principalities and powers.

The enemy does not want men to trust the Savior. Once they do that, he is out of luck; they have eternal life, and nothing can be done to stop it. Indeed, the enemy can find himself actually contributing to their salvation. So, let us swing and slice with the Sword of the Word of God, aiming at the principalities and powers. And thank you for calling that to my mind.

 

[homwardbound]

Total nonsense Atwood. Must we hear this same response from all of you ES guys? That's hardly a defense of your position, by the way.

God's salvation does not need to defended, God calls and one either listens and does not ignore God or he does as that rich man did in Luke 16. he went to hell, because he ignored the call from God about Lazarus. And even in hell this rich man still did not repent, yet was in torment deserving as we all are deserving, well at least me and Paul, peter, John, and all people as from what I see are in need of the new life, provided today by the resurrected Christ, not the dead Christ alone
So if we do see this new life in Spirit and truth through death to ourselves, you think we might walk as he walked without any pride in it?

 

[Atwood]

There is no verse that says God will remain faithful to those that become unfaithful to Him.

Prove it Seabass.

When Peter was denying the Lord Jesus, are you saying the Lord Jesus was not faithful to Peter? Did not the Lord Jesus know that Peter would deny Him and despite that, pray that Peter's faith would not fail? And was not the Lord's prayer efficacious?

In Jn 10:27 Jesus qualified "MY" sheep as those that have a sustained hearing and following.

Where is any qualifier, Seabass? The Lord Jesus makes an assertion about His sheep that they do hear Him and follow Him. If they are sheep, they hear and follow.

So those that are faithful in their hearing and following qualify

Wrong. The sheep are identified by hearing and following; hearing & following does not make them sheep.

[/quote]as Christ sheep and God is faithful to them by not allowing them to be snatched out of His hand. One that quits, become unfaithful in his hearing and following no longer qualifies as one of "MY" sheep removing himself from God's hand.[/quote]

The text says not such thing, it says that of the sheep: "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish!" It is a gift given to sheep.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

Phil 1:5 those Philippian Christians had been faithful by remaining in the gospel from the "first day until now". God would remain faithful to them by continuing that good work in them.

Stop making things up Seabass. The condition of God continuing the work to completion is that He began it, nothing else.

He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion.

Dear Seabass, turn away from the lies of the enemy. Eternal life is yours if only you will trust the Savior completely with your destiny. Take the knee now. Do your vocal cords work? For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved!

 

[homwardbound]

In other words, anyone who disagrees with me is a heretic.

Actually tha tis between God and that one that does not beleive in Eternal security is from God. I know i can never be Eternally secure form my viewpoint, being in unredeemed flesh at this point her ein this world.

So i turn to God to teach me irreversible truth, which if one is serious in this, and if one stands through all the travails on this earth and does not curse God will be saved period, like Job, never cursed God did he? Sinned oh yeah, but never cursed God. his wife angry told him to just curse God and die. And he rebuked her, as I am rebuking all those that take God's grace for granted and use God for their self gain. God knows who these are and are not, I rest now, trusting God to carry on the work God started in the ones that do beleive, not the ones that just say they do and know in their own heart they do not
Be delivered unto Satan as Paul said, to the ones that creep in to cause disruption, to lie, cheat and steal
Those I rebuke along with my original flesh nature I was born in
Thank you Lord

 

[homwardbound]

As a christian. A true lover of Jesus Christ. A man who truly trusts Jesus for my salvation. I read the bible and see where we are warned over and over again about the real dangers in the world. Not just physically but spiritually. Not just for non believers but believers.

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the revelation of never being able to be saved of self, unless one becomes a torso, you think?
So the way the truth and the new life is in Christ alone, thank you

 

[homwardbound]

That phrase is the classic definition of a believer in the NT. It lists all the preliminary acts of entrance. Baptism, Eucharist, indwelling of the Holy Spirit and recieved the gifts of the Spirit.

As we already know in this thread there are many redefinitions that must be made in order to make OSAS seem plausible.

From the view I see, OSAS is secure to me, why? Because I do as asked here in this life by Trust and Faith. The if told to walk by that man in need on the roadside, i do exactly that.
And where as you would say if you saw that, say I am not saved, from your view.

So when Jesus pointed out to the disciples about how the man put in the usuary twenty pence and the woman put in two pence. He asked them who put in more.
From their fleshly view they said the man put in more did they not, and so you decide which view is yours the outside of the cup or the inside
There is so much more to this world Horatio, than what just meets the physical eye, you think?

 

[SeaBass]

Seabass, are you aware that the above is just you saying things; not one verse of Bible proof at all. Such an argument is futile.

The POV of eternal security is that men who are saved are in fact saved. They need "foot-washing", but in essence they are saved. They do not persist in gross sin. If they start to, they will be chastened, delivered to satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved, as in 1 Cor 6.

In John 13 we read about the Last Supper:

Then he poureth water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. So he cometh to Simon Peter. He saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt understand hereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is bathed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit:"

The Bible guarantees chastening by the Father to the child of God. But what Father would burn his son alive forever?

"If ES were true, you would . . . ."
Now dear Seabass, you can worry about this and worry about how that fits with eternal security; but eternal security is a blessed fact to the believer, regardless of how you correlate other subjects with it.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish,

Dear Seabass, can you not just let go and trust the Savior with your eternal destiny?

No guarantee one endures God's chastening, Heb 12:7.

 

[homwardbound]

I choose to cast my eyes away from partially clad women. To not watch things that bring the old carnal feelings. I turn away and trust Jesus to deliver me from evil in the time of my temptation. It is a slippery slope. If I watch the wrong thing too long, spend to much time with the world and less time with my God. Things can get very bad.. It wouldn't be God who did that. It would be me.

I like that and I bet, ( not to be focused on) you probably by this trust sin at lot less if at all anymore
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

So yes that is wise, Brother not for to be proud in either, rather in deeper humility than ever before
Thank you, knowing this:
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Thank you

 

[homwardbound]

Yes, but the real danger is that we may fail to love the Lord our God with all our heart and our neighbor as ourself. We may get caught up on legalistic obsessive tiddlywinks and forget that if we love neighbor as self we fulfill the entire law.

And Atwood, I, you or anyone else can do this truth in love not in truth until we first see:

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

now just maybe us all, seek the depth of this love from God, given to us by Christ and do you think we might love all? in Spirit and truth?

 

[homwardbound]

Online courtesy, using Bold caps is the same as cursing it signifies anger

What a shame, when it is not always meant that way. but Edicate of this world, is what it is,

so if use bold caps, maybe say thoise bold caps are not in anger or from anger, to communicate properly, thanks Kerry
When many times Bold caps are meant to stand out for another to see and maybe hear what the Spirit says.

Is that like Bold Red letters, Jesus is yelling or pointing out what is being said in truth and love with mercy iced all over it?

 

[homwardbound]

It is amazing how much damage one isolated verse of scripture wrongly used of can do....

Amazing and is all accomplished through Faith

[SUP]12 [/SUP]so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Just pointing out how it is done, as from where I am viewing this today and am thankful in praises and Spiritual worship to Father through Son, Christ, Wow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is what I see from the spectator stands wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you Jesus, Thank you

 

[homwardbound]

show me the verse that says we are saved by faith alone.

Ask God for the Spiritual ears to hear and eyes to see, and quit being like a man, that can't be perfect in his unredeemed flesh
Only God will reveal this to you, and so far has not, I am sorry about this, yet i trust God in this to answer and show you or not, why?
Because God knows your motives? Praying you come to rest in the midst of all your stress, that you have, you are really wanting to just know Father only. and Father will show you the rest he has fro you in due time as we all have need to learn each day

 

[homwardbound]

You think Christ had not the power to forgive sin then? Do you really know Christ? Will he ask you that which is not possible? Do you read scripture in faith? Do you really trust God?...
1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Let go of your doctrine of man and see the light of Christ ...


Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Okay then, anyone can believe as they wish, yet Christ came to free us not to live like refugees you think
thanks for your view, it is appreciated, and i trust God to straighten us out in wherever either of us is wrong, you think?