Trinity?

[faroukfarouk]

I might as well tell you to read your whole bible to find the truth. Give me your logical explanation with texts from the bible to explain your theory.

I am not looking to superimpose logical schemes onto the text of Scripture in order to find out what it may thus supposedly start to mean; first and foremost we deal with the fact that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are already revealed, and they act together in the work of redemption.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

Firstborn refers to the Lord Jesus's pre-eminence in Creation.

He, however, is 'the only begotten of the Father'; He is the Creator, not the created.

Both are Creators. The world was already there before Jesus split the waters and land and eventually created man. If Jesus was a God created by Himself, then why did God call Jesus His Son and why did He not instruct God then to come to this earth?

 

[TruthFromFrank]

The fact is that you cannot prove that I am incorrect with what I have written.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The fact is that you cannot prove that I am incorrect with what I have written.

Read the passages cited and others and you will see that the Persons have independent personalities, with a will, etc. They all work together.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

The idea of three separate Gods (supposedly) is not the usual teaching.

Scripture does indeed reveal Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

In the end what matters is how Scripture reveals God and the Divine Personalities.

I beg to differ. The three Gods creed is repeated every Sunday, the first day of the week, in most churches worldwide which makes it a very strong brainwashing procedure on a weekly basis, originated by the RCC.
I do agree that the Scripture reveals the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but it does not reveal that the Son is now a God. I agree He was God before He became man, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit on the earth was also not there until Jesus has been resurrected and went to sit on God's right hand side as the High Priest (as man). If there were three Gods, then surely then should be three thrones as well on the new earth. Why the discrepancy? I believe that Jesus received His omnipotency back when He took His place on the right hand side of God as the Scripture teaches us that Jesus is being taught by His Father and the Holy Spirit on the earth is being given the information from Jesus Christ. There is a definite ranking order. The Holy Spirit (Jesus in Spirit form) on this earth, Jesus said - where two or more gather in My Name, I will be there, will have no more place on the new earth as He will then be with the saved and His Father, ie the two thrones. That is the only logical explanation there is for this whole setup.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

Read the passages cited and others and you will see that the Persons have independent personalities, with a will, etc. They all work together.

I also beg to disagree with your statement. God sent Jesus to this earth to reveal God to man, to destroy Satan and his angels works and to teach man how to enter the kingdom of God. He also had to die for man's sin so that man could they could be saved as God is a God of mercy and could not let all of mankind die because of Adam and Eve's sin. Satan wants to destroy God's creation but there is now a chance of being saved, and that is by teaching the Truth. Sitting backwards and accepting the RCC teachings and doctrines is exactly what Satan wants. It is up to us who has knowledge of the Truth, to spread it to those that are willing to accept Jesus in their life and have the desire to be with God one day. Jesus' personality is that of God and the Holy Spirit on this earth is following the same pattern of Jesus. Instead of everybody fighting about non important issues, which Satan obviously likes, we need to concentrate on digging for the Truth and spread that Truth, and that is what I am doing.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

Persons are not necessarily tangible and I did not quote the RCC, but the Eastern Orthodox Church. We believe that Jesus Christ is God. Do you? If not, please do not write again.

Jesus Christ is NOT God as He is man. Please refer to the Bible Phil 2:6-8; Heb 2:17; Luk 24:39; 1 Joh 4:2; Joh 1:14 and 1 Tim 2:5. Jesus was a God with God the Father but became man on this earth. Who died on the cross if Jesus was God, as God cannot die?

 

[TruthFromFrank]

Persons are not necessarily tangible and I did not quote the RCC, but the Eastern Orthodox Church. We believe that Jesus Christ is God. Do you? If not, please do not write again.

Jesus Christ is NOT God as He is man. Please refer to the Bible Phil 2:6-8; Heb 2:17; Luk 24:39; 1 Joh 4:2; Joh 1:14 and 1 Tim 2:5. Jesus was originally a God with God the Father but became man on this earth. Who died on the cross if Jesus was God, as God cannot die?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Jesus Christ is NOT God as He is man. Please refer to the Bible Phil 2:6-8; Heb 2:17; Luk 24:39; 1 Joh 4:2; Joh 1:14 and 1 Tim 2:5. Jesus was originally a God with God the Father but became man on this earth. Who died on the cross if Jesus was God, as God cannot die?

The very passage you refer to in Philippians 2 says that the Lord Jesus 'thought it not robbery to be equal with God' (verse 6).

You refer to John 1.14 which says the Lord Jesus' glory is 'the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth'; a resounding testimony to His deity.

It seems, however, you have come to this site with the express purpose of denying among the most central doctrines of Biblical Christianity.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

Persons are not necessarily tangible and I did not quote the RCC, but the Eastern Orthodox Church. We believe that Jesus Christ is God. Do you? If not, please do not write again.

Jesus Christ is NOT God as He is man. Please refer to the Bible Phil 2:6-8; Heb 2:17; Luk 24:39; 1 Joh 4:2; Joh 1:14 and 1 Tim 2:5. Jesus was originally a God with God the Father but became man on this earth. Who died on the cross if Jesus was God, as God cannot die?

 

[TruthFromFrank]

The very passage you refer to in Philippians 2 says that the Lord Jesus 'thought it not robbery to be equal with God' (verse 6).

You refer to John 1.14 which says the Lord Jesus' glory is 'the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth'; a resounding testimony to His deity.

It seems, however, you have come to this site with the express purpose of denying among the most central doctrines of Biblical Christianity.

Remember, Jesus was created by God and lived with God face to face. So He could make the statement to be equal with God. Yes, Jesus had the deity status until God requested Him to come down to this earth to fulfill the tasks that was part of the Salvation Plan.
[FONT=&quot]The Bible teach us that in the beginning there were two Gods.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 1:1–2 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here we see that the Word was with God, therefore two individual entities, and that the Word was also a God, therefore two Gods. The verse also states two other things namely that the Word was with God which means that He left God and, that the Word was a God which means that afterwards He was not a God anymore. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The Word, which was a God, gave up His Godly status and became man or flesh on this earth and lived among the people.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]According to the Biblical texts, there is only one God, the Father. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Cor 8:4 “…..and that there is none other God but one.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The message is quite clear that there is only one God, the Father.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 Cor 8:6 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It confirms here that there is only one God who created everything and Jesus Christ took that which God created and gave form to it, which included man. It also proves here that there were two entities.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 Tim 2:5 “There is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It confirms here that there is only one God and also that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator between God and man. This is a very important fact to remember as some believers/churches teach that you do not need Jesus Christ to go God. Again, a confirmation that there are two entities. The text quote that Jesus Christ was man, and not a woman, whilst God had the title as the Holy Spirit.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 17:5 – “And now, O Father glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory I had with thee before the world was.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here we see Jesus’ request to God in prayer to glorify Him with the glory He had when He was with His Father before the world existed. Jesus Christ was not just an ordinary man, but truly the Son of God. Jesus Christ prayed this prayer just before He died on the cross, as He knew what lay ahead for Him.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 8:29 – “And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus[/FONT][FONT=&quot] confirms here that God is with Him, obviously in spirit form as the Holy Spirit, because He (Jesus) always do things that pleases His Father.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Joh 8:42 – “Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but He sent me.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus confirms here that God sent Him to earth and how obedient He was to God, as God has commanded Him and He listened and came to this earth, and if we accept God as our Father, then we would love Jesus because He has gone out of His Father. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]From the texts above we can deduct that Jesus Christ was the co-God and Word, which originally was with God and became flesh on this earth. Jesus originally was also a Holy Spirit just like God, and He willingly gave up His Godly status when He became man. This act of Jesus giving up His Godly status shows us His willingness, obedience and unselfishness to God and mankind. This left thus only God the Father, as the only Holy Spirit in the heaven. Jesus also confirmed that God is His Father who honoured Him. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and was on this earth to teach mankind who God really is and how to be willing, obedient and unselfish to God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John the Baptist received a message from God how to identify Jesus, the Son of God. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 1:33-34 – “And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom though shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John the Baptist spoke these words when he baptized Jesus Christ.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With the baptism of Jesus Christ, many heard the words coming down clearly from the heavens, which has also so been documented. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 3:17 - “And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mar 1:11- “And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luk 3:22 – “And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]From that which was spoken from heaven which everybody clearly heard, can we just conclude that is was only God’s voice, which then also confirmed that Jesus is His beloved Son and He is well pleased in Him.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]At one stage Peter, Jacob and John were with Jesus on a mountain when a cloud covered them and they heard a voice coming out of the cloud confirming that Jesus is His beloved Son.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Mat 17:5 “While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] If the voice confirmed that Jesus is His beloved son, then logically the voice came from Jesus’ Father. This fact is further confirmed in Mar 9:7, Luk 9:35 and 2 Pet 1:17.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jesus asked the man that He just healed from blindness:-[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 9:35-37 - “Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, who is He, Lord, that I might believe on Him? And Jesus said unto him ‘Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The first person that the man, which was blind from birth and has been healed, saw in front of him, was Jesus. It is also Jesus that spoke to him at that moment. Jesus confirmed to the ‘blind man’ who could then ‘see’, that He is the Son of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Incidents of ‘spirits of an unclean devil’, ‘unclean spirits’ and ‘devils’, who confirmed that Jesus was related to God, were documented by two disciples. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot] A man with the ‘spirit of an unclean devil’ confirms that Jesus is the Holy One of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Luk 4:33-34 – “And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? Art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The spirit of an unclean devil confirmed that Jesus is the Holy One of God which could mean that He is related to God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Luk 4:41 “And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Again a confirmation from many devils that Christ is the Son of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Mark 3:11 “And unclean Spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The unclean spirits, who were with God in heaven and knew Jesus, confirmed every time when they saw Jesus, that He is the Son of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Luk 22:42 Jesus kneeled and prayed to His Father and said:.”… Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]If Jesus prayed to God and called Him Father, then surely He has to be the Son of God. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Two different disciples documented the following regarding the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat. 27:50-54 - “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mark 15:37-39 – “And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. And when the Centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With the death of Jesus Christ, the ‘veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose, and came out of the graves.’ This was not a normal event and this made the centurion and his fellowman realize, that Jesus Christ was no ordinary man but that He was truly the Son of God. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] John the Baptist received the instruction from God to baptize people with water and to witness the light, and that the one on which the Spirit will descend, will be the one who would baptize with the Holy Spirit, and then confirmed that He is the Son of God. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 1:6-7 – “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 1:29 – “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 1:33-34 – “And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John received this instruction from God and he knew what the sign will be to identify the Son of God. When he saw the sign, he made it known to man and confirmed that Jesus is the Son of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Joh 8:54 – “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that He is your God.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus[/FONT][FONT=&quot] also confirms that God, is His Father who honoureth Him[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Summary[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With the various happenings that happened above namely -[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]John the Baptist received a message from God as to how to identify Jesus as the Son of God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]With the baptism of Jesus Christ, many clearly heard the words coming down from the heavens that Jesus Christ is His beloved Son in whom He is well pleased;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Peter, Jacob and John were with Jesus on a mountain when a cloud covered them and they heard a voice coming out of the cloud confirming that Jesus is His beloved Son;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Jesus confirmed to the ‘blind man’ who could then ‘see’, that He is the Son of God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]The evil spirits of Satan confirmed many times that Jesus Christ is the Holy One and the Son of God.;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Jesus prayed to God and called Him Father;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]The centurion realized at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, that He was no ordinary man and uttered that He was truly the Son of God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]-[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]confirms that Jesus Christ is truly the Son of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[TruthFromFrank]

The very passage you refer to in Philippians 2 says that the Lord Jesus 'thought it not robbery to be equal with God' (verse 6).

You refer to John 1.14 which says the Lord Jesus' glory is 'the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth'; a resounding testimony to His deity.

It seems, however, you have come to this site with the express purpose of denying among the most central doctrines of Biblical Christianity.

[FONT=&quot]The unclean spirits confirmed that Jesus is the Son of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mark 3:11 “And unclean Spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The unclean spirits, who were with Him in heaven and knew Him, confirmed every time that they saw Jesus, that He is the Son of God, and not as one of the Sons of God. Therefore we can accept that Jesus is the only Son.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] There will only be two thrones on the new earth. The one throne for God, and the other one for His only Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus is also known as the Lamb of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rev 22:3 “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If there is more than one Son, provision would have been made for more than two thrones because God will not give a throne just for one of His sons and not to the others. This fact clearly indicates that Jesus Christ is the only Son. .[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] The ‘counsel of peace’ will be between them both, God and Jesus. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Zech 6:13 - “Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne; and the counsel of peace between them both.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please note the word ‘both’ at the end of the text which means, that there will only be two thrones for God the Father and Jesus Christ, His Son, in the New Jerusalem. There will be no third throne for another God-head. If there were more sons it would have been referred to here that the counsel of peace would have been between more than the two (both) only. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A man with the ‘spirit of an unclean devil’ confirmed that Jesus is the Holy of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luk 4:33-34 – “And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? Art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The spirit of an unclean devil also confirmed that Jesus is the Holy One of God otherwise, he would have referred to as ‘One of the Holy of God’.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus confirmed to the man whom He just healed from blindness from birth, that He is the Son of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 9:35-37 – “Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is He that talketh with thee.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus would possibly have asked, ‘Do you believe that I am one of the sons of God?’ if there were more than one son, but He referred to Himself as the Son of God which creates the image that He is the only Son.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] With the baptism of Jesus Christ, God spoke from the heavens saying that Jesus is His beloved Son, which have been heard by many and has also been documented. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 3:17 - “And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God confirmed from the heavens that Jesus Christ is His beloved Son and that He is well pleased in Him. If there were more than one Son, it could have created other problems between the brothers, as God just called Jesus his beloved Son. God does not favour one above the other. Because God did not refer to Jesus as one of His beloved ‘sons’, we can thus accept that Jesus is the only Son.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]At one stage Peter, James and John were with Jesus on a mountain where a cloud covered them and they heard a voice coming out of the cloud confirming that Jesus is His beloved Son. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 17:5 “While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mar 9:7 “And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luk 9:35 “And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2Pet 1:17 “For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God confirmed to Peter, James and John that Jesus is His beloved Son and so is the message also carried forward by the apostles Mark, Luke and Peter. Again strong references and confirmations that Jesus is the only Son of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 1:14 – “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Joh 1:18 – “ No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 3:16 – “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Joh 4:9 – “In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] All the texts above creates the image that Jesus is truly the only Son of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] God lived as the Holy Spirit in Jesus Christ and He did all the works.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 14:10 – “Believeth thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus Himself here confirmed that the Father, also the Holy Spirit is within Him, and that His Father is doing the works.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jesus Christ spoke these words and confirmed that He came to this earth at God’s request.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 8:18 – “I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here we see that God sent Jesus, therefore an instruction from God to Jesus. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Jesus spoke these words Himself and confirmed that God existed and sent Him to this earth. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 8:26 – “I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus came because God gave Him the instruction, and to inform man that which He had heard from His Father. He also came to confirm to the people the existence of the real God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Jesus was also sent to this earth to preach the kingdom of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luk 4:43 – “And He said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus Christ confirmed here that He was sent by God and His goal was to preach the kingdom of God to mankind.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here is also proof that Jesus came to preach the kingdom of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luk 8:1 – “And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If Jesus did not come to preach and show the glad tidings of the kingdom of God, it all would have been just been fables.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Jesus explained to the people that He knew from where He came from and to where He is going.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 8:14 – “Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With Jesus’ hearing did He say the following Himself and admitted that He is not of this world and He came to bear witness unto the truth.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 18:36 – “My kingdom is not of this world…”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 18:37 – “….To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The three texts above confirm that Jesus knew from where He came from and that He came to bear witness unto the truth.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Another goal of Jesus’ visit to this world was to destroy the works of the devil (Satan). Satan was already in the beginning of the creation of Adam and Eve, on this world. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Joh 3:8 “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” It confirms here that the devil (Satan) sinned from the beginning of creation.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus laid down His life for mankind and we are also requested to have this same love towards our brothers. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Joh 3:16 – “Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus came and took all sin upon His shoulders and died for us so that we may have a chance to obtain eternal life. He also taught mankind that the love we have for our brothers must be just as strong that we will lay down our lives for them. Here we also find another confirmation of God’s Almighty love for us to send His Son to be the Redeemer for our sins.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Jesus also came to inform people how and what they must do to be saved.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Joh 5:1-3 – “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” This is one of the most important texts in the Bible and the one that is ignored the most.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God’s love for mankind is so great that He sent Jesus, His own Son, as atonement for man’s sin.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 Joh 4:10 – “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The unselfish love of God to send His Son to this earth to die for man’s sin is revealed here. Man now has a chance again to be with the heavenly Father. Jesus’ willingness to come down to this earth proves His love and obedience towards God and His love for mankind. Jesus knew exactly what lay ahead for Him but still came. His work on this earth was perfect and succeeded every time. He was nailed to the cross and, three days later, he was resurrected from the grave. Thereafter He was taken up to heaven. Is that not fantastic to know that we have a chance to be with God Almighty one day?[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[TruthFromFrank]

The very passage you refer to in Philippians 2 says that the Lord Jesus 'thought it not robbery to be equal with God' (verse 6).

You refer to John 1.14 which says the Lord Jesus' glory is 'the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth'; a resounding testimony to His deity.

It seems, however, you have come to this site with the express purpose of denying among the most central doctrines of Biblical Christianity.

There are many people in the world that is searching for the Truth. As there are around 26,000 different biblical churches around the world, all proclaiming that they teach the Truth and all of them have different teachings, we need to search for the Truth. We can only achieve it by having positive debates with facts to support our theories. When we do find that we are wrong, and I am the first one to admit that I could be wrong, I need to change. But the Bible teaches us to search and retain the good and that is exactly what I am doing. If you cannot answer some of my questions, in which case you did, means that you need knowledge, and to obtain that, you need to study more. My purpose on this web site is not to find fault in everything that is being said, but rather to provide the Truth as I have discovered over many years of study without printing a book and charging for it as I feel that everybody is a creation of God and we should not go out and charge people to provide them the Truth. That must be an unselfish act of giving. Everyone of us have some talents and we need to work with it because that is what God wants us to do. So, instead of trying to demoralize me with your writing, rather be positive about it. Maybe if you put your ego in the dustbin, you may find that there are some Truth in what I have written. It will be no shame to then accept it, as I believe you will be one step closer to God. Have a good day.

 

[resurrection33]

Well hello!
All you Christians out there I want YOUR opinion!

I have studied this doctrine defined as the Trinity, and I tend to see a lot of issues with it. So I am just curious is someone that actually knows anything about it. (Not what you have always been taught, But what you have Studied) Would give me a brief but intellectual standpoint on it, in hopes of a discussion. What is the Trinity in your own words? And from a biblical point of view Why do you believe it?

I believe in one God who is simultaneously a Father (God, the Creator), Son (Jesus Christ – God in flesh), and Holy Spirit (this is God when he is speaking directly to our spirits), just as a man can simultaneously be a father, son, husband, engineer, policeman, etc.

 

[newbirth]

Just a sample of what Scripture teaches:

The Father and the Son are not the same person:
Matthew 11:27
27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Galatians 4:4-7
4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.[a] 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

John 17:3
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Ephesians 1:17
17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[a] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

John 8:16
16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Matthew 27:45–46
45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[a] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

1 Thessalonians 1:10
10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

The Son and the Spirit are not the same person:
Acts 10:38
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

Romans 8:11
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[a] his Spirit who lives in you.

The Father and the Spirit are not the same.
John 14:26
26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26
26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

Father is God:
Philippians 1:2
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is God:
John 20:28
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Colossians 2:9
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

Holy Spirit is God:
Acts 5:3–4
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”



Plurality from the beginning:
Genesis 1:26
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”


Some of the Roles of the Father:
Draws people to the Son (John 6:44)
Father gives sheep to the Son (John 10:29)
Father has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12)
Ultimate source/cause of universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11)
Divine revelation (Revelation 1:1)
Salvation (John 3:16-17)
Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10)
Chooses who will be saved (Eph 1:4)

Some of the roles of the Son:
Atones for Sin (1 John 2:2)
Creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17)
Divine revelation (John 1:1; 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1)
Salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42)
Redeems (Eph 1:7)


Holy Spirit:
Seals the believer's Salvation (Ephesians 1:13)
Creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30)
Divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21)
Salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2)
Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38)
Holy Spirit seals (Eph 1:13)

Other verses dealing with Personhood:
Distinction between Father and Son (John 14:23)
Son sent by the Father (John 6:38)
Father gives sheep to the Son (John 10:29)
Father is Greater than Son (John 14:28)
Paul says “God and Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 1:2, 12)
Jesus is the image the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
David says “The Lord says to My Lord(Psalm 110:1)
The Lord Has a Son (Psalm 2:7,12 Proverbs 30:2-4)
Spirit distinguished from Lord (Numbers 27:18)
Spirit distinguished from God ((Psalm 51:10-12)
God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9)
Says the Father will send a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17)
Son makes reference to Father and Spirit ( Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1)
Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking.
Spirit descents upon Son, father is pleased (Matthew 3:16-17)
Baptize in name of each person (Matthew 28:19)
Grace of Jesus, Love of God, fellowship of Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 13:14)

As was mentioned already, you have a pretty well irrefutable text demonstrating the distinctiveness of the three persons.

Matthew 3:13-17
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. 14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented. 16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son,[c] with whom I am well pleased.”

Conclusion? The doctrine of the Trinity is true.

look at how many scriptures to try to prove a point...when the same scripture clearly states ....
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
All things are of God the Father and all things by our Lord Jesus Christ....what part of all don't you understand.

 

[2Thewaters]

I have read my Bible and there is no mention of trinity...
where did you get that idea from?

 

[newbirth]

I believe in one God who is simultaneously a Father (God, the Creator), Son (Jesus Christ – God in flesh), and Holy Spirit (this is God when he is speaking directly to our spirits), just as a man can simultaneously be a father, son, husband, engineer, policeman, etc.

Just because you believe something does not make it true
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[2Thewaters]

I have read my Bible and there is no mention of trinity...
where did you get that idea from?

 

[newbirth]

Sure, it is perfectly said.

Christians, acctually, are only them who trust in Trinity.
Cause we confess Jesus as God (=Son of God) only through our faith that the mind of Jesus Christ and nature of His personality is God Son - second person of Holy Trinity.

Neither cmckey7127, nor Disciple539 are christians (though they called themselves such way in their profiles).

Following apostoles we (christians) confess our trust that Jesus personality existed before Abraham and before Adam and before even the act of creation universe.

Whoever does not trust it, can not confess Jesus as Son of God. So can not be called as christian.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
No trinity here one God one Lord....before you respond check all the beginning of the epistles...

 

[newbirth]

Jesus Christ is NOT God as He is man. Please refer to the Bible Phil 2:6-8; Heb 2:17; Luk 24:39; 1 Joh 4:2; Joh 1:14 and 1 Tim 2:5. Jesus was a God with God the Father but became man on this earth. Who died on the cross if Jesus was God, as God cannot die?

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 4:3-5
King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

Colossians 1:14-16
King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
John 1
[SUP]10 [/SUP]He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.