who is trying to earn salvation? I (and I believe all of my brethren) are simply trying to be molded by Jesus. We are open to correction and reproof and we know that we must continue to do so. If we decide to no longer accept correction or reproof, if we cease to let Jesus have His way in us, if we cease fighting the good fight, than we aren't living a christian life. We will be known by what tree we are by our fruits.
It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
- Thread starter Atwood
- Start date
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Greetings Dead,
Do you mind my asking you if you are grateful?
Now as to doing good works, producing fruit,
there is a big difference between the cause of the tree and the results of the tree. (Cause, someone put seed in the ground and fertilized it; effect: fruit.)
The cause of good works is faith in the Lord Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are his workmanship created . . . for good works.
Works do not bring salvation; faith does that (on man's end).
Works come from salvation, the effect.
Cause & effect are different.
Perhaps you already know that.
Do you mind my asking you if you are grateful?
Now as to doing good works, producing fruit,
there is a big difference between the cause of the tree and the results of the tree. (Cause, someone put seed in the ground and fertilized it; effect: fruit.)
The cause of good works is faith in the Lord Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are his workmanship created . . . for good works.
Works do not bring salvation; faith does that (on man's end).
Works come from salvation, the effect.
Cause & effect are different.
Perhaps you already know that.
Originally Posted by Atwood
Yes Cassian, no one should need Bible proof, for Cassian hath spoken! Just accept your pontifications because you said it. Let's contrastyour "I-said-it's" with the Word of God.
History shows 500 years of the chaos, confusion and division
of the use of the principle of sola scriptura.
Note how Cassian does not respond to the challenge to bring forth anything outside the Bible and prove that it is the Word of God, anything that is readily available to men-in-general now on earth. But he seems to prefer "Sola Cassiana."
To think that scripture could have so many differing opinions, which is what they are, would be quite preposurous.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
It has done nothing for you.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You are a modern man.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
that which the Holy Spirit has preserved within His Body.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You have minimized it, denounced it,
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I don't need to prove anything.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The Gospel of Christ has been available for 2000 years, unchanged. Man either accepts it as given, or rejects it.
Cassian rejects:
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
ES is only viable within
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
the Satisfaction theory of Atonement, as developed by Anselm.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I believe God's words also, but I also hold to the meaning of them that was given from the beginning.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Nice text
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
For all the security you preach, you have no security at all because you might end up being one of those who were decieved and was only a professor, not a confessor.
I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which He has committed to me against that day!
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
It is why you need to develop all of these scenerios to get around what scripture is actually teaching
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Indeed Dead, while salvation is a free gift, discipleship costs all. Present yourself a living sacrifice. Just don't dream that you get saved by works or that an unsaved man can make himself saved by doing Luke 9:23. If he tries it, either frustration or deluded self-righteousness will result
Yes Cassian, no one should need Bible proof, for Cassian hath spoken! Just accept your pontifications because you said it. Let's contrastyour "I-said-it's" with the Word of God.
History shows 500 years of the chaos, confusion and division
of the use of the principle of sola scriptura.
Note how Cassian does not respond to the challenge to bring forth anything outside the Bible and prove that it is the Word of God, anything that is readily available to men-in-general now on earth. But he seems to prefer "Sola Cassiana."
To think that scripture could have so many differing opinions, which is what they are, would be quite preposurous.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
It has done nothing for you.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You are a modern man.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
that which the Holy Spirit has preserved within His Body.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You have minimized it, denounced it,
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I don't need to prove anything.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The Gospel of Christ has been available for 2000 years, unchanged. Man either accepts it as given, or rejects it.
Cassian rejects:
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
ES is only viable within
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
the Satisfaction theory of Atonement, as developed by Anselm.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I believe God's words also, but I also hold to the meaning of them that was given from the beginning.
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Nice text
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
For all the security you preach, you have no security at all because you might end up being one of those who were decieved and was only a professor, not a confessor.
I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which He has committed to me against that day!
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
It is why you need to develop all of these scenerios to get around what scripture is actually teaching
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Indeed Dead, while salvation is a free gift, discipleship costs all. Present yourself a living sacrifice. Just don't dream that you get saved by works or that an unsaved man can make himself saved by doing Luke 9:23. If he tries it, either frustration or deluded self-righteousness will result
I am VERY GRATEFUL!! words cannot express 
right, the fruits come from God, not from me.
I agree whole heartedly that works do not bring salvation. I think ALL of us know that. I don't think that is where we disagree. It is by grace through faith. I agree with all my heart.
But I have free will. If I stop trusting in the Lord. If I stop letting Him correct me, and mold me, it will be seen in the fruits that I produce because without Him they cannot be good. For without God my fruits are worthless. That's why we will know what kind of tree it is by the fruits. Be they of God or of ourselves.
right, the fruits come from God, not from me.
I agree whole heartedly that works do not bring salvation. I think ALL of us know that. I don't think that is where we disagree. It is by grace through faith. I agree with all my heart.
But I have free will. If I stop trusting in the Lord. If I stop letting Him correct me, and mold me, it will be seen in the fruits that I produce because without Him they cannot be good. For without God my fruits are worthless. That's why we will know what kind of tree it is by the fruits. Be they of God or of ourselves.
I am VERY GRATEFUL!! words cannot express
right, the fruits come from God, not from me.
I agree whole heartedly that works do not bring salvation. I think ALL of us know that. I don't think that is where we disagree. It is by grace through faith. I agree with all my heart.
But I have free will. If I stop trusting in the Lord. If I stop letting Him correct me, and mold me, it will be seen in the fruits that I produce because without Him they cannot be good. For without God my fruits are worthless. That's why we will know what kind of tree it is by the fruits. Be they of God or of ourselves.
right, the fruits come from God, not from me.
I agree whole heartedly that works do not bring salvation. I think ALL of us know that. I don't think that is where we disagree. It is by grace through faith. I agree with all my heart.
But I have free will. If I stop trusting in the Lord. If I stop letting Him correct me, and mold me, it will be seen in the fruits that I produce because without Him they cannot be good. For without God my fruits are worthless. That's why we will know what kind of tree it is by the fruits. Be they of God or of ourselves.
But Dead,
this whole idea of "free will" is interesting. Is it a question of free will vs robot? Or is it a scale of 0-10 on how much free will a man has? What does scripture actually say about free will? Does the Lord interfere with free will or help a man both to will and to do? Is it a vain thing to pray?: "Let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in your sight; O Lord, my strength and redeemer." Is that a vow to grit your teeth and control yourself, or is that seeking the Lord's help in these matters?
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord . . . He turns it withersoever He will.
Turn me and I shall be turned, Jeremiah says.
There are interesting verses where the Lord gets involved with men's will.
But on the doctrine of eternal security, it is best to focus on just what scripture says on that subject. With that nailed down, one may consider how this fits with "free will" or its lack.
The scripture for eternal security is abundant and clear. Trusting the Lord Jesus with our destiny is the important thing.
How exactly do you obey the gospel without works?How are we made partakers if we don't hold fast to the end?It is possible for one from the house of Christ to be hardened by sin. One can choose to depart from God. Your teaching is wrong, so says the scripture.
Heb 6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
We obey the gospel by having a change of mind from non-belief to believe; and if we trusted in works (self-righteousness), we change mind (repent) from trusting in our good works to trusting the Savior.
Nothing in my hand I bring;
Simply to thy cross I cling.
We obey the gospel: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
Wow; it sounds like you are being hardened in sin; particularly the sin of disbelief in the Savior. Do you have the evil heart of unbelief?
Eternal security means we will hold firm to the end so far as trusting Christ to save us is concerned.
Heb 6:9 explains that preceding apostasy verses, which concern professing Christians. The Rom 6 apostasy section begins with washings and the like which are OT practices (some of which are also NT). There is evidently an issue about Jewish persons in Jerusalem moving on from Judaism with a professed acceptance of Christ as Messiah to real trust in Christ with abandonment of Temple Worship and Old Testament behavior, moving on to distinct Church conduct.
The Word 6:9 says that the human writer is convinced of better things and things that characterize real salvation. The professed characteristics do not reach to the status of salvation. The apostates were not saved. So there is a certain type of professors (not possessors) who turn away and cannot be renewed. Judas fits this description, never saved, a man with a demon.
Don't be concerned about my teaching, except to confirm or negate it from scripture; be concerned about the Word of God. It is the Word of God which says that believers are eternally secure; they have eternal life, and they do not perish.
Since all who are are saved endure to the end, then enduring is an essential characteristic of the saved. To say the saved doesn't endure to the end would be an oxymoron. How can you be saved without being saved? If a man were saved, but went to the Lake of Fire, that is absurd. He wasn't saved then. He just had a chance to be saved if he was a good boy; but that is not what the Word teaches; it teaches real salvation, eternal life and never perish.
NewBirth, I indeed am having trouble figuring you out, just what you actually believe. Are you flip-flopping?
What you posted above leads me to think that you need to trust the Lord Jesus completely with your destiny as your only and sufficient Savior.
Nothing in my hand I bring;
Simply to thy cross I cling.
We obey the gospel: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
Wow; it sounds like you are being hardened in sin; particularly the sin of disbelief in the Savior. Do you have the evil heart of unbelief?
Eternal security means we will hold firm to the end so far as trusting Christ to save us is concerned.
Heb 6:9 explains that preceding apostasy verses, which concern professing Christians. The Rom 6 apostasy section begins with washings and the like which are OT practices (some of which are also NT). There is evidently an issue about Jewish persons in Jerusalem moving on from Judaism with a professed acceptance of Christ as Messiah to real trust in Christ with abandonment of Temple Worship and Old Testament behavior, moving on to distinct Church conduct.
The Word 6:9 says that the human writer is convinced of better things and things that characterize real salvation. The professed characteristics do not reach to the status of salvation. The apostates were not saved. So there is a certain type of professors (not possessors) who turn away and cannot be renewed. Judas fits this description, never saved, a man with a demon.
Don't be concerned about my teaching, except to confirm or negate it from scripture; be concerned about the Word of God. It is the Word of God which says that believers are eternally secure; they have eternal life, and they do not perish.
Since all who are are saved endure to the end, then enduring is an essential characteristic of the saved. To say the saved doesn't endure to the end would be an oxymoron. How can you be saved without being saved? If a man were saved, but went to the Lake of Fire, that is absurd. He wasn't saved then. He just had a chance to be saved if he was a good boy; but that is not what the Word teaches; it teaches real salvation, eternal life and never perish.
NewBirth, I indeed am having trouble figuring you out, just what you actually believe. Are you flip-flopping?
What you posted above leads me to think that you need to trust the Lord Jesus completely with your destiny as your only and sufficient Savior.
There is more than one kind of works, my friend.
One is of the flesh to attain righteousness, like that of Job, which is why I say he was not righteous.
While the other is of the spirit to justification, like Abraham did. Abraham was justified because of his faith. Job was not, because he based his righteousness on his own good works.
To deny works, is to deny the epistle of James.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Galatians 5:4
(BBE) You are cut off from Christ, you who would have righteousness by the law; you are turned away from grace.
(CEV) And if you try to please God by obeying the Law, you have cut yourself off from Christ and his wonderful kindness.
(DRB) You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.
(EMTV) You have become estranged from Christ, you who are justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
(ERV) If you try to be made right with God through the law, your life with Christ is finished--you have left God's grace.
(ESV) You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
(GNB) Those of you who try to be put right with God by obeying the Law have cut yourselves off from Christ. You are outside God's grace.
(GW) Those of you who try to earn God's approval by obeying his laws have been cut off from Christ. You have fallen out of God's favor.
(ISV) Those of you who are trying to be justified by the law have been cut off from Christ. You have fallen away from grace.
(KJV) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(KJV+) ChristG5547 is become of no effectG2673 unto you, whosoeverG3748 of you are justifiedG1344 byG1722 the law;G3551 ye are fallenG1601 from grace.G5485
(LITV) you whoever are justified by Law, you were severed from Christ; you fell from grace.
(MKJV) you who are justified by Law are deprived of all effect from Christ; you fell from grace.
(Murdock) Ye have renounced the Messiah, ye who seek justification by the law: and ye have apostatized from grace.
(RV) Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.
(Vulgate) evacuati estis a Christo qui in lege iustificamini a gratia excidistis
(Webster) Christ is become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by the law; ye have fallen from grace.
(WNT) Christ has become nothing to any of you who are seeking acceptance with God through the Law: you have fallen away from grace.
(YLT) ye were freed from the Christ, ye who in law are declared righteous; from the grace ye fell away;
What does it mean, if God's word says, 'you are cut off from Christ', and 'you have fallen from grace'?
(BBE) You are cut off from Christ, you who would have righteousness by the law; you are turned away from grace.
(CEV) And if you try to please God by obeying the Law, you have cut yourself off from Christ and his wonderful kindness.
(DRB) You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.
(EMTV) You have become estranged from Christ, you who are justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
(ERV) If you try to be made right with God through the law, your life with Christ is finished--you have left God's grace.
(ESV) You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
(GNB) Those of you who try to be put right with God by obeying the Law have cut yourselves off from Christ. You are outside God's grace.
(GW) Those of you who try to earn God's approval by obeying his laws have been cut off from Christ. You have fallen out of God's favor.
(ISV) Those of you who are trying to be justified by the law have been cut off from Christ. You have fallen away from grace.
(KJV) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(KJV+) ChristG5547 is become of no effectG2673 unto you, whosoeverG3748 of you are justifiedG1344 byG1722 the law;G3551 ye are fallenG1601 from grace.G5485
(LITV) you whoever are justified by Law, you were severed from Christ; you fell from grace.
(MKJV) you who are justified by Law are deprived of all effect from Christ; you fell from grace.
(Murdock) Ye have renounced the Messiah, ye who seek justification by the law: and ye have apostatized from grace.
(RV) Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.
(Vulgate) evacuati estis a Christo qui in lege iustificamini a gratia excidistis
(Webster) Christ is become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by the law; ye have fallen from grace.
(WNT) Christ has become nothing to any of you who are seeking acceptance with God through the Law: you have fallen away from grace.
(YLT) ye were freed from the Christ, ye who in law are declared righteous; from the grace ye fell away;
What does it mean, if God's word says, 'you are cut off from Christ', and 'you have fallen from grace'?
Hebrews Chapter 6
[SUP]4[/SUP] For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5[/SUP] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6[/SUP] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
Maybe I should repeat this one 100 times, in enlarged and colored letters.
[SUP]4[/SUP] For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5[/SUP] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6[/SUP] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
Maybe I should repeat this one 100 times, in enlarged and colored letters.
[h=3]2 Timothy Chapter 2[/h][SUP]11[/SUP] [It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:
[SUP]12[/SUP] If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
Shall I repost the question about my nephew?
[SUP]12[/SUP] If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
Shall I repost the question about my nephew?
John 6:
[h=3]Many Disciples Desert Jesus[/h][SUP]60 [/SUP]On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
[SUP]61 [/SUP]Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? [SUP]62 [/SUP]Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! [SUP]63 [/SUP]The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[SUP][e][/SUP] and life. [SUP]64 [/SUP]Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. [SUP]65 [/SUP]He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
[SUP]66 [/SUP]From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
[SUP]67 [/SUP]“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
[h=3]Many Disciples Desert Jesus[/h][SUP]60 [/SUP]On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
[SUP]61 [/SUP]Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? [SUP]62 [/SUP]Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! [SUP]63 [/SUP]The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[SUP][e][/SUP] and life. [SUP]64 [/SUP]Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. [SUP]65 [/SUP]He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
[SUP]66 [/SUP]From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
[SUP]67 [/SUP]“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
Ezekiel Chapter 18
[SUP]24[/SUP] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[SUP]25[/SUP] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[SUP]26[/SUP] When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
[SUP]24[/SUP] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[SUP]25[/SUP] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[SUP]26[/SUP] When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.