Follow up thoughts of the "RAPTURE" from previous post!

Linda70 · Jun 9, 2014

PlainWord,

I'll make this brief.

First of all, I never use red font---therefore, I don't know why that font is in red, but it's not the way I post. The only time I use red font is when I post the words of Christ Scriptures, but I don't ever use the bright red, I use the "brick" red color.

Secondly, the Great Tribulation IS the wrath of God....it is also called the Day of the Lord 26 times in 24 verses in the OT, beginning in Isaiah 2:12 through Malachi 4:5, and 5 times in 5 verses in the NT, beginning in Acts 2:20 through 2 Peter 3:10. The Great Tribulation is also called the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7), and the day of His wrath (Psalms 110:5; Isaiah 13:6-13; Revelation 6:17). The Great Tribulation is expressly called the day of God's wrath. Today the Lord is withholding His anger; He is seated upon a throne of grace, but the day approaches when He will take the seat of judgment. Then "the day of his wrath" will be upon all the world (Psalms 110:5; Isaiah 13:6-13; Revelation 6:17).

Satan is not behind the Rapture doctrine, and whoever teaches this is deceived and deceiving others. The Rapture is a biblical doctrine.

PlainWord · Jun 9, 2014

Linda70 said:

I changed your font color to red to point out what I was referring to.

The Great Tribulation CANNOT possibly be the Wrath of God as God does not establish a False Christ to compete with Him. We learn from Daniel 11-12 that this Abomination of Desolation sends armies against Israel. How any Christian can see God being behind this baffles me.

God comes and rescues what's left of His people. Yes, he uses their near destruction to bring His people back to Him as He has done repeatedly in the past but this is NOT HIS WRATH.

The Day of the Lord is NOT the Great Tribulation Linda. Nowhere are you told this, except perhaps at your church. The Day of the Lord last 1,000 years during which Christ comes, defeats His enemies and reigns. Scripture backs me up and disagrees with your position.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is NOT Biblical. It is NOT taught and none of the key tenants of the doctrine can be found anywhere in the Bible. Those are the facts.

You like to say that the Rapture differs from the Second Advent in that Christ only descends to the clouds the first time but the second time He descends to earth. My response to that is NO!!

Read your hero Rapture passage again:

1 Thes 4:17:

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The story stops. Now read a clear passage of the 2nd Advent Return

Mat 24:

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Again the story stops. Neither passage describes what the Lord does next. Nothing says He touches down, nothing says He returns to heaven. Yet you have no problem in seeing the Lord return to Heaven in the first passage. To you that makes better sense than Him just finishing His trip to earth.

My view is both passages are the same. Both contain the Lord returning, both contain clouds and a gathering of Elect. Incidentally Linda, neither passage talks about any living person being transformed. In fact there are no passages that discuss the Lord's return where living people are transformed.

You called me out on deceiving others. Let me ask you this. There are 3 main views; Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib. Only one is correct!! Two have the Lord returning once then comes wrath. Yours has the Lord coming twice and after the wrath. You have nothing to support your view.

Linda70 · Jun 9, 2014

PlainWord said:

Then why did you infer that I posted this statement in red? But that's beside the point now.

God does not establish a False Christ to compete with Him.

If it is NOT HIS WRATH, then why is He allowing this destruction and evil to reign during those 7 years of Tribulation? Perhaps God should apologize for His judgment and wrath upon Sodom and Gomorrah? After the first 7 judgment "seals" are broken during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation, why does the apostle John call this period "the great day of his WRATH"?

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The Day of the Lord is the period of time in which God will judge the world and establish His kingdom on earth. In this day God will be exalted and rebellious men humbled. "The day of the Lord" sometimes refers to one aspect of this final work, such as the Great Tribulation preceding Christ's return (Isaiah 2:10-21). In other places it refers to the entire period, including the Tribulation, the Second Coming, the Millennial Reign, and the Eternal state following the Great White Throne judgment (Zechariah 14).

THE DESCRIPTION OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

1. "the great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21)
2. "the day of the Lord" (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6)
3. "the indignation of the Lord" (Isaiah 26:21; 34:2)
4. "his strange work" (Isaiah 28:21)
5. "a consumption" (Isaiah 28:22)
6. "the day of the Lord's vengeance" (Isaiah 34:8)
7. "the Lord's controversy with the nations" (Jeremiah 25:31)
8. "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7)
9. "the time of the heathen" (Ezekiel 30:3)
10. "time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" (Daniel 12:1)
11. "a destruction from the Almighty" (Joel 1:15)
12. "a day of darkness" (Joel 2:1)
13. "the great and terrible day of the Lord" (Joel 2:31)
14. "The great day of the Lord" (Zephaniah 1:14)
15. "The day of the Lord's wrath" (Zephaniah 1:18)
16. "The fire of my jealousy" (Zephaniah 3:8)
17. "The great and dreadful day of the Lord" (Malachi 4:5)

The Pre-tribulation rapture IS biblical and the Scripture has been shown to you many times....but each time those Scriptures are posted, you refute and reject this biblical teaching. Therefore, there is nothing more to say to you concerning this doctrine. You have obviously been thoroughly saturated with "another" doctrine (post-trib rapture) which is a non-event.

Your response is typical for post-tribbers.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 was written to the CHURCH, not Israel. Matthew 24:29-30 was written to ISRAEL, not the church. Two different groups of people. Obviously, you do not make a distinction between Israel and the Church (but we've been through that already). The Day of the Lord begins when the church is raptured...Jesus comes FOR His Church in 1 Thess. 4:17. In Matthew 24:29-30, Jesus is coming back (after the 7 year tribulation) WITH His church TO the earth to set up His earthly 1,000 year Kingdom in Jerusalem. Two parts to the Second Coming. But since you have the church going through the Tribulation, you can't see this....because you blur the two parts into ONE. There is only ONE Second Coming, but it is in two parts.

In the first passage, we do see the Lord return to heaven....read it CAREFULLY:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do we remain "in the air"? I don't think so....but it does say "and so shall we ever be with the Lord." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Lord isn't going to remain in the air and we will be with Him forever "in the air". We will be going somewhere. It also doesn't say that we will return to the earth in that verse....so where will we go? Post-trib would have the church meet the Lord in the clouds at the second coming and returning right back to earth...something like a yo-yo.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

You might have to do some "cross referencing" here to find your answer...so here it is:

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 12-14 describe the Second Coming of Christ TO the earth, Armageddon, and the setting up of the 1,000 year earthly Kingdom in Jerusalem.

Also, at His ascension from the Mount of Olives in Acts 1:11:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Yes, both passages has the Lord returning and containing clouds...but not both "gathering the Elect". There is only a "gathering of the Elect" in the Matthew 24 passage, not in the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage. In the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage, there is a "catching up" to meet the Lord "in the air". In the Matthew 24 passage there 29"shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...." There are NO signs in the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage. The "elect" in the Matthew 24 passage is ISRAEL, not the Church saints (who are also elect, but not in Matthew 24, because the Church didn't exist at that time). There are no people transformed in either the Matthew 24 passage or the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage. However, in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 it says:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Therefore, those two passages are not the same and you are incorrect...and 1 Cor. 15:51-53 speaks of our being "changed".

The biblical doctrine of the Pre-trib rapture is correct. Pre-trib doesn't teach the Lord coming twice AFTER the wrath. The Second Coming of Christ is in two parts. First, He comes FOR His Church BEFORE the Day of the Lord (His wrath), then the second part of His return (Second coming) is AFTER the tribulation WITH His Church TO the earth (Zechariah 14:4) to rescue Israel at Armageddon and set up His 1,000 year earthly Kingdom in Jerusalem. I believe I have Scripturally supported the biblical view (pre-trib rapture). It is not "my view"....I simply believe what the Bible teaches concerning the soon return of Jesus Christ for His Church.

Maranatha!

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

Linda,

Thank you, glad you agree. The Great Tribulation is all about Satanic deception. Read Mat 24:21-27 again. It is deception, persecution and slaughtering of Christians except for the Elect. Rev 2:22 places the Church in Thyatira smack in the middle of the Great Tribulation so clearly at least 1 of 7 are still on earth.

Rev 3:10 promises the Church of Philadelphia that they will be "Kept from the Hour of Trial which shall come upon the whole world (not the unbelieving world), to test those who dwell on the earth." Only those who persevere will be kept, not raptured. Hour of Trial?? Test?? Persevere?? Trial, Test = Tribulation Linda. Persevere = Endure or Lasting. Sure sounds like another church is on earth.

Philadelphia was the best of the 7 and they are on earth being kept from the test. How are they kept? Who knows, maybe its like the Passover where they aren't even tempted. We know 100% for a fact that Satan will be tempting and deceiving. Satan wages war on Israel's offspring - the Church. Satan overcomes the Saints. The days have to be shortened for the sake of the "Elect" or even they may be deceived. God intervenes, He doesn't cause it.

You see the Elect, the 144K as new Christians but they are called "Faithful and Chosen and Firstfruits." References to there being Saints and at least 2 of 7 churches on earth during the Tribulation is all over the place. We know a Great Multitude of Christians are killed and seen in heaven during the Great Trib. You see all of them as new Christians who come to Christ after the so-called Rapture. NOTHING tells us this!!

You see a great revival after Christ returns. Nothing tells us this either, instead we are taught there will be a huge falling away!! Huge Unrighteous deception where untold millions of Christians are killed is clearly taught. Warning are issued everywhere yet you don't see them applying to you instead you see everything applying to these "New Christians" who wouldn't stand a chance. Why test brand new Christians whose faith is so new?? The fact is nothing says they are Tribulation Saints!! No distinction can be found just as no distinction between 2 supposed returns of Christ can be found. But you have to make these distinctions in your mind to support the Rapture theory because otherwise your theory collapses. The Bible doesn't make these distinctions - an invention of man does.

You believe a doctrine which teaches the below key tenants yet NONE of these tenants are found anywhere in the Bible!!

1. The Lord Returns before the Tribulation - No verse states this
2. The Lord makes two separate returns - No verse states this
3. The living are translated as part of a return of Christ - No verse associates a translation of living with Christ return
4. The Lord upon returning, goes back to heaven - No verse teaches this
5. The Lord brings resurrected and translated saints back to heaven - No verse teaches this
6. Saints verses Tribulation Saints - this distinction is not made
7. Church treated differently than Israel, church spared testing - No verse teaches this
8. 2,000 years of Christ promised church persecution suddenly reversed - No verse teaches this
9. Christians immune to Satan's Big Test - Not only is this not taught, we are warned by Christ and Paul not to be deceived.
10. Christ never teaches the Rapture Doctrine. There is no Rapture lesson - it is manufactured by taking several unrelated passages out of context and piecing them together.

The Rapture Doctrine was invented in 1830. Prior to this only one return of Christ was taught. The Immanency of Christ was taught but that does not equate to a whole additional return. If you look at all the old hymns from the 1800s, none of them discuss the Rapture; instead they discuss Christ coming and waging war against the wicked.

Read the Lyrics for Onward Christian Solders
Read the Lyrics for the Battle Hymn of the Republic

If the Pre-Trib Rapture was real, all we would need is a verse that says something like this. "Before the Tribulation of those days, I will return to gather my Church in the clouds and take them alive to heaven." Something like this that is clear and concise and there would be no debate. But we don't find anything clear and concise and we know "God is not the author of Confusion." And we further know who is. We further know who stands to gain by getting Believers to think Christ comes before the Man of Sin when both Jesus and Paul teach that the Man of Sin comes first.

If Christ comes first, who would be left for Satan to deceive?
If Christ comes first and everyone sees him, who then would think Satan was Christ just 3.5 years later?
If you think Christ comes first, then Satan, then Christ again, wouldn't you know the 2nd appearance was Satan?

The Rapture Doctrine has more holes in it than Titanic. It is a Private Interpretation of Prophesy and a Tradition of Man.

Satan has put a short time. He knows this. Do you really think he is just sitting on his hands or is he doing something now?

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work

Maranatha!

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

1 Thes 4:17 does not contain a timing. 2 Thes 2:1-3 was written to exactly the same church by the same author dealing with the same subject and it does contain a timing which happens to agree with Mat 24!!

Mat 24 = 1 Thes 4. They are nearly identical.

1 Thes 4 does not = 1 Cor 15:51. They have absolutely NOTHING in common.

Why do you insist on separating Mat 24 from 1 Thes 4 when they agree and are completely consistent with each other?

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PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

Since we know Christ is returning to earth to reign then it's clear He will be here. Since we will be with Him always we will be here too. This agrees with John 14 as well. You see Him returning to heaven and taking us with Him but NOTHING teaches that!! It is wishful thinking and not a Biblical doctrine. A lesson that cannot be supported by a passage in the Bible is a theory, not a reality.

Conclusion: We aren't told what the Lord does next in either 1 Thes 4 or Mat 24. Both stop with us being "gathered" thus they agree. We do have other passages showing the Lord on earth after the Tribulation. We have no passage where we are told the Lord returns to heaven or takes anyone with Him. Those are the facts!!

The only reason you refuse to connect Mat 24 and 1 Thes 4 is because it would destroy your doctrine. That is the only reason and no other reason exists.

23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

Oops. Apparently Christ forgot about the Rapture as being a sign to the FATHERS OF THE CHURCH. THE CHURCH BEGAN JEWISH!!

Linda70 · Jun 11, 2014

However, at the present time, the majority of the Church is Gentile, and the apostle Paul was the apostle to the GENTILES.

The Church and the nation of Israel are not the same....two distinct and separate entities.

Matthew 24-25 (Olivet Discourse) - to the nation of Israel.

1 Thessalonians (and all Paul's epistles) - were written to the Church, which, at that time, was mainly Gentile.

Don't "mix" the two..."things that are different are not the same."

The_Seeker · Jun 11, 2014

Fair warning. Grab a cup of coffee. Get your reading glasses on, and have a Bible nearby, (preferrably on your browser, in a tab adjacent to this post). This is going to be a long one.

Hi Linda70. I am a student of Biblical prophecy. I have studied the end times since 1994, and I believe that I may have some answers for you.

Linda70 said:

I originally was not going to respond to this post, since I do not like debating Pre-tribulation rapture believers. It is not because of the people, and I do not believe that the people who follow that doctrine are heretics or anything like that, but it is the doctrine that I find offensive. You will understand my position when I am done with this post. You have been warned, I hope you have your coffee.

Let's first look at Revelation 6. Since when does the wicked know when the Lord is coming? Take a look at who says what in that chapter.

Revelation 6:12-17 (NIV)
I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?

Do you see it yet? The wicked will not know when the Lord will come.

Matthew 24:36
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

So you see, when the wicked call for the rocks to hide them from the face of God, they are the ones fleeing, and all of it is because they believed, as many Christians do today, that the sign of the coming of the Lord is the sun turning black and the moon turning blood red. Joel 2 concurs with me, as well as Zechariah 14.

Joel 2:31
The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

That one word makes all of the difference in the world. Let's see what Zechariah 14 says about the coming of the Lord, and the sign in which will mark His coming.

Zechariah 14:5-7
You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake[a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then theLord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.

Notice something missing? There is light, but the source of that light is neither the sun or the moon. In fact, both are blackened as yet there is light on Earth at night. Verse 5 calls this moment, the coming of the Lord with His saints. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

Matthew 24 concurs with Zechariah 14.

Matthew 24:29-30
“Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

That means no sun or moonlight when the Lord comes. The only light in the sky will be Him and His saints.

To answer your question, the Lord has certain things happen because His ways are greater than our ways. God allows bad things to happen all of the time, and yet, the only time this is questioned is concerning the Great Tribulation?

I do not prescribe to your timeline, because the timeline that I have derived from the Bible makes quite a bit more sense.

1. The Birth Pangs

This is a period of time that we are currently living in. This is where the nations are attempting to prepare the world fro their king, the Beast. We do not have to go anywhere to see the extant in which the world is gearing itself up for her king. Turn on the news.

2. Falling away.

In Matthew 24, a period of time is prophesied when many will turn away from the faith. I say that we are living in that period of time right now, with the propagation of false doctrines and the hypocrisy that many in the local churches show even today, has led many to reject the Church altogether. (Church=Christ's body, not a denomination. I include Catholicism as a denomination.....) At this point, wickedness will increase, and the love of most will grow cold. I say that today is that day, since I know of many people whose ideas of love are anything but. The fact that our children in America are getting more and more homosexual like in recent days attests to this trend of increasing wickedness.

3. The persecutions. A series of persecutions will hit the Church, if it hasn't already. Going by the news, I would say that those in Africa and the Middle East know about this persecution very well. It will probably spread into the United States and the rest of the West very soon, although I do not know when that will happen.

4. The First Day of the Great Tribulation
5. The Great Tribulation
6. The Lord's return
7. The Lord's judging of the world, God handing over this world to Jesus Christ and His saints.
8. The Messianic Age
9. Satan's release and final rebellion.
10. The end of this Earth.

It appears that you do not understand the purpose behind the Great Tribulation. This is the purpose of the Great Tribulation.

Daniel 7:23-27
“He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.[b]
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worshipand obey him.’

Revelation 12:13-17
When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

The purpose of the Great Tribulation is the fact that Satan will openly rebel against God again. This time, he will give the kingdoms of the Earth, which Adam gave him in the Garden of Eden, to a man who will wage a war against all who identifies themselves with the God of Israel, and defeat them. He will kill both Jew and Gentile believers in Jesus Christ because...

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.

Because of the fact that this is going to be his fate when the Lord returns...

Revelation 20:1-3
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

...he wants to go out with a bang. God is going to imprison Satan, and because of that, Satan, enraged, attacks not God, but the people of God, namely Jews and Christians. That is one of the purposes of the Great Tribulation. God has decided to allow this to happen so that Satan cannot say that he was unjustly put in the Abyss. That is one of God's purposes for allowing Satan to have his little rebellion.

Another purpose is so that God will bring His people, the Israelites, back to Him. According to Zechariah 14:1-5, Jesus will step on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in half. Those who are under duress will run through this mountain valley, and like Revelation 12 states, they will be protected for the duration of the Great Tribulation. The 144,000 will be with Him so no one will be able to correctly identify Him among the crowd that will be standing in the Mount of Olives when He splits it. This act of saving the Jews in Jerusalem from the wrath of Satan will bring them back to Him, as Zechariah 12 explains.

Zechariah 12:3-10

On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’
6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intactin her place.
7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shieldthose who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

The pattern, as established in Zechariah 12, is that after Jerusalem is attacked by the nations, after the Lord protects them from the horde that is desiring their extinction, the Israelite remnants will repent of the sins, and mourn after Jesus Christ, the firstborn son reference in verse 10. When this prophecy is fulfilled, all Israel shall be saved. This happens on the first day of the Great Tribulation. This is another reason why God is allowing the Great Tribulation to happen.

Here is the problem I have with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory. It was derived from someone misinterpreting Daniel 9:24-27. With that misinterpretation, errors resulted.

1. The Great Tribulation last only 3.5 years, as written in Daniel 7, Revelation 12 and 13.
2. Daniel 9:24-27 focuses on two things: 1. the city of Jerusalem, and 2. the people of Jerusalem. Both are referring to Jews, not Christians. The requirements for fulfillment have nothing to do with the actual end times, but rather the results of what happens during those times.

Most pre-tribbers hang their hats on Daniel 9:27, stating that this is the tribulation period. I disagree. The seven year reference is so that the people will understand how long that this individual who is to become the Abomination that Causes Desolation will be alotted to deal with Jerusalem. Seven years is all the time he has to associate and be around Jerusalem. After that, according to Daniel 7 and Revelation 19, the Abomination that causes Desolation is hurled into the Lake of Fire. To call those seven years "the Tribulational Period", when these prophecies in Daniel 9 have nothing to do with Christians or the Great Tribulation, (other than to say that the Great Tribulation will begin during these last seven years), is to make a serious doctrinal error. The Great Tribulation only last 3.5 years, and the portion of scripture that people should be looking at as far as to identifying the purpose and length of the Great Tribulation should start at Daniel 7, not 9.

Does this make me a post-tribber? Absolutely. Does that mean that what I wrote is not biblical, not in the least, not with as many scriptures that I have just referenced in this one post.

Linda70 · Jun 11, 2014

Seeker...

First of all, I have been studying Bible prophecy since 1976...18 years longer than you have. Back in the 70s and 80s, post trib teachers/believers had tried to "convince" me of a post trib rapture, using the very same arguments and Scripture references you have done here. They could not "convince" me then, and you (and the others) will not "convince" me now. I really don't know why you guys go to such lengths simply to "rehash" the same stuff over and over again. It is becoming redundant and to be honest with you (and the others), I don't read 95% of what you post here. You are wasting my time and yours.

The post trib is a non-event. I am looking for Christ, Who is the Blessed Hope of the Church, not for the antichrist. You can continue to believe what you want. I know you guys are sincere in what you believe, but you are sincerely wrong.

Just because you reference a lot of Scripture in your post, does not make what you believe "biblical".

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

Linda70 said:

So are you saying that Paul taught a brand new doctrine and revealed the Rapture where nobody else did prior to or since? Christ, the one who is returning, did not reveal the Rapture. It was reserved for Paul. Is that your view?

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

I don't want to put words in your mouth Linda but you seem to make two distinctions, National Israel and the Church as one distinction then the Gentile Church and Jewish Church as a second distinction. Can I ask what your basis is for distinguishing between the Gentile Church and the Jewish Church???

I agree, Paul ministered primarily to the Gentile Church. It was his calling since Paul was half Jewish and half Roman (Gentile). James was the father of the Jewish church in Jerusalem and at the time, it was the largest of all the churches. If you recall, it was Peter who was given the instruction to open the Gospel up to the Greek. Peter was 100% Jewish. Peter and James were 2 of the 4 present for the Olivet Discourse.

The church officially began at Pentecost, 50 days after Passover and 10 days after Christ ascended. 3,000 souls were converted that day, presumably mostly Jewish since they were in Jerusalem at the time. The Holy Spirit came with the rushing sound like the wind. The HS came to who??? The Jewish disciples. It was through the HS that the disciples were able to heal the sick and cast out demons. The same HS that gave the Jewish disciples and early church leaders of all the churches, the gifts to speak in tongues and to prophesy. This is the same HS that we all love and adore in the Gentile Church but who did the HS visit first, the Jewish Church or the Gentile church??

All I am saying is to be careful Linda. We (the Gentiles) are grafted in with them (the Jews). It isn't the other way around. For if we are grafted in with the Jewish Olive Tree, why then are we ripped out and raptured while they are left to be tested and refined by Satan's tribulation?

Romans 11:25 NKJV

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

How can the fullness of the Gentiles come in if they are Raptured and the Jews left behind?

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

What do you define as the Jewish Olive Tree of Romans 11. Is it the Jewish Nation or the Jewish Church? Think carefully before answering.

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

Linda70 said:

It's because we love you Linda and our other Brothers and Sisters in Christ. We know that you have drunk the Kool Aid and it is a very dangerous Kool Aid. It may not matter in your lifetime but it will to those alive when it happens and it will cost many their lives and great shame.

Satan is coming with all unrighteous deception to deceive, if possible, even the Elect - those with the Knowledge of God sealed on their foreheads. Satan comes performing great wonders claiming to be Christ. He will be most convincing. Those eagerly expecting Jesus to come first will be at the greatest risk for deception. This is why Paul tells the same Thessalonians to NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MEANS concerning the day Christ returns.

I realize your mind is made up and I am wasting my time but I hope others who read the debate and haven't closed their minds will see the truth.

Consider the 10 virgins. All watching. 5 brought enough oil and had "Patience and Faith." 5 only brought the oil they had in their lamps. Pre Tribbers are watching but doing nothing to prepare. They have no extra oil and no provisions. They don't think they need them because they expect to be raptured long before the Mark of the Beast and long before you can't buy or sell. Those of us who are both watching and preparing are wise to do so.

The ironic thing is many fundamentalists today (and I was raised one) are actually trying to help bring the Jewish Temple back because they think it will speed up their rapture. Instead they are speeding up their own persecution since there is no Rapture and they aren't going anywhere.

I wonder what they will say when the temple is built and they are still here?? Will they then admit they were wrong?? Will they recognize the Abomination when they see it and admit they were wrong then?? I doubt it. Too much pride.

Linda70 · Jun 11, 2014

PlainWord said:

Why do you insist on telling me to "think carefully before answering"? Do you really think that I (and most dispensationalists) don't think at all?

The "Olive Tree" in Romans 11 is neither the nation of Israel nor the (Jewish?) Church. There is only ONE Body/Church and it is composed of BOTH saved Jews and saved Gentiles. The "Olive Tree" is the "place of God's blessing".

Romans 11:16 - The firstfruits and root refer to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (the "fathers" - Romans 11:28). The fathers were holy because they were chosen by God. They were separated and chosen by God for a unique purpose. Out of them would come God’s special and holy nation (Deuteronomy 7:6-8; Jeremiah 2:2-3).

Romans 11:17 - The natural branches refer to Israel. The wild branches refer to the Gentiles. The cultivated olive tree refers to the place of God’s blessing. The wild olive tree is not the place of blessing (Ephesians 2:11-13) but branches from the wild olive tree are grafted into the cultivated olive tree and are then able to partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree (Romans 11:17). Some of the natural branches were "broken off, because of unbelief" (Romans 11:20). Wild branches (Gentiles) were "grafted in among them" because of faith in Christ and are in the place of God's blessing.

Pretty simple. I've known this for almost 40 years and it really doesn't matter whether you disagree with me or not.

GaryA · Jun 11, 2014

Linda70 said:

No.

Linda70 said:

No.

Linda70 said:

No.

Linda70 said:

No.

Linda70 said:

No. And, there is no 70th-week-of-Daniel 7-year Great Tribulation period. This idea comes from a misinterpretation of this passage in Daniel.

The prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 has been 100% completely fulfilled.

Linda70 said:

The Great Tribulation period and the Time of Jacob's Trouble are two different things.

Linda70 said:

The Day of the Lord, the Great Tribulation period, and the Wrath of God are three different things. ( In 'event' terms. )

Linda70 said:

In the context of Matthew 16:18, the statement "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" is saying that the Church will not cease to exist on the earth before hell is thrown into the lake of fire ( which is AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment ).

"Think about it..."

Linda70 · Jun 11, 2014

PlainWord said:

The pre-tribulation rapture of the Church is a BIBLICAL doctrine! I'm really sorry but it is you who have bought into the deception and drank the "Kool Aid"...not I. Trying to convince me of a false doctrine is NOT the love of Christ you claim you have for me and also those whom you are also trying to convince.

It appears as though he (Satan) has you and many others convinced of the deception of a post tribulation rapture and that the Church MUST go through the tribulation (time of Jacob's trouble).

Your doctrine is not the truth and that is why it is so important that born again Christians "rightly divide" the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

My mind is "closed" to the deception of a post tribulation rapture and I pray that others will also "close" their minds to this deception. Keeping an "open" mind is really not a good idea....false teachings and deception just seem to "drop in" to the mind that remains "open" to deception.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

The parable of the 10 virgins teaches that we are to be "ready"....but says nothing about "stockpiling" The stage is already set for the mark and honestly, I don't believe that "post-tribbers" are any more ready for what is coming than they claim about those "pre-tribbers" who are "looking and loving the coming of the Lord" for His Church. The Blessed Hope of the Church is the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church....."Wherefore, comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4:18) Why would the apostle Paul write these words of "comfort" if the Church is to be looking for antichrist and going through 7 years of tribulation, which is God's judgment and wrath? What kind of comfort is that?

Stop the stereotyping of ALL "fundamentalists"! Not ALL "fundamentalists are trying to bring the Jewish Temple back in order to speed up the rapture. Not ALL "fundamentalists" are John Hageeites. The pre-tribulation rapture is IMMINENT - it can happen at any time. Nothing needs to happen to "make' it come or to "speed" it up. It will happen w/o warning and only when God says it will happen...not one micro-second before. However, the non-event post tribulation rapture event/teaching destroys the IMMINENCY of Christ's coming FOR His Church and I'm afraid you folks will not be ready.

Keep wondering....you just might still be here to see it. As a matter of fact, it may get built (with no "help" from "fundametalists") before the pre-tribualtion Rapture....but its presence isn't necessary in order for the rapture to occur.

Maranatha!

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

Because of the trap I think you just fell into... Not because I don't think you study or lack knowledge...

By your statement, "There is only ONE Body/Church and it is composed of BOTH saved Jews and saved Gentiles," can I take that to mean you believe the Olive Tree is the Church and Body of Christ made up of both saved Jews and Gentiles? Correct me if I am mis- characterizing your views. Since you are an admitted Dispensationalist, can I also assume that you believe the Church Age ends at the Pre-Trib Rapture?? If so, does that mean those saved after the Rapture i.e., during the Tribulation are not part of the Church, thus not part of the Body of Christ thus not part of the Olive Tree?

If that is the case, please explain how this passage fits into your belief system.

Rom 11:

24 For if you (Gentiles) were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree (Jews), how much more will these (Jews), who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel (Emphasis on Israel, national Israel) until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Can you see that this building of the olive tree is a process that continues "Until all (not some) of the Gentiles have come in???

26 And so all Israel (National Israel) will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; When does this happen? When does the Deliverer of Israel do this? At the Rapture or after the Tribulation?

27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

We know from Zech 13 and many other places that the Lord restores Israel (the remaining 1/3) when He returns after the tribulation. We see from the above that the restored and believing Israel become part of the Olive Tree when the "FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES HAVE COME IN." Since we both agree that there will be more Gentiles saved during the Tribulation and that Israel is restored when Jesus returns then there is ONE outcome, NOT two. There is ONE TREATMENT for the church and Israel, NOT TWO. There is no passage that explains separately outcomes as you suggest. But the passage above clearly states there is one tree and it is not completed until Israel is restored.

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

Thus the Olive Tree is made up of ALL SAVED. All believing Gentiles, all believing Jews and the Nation of Israel that Christ restores when He returns after the Tribulation and rescues them from overwhelming odds. This is the clear teaching of Paul.

...blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob"

We are told right here that the Gentiles are still coming into the tree right up until Israel is saved which is clearly when Christ returns after the Tribulation. This is when the blindness is lifted and Israel's eyes are opened and not before this.

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him... ...Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...

Which doctrine teaches that Christ comes back before the Man of Sin is revealed Linda???

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

Now how could Satan use such a deception to his advantage if I believe that we are to ignore Satan when he comes claiming to be Christ and wait for the real Second Coming???

What does the phrase, "Patience and Faith of the Saints." Which view teaches patience Pre-Trib or Post Trib? Which view teaches preparedness like the 5 virgins who brought extra oil not knowing how long they had to wait?

Follow up thoughts of the "RAPTURE" from previous post!

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