Follow up thoughts of the "RAPTURE" from previous post!

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

It is not right to divide the word if you are dividing it incorrectly and altering the clear PLAIN WORD.

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

We are to be comforted knowing that Christ is going to come and when He does, He will rescue us and save us. Our blessed hope is for Salvation. It isn't for the church per se. The rest of National Israel will be saved without ever being part of the "church." There are a lot of churches and many are not so great.

While we are on the subject of Paul's lesson, lets look a little further...

2 Thes 1:

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you see why God is repaying? For the tribulation the wicked have put us through.

Do you see when we get our rest? Is it at the Rapture? That's not what Paul says.

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

Bottom line is the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine was just schemed in 1830 and not even taught until around 1917. Of all the old hymns of the 1800s and early 1900s there isn't one song I can think of out of the 300 or so that we used to sing that had anything to do with the Rapture. Any songs dealing with the Return of Christ were always about the Post Trib Glorious Vengeful return.

Onward, Christian Soldiers

Text: Sabine Baring-Gould, 1834-1924
Music: Arthur S. Sullivan, 1842-1900

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before. Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe; forward into battle see his banners go!

At the sign of triumph Satan's host doth flee; on then, Christian soldiers, on to victory! Hell's foundations quiver at the shout of praise; brothers, lift your voices, loud your anthems raise. (Refrain)

Like a mighty army moves the church of God; brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod. We are not divided, all one body we, one in hope and doctrine, one in charity.[SIZE=+2]

The Battle Hymn of The Republic
Lyrics Julia Ward Howe Music William Steffe 1861[/SIZE]

Mine eyes have seen the glory
of the coming of the lord,
He is trampling out the vintage
where the grapes of wrath are stored,
He hath loosed his fateful lightning
of His terrible swift sword,
His truth is marching on.

I have read a fiery Gospel
writ in burnished rows of steel,
"As ye deal with My contemners
so with you My grace shall deal,"
Let the Hero born of woman
crush the serpent with His heel,
Since God is marching on

He has sounded forth the trumpet
that shall never call retreat,
He is sitting out the hearts of men
before His judgment seat,
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him!
Be jubilant, my feet,
Our God is marching on

Now why would the churches of the 1800s (before Darby contaminated them) have not ONE SONG about the Rapture and where all songs were about the victorious return where the saints come back and fight with the Lord? Isn't that funny?

PlainWord · Jun 11, 2014

He is trampling out the vintage
where the grapes of wrath are stored

This is what they were singing about Rev 19:

14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This has always been the understanding of the church for 1800+ years until about 100 years ago. Most churches now days don't even discuss prophesy as they don't want to offend.

Linda70 · Jun 11, 2014

That 1830 version of the "false" pre-tribualtion Rapture was "made up" by a Dave MacPherson:

Inventor of false pre-trib rapture history

Dave MacPherson is an individual who loves to hate pretribulationism. In fact, he has thought up new ways to express his distain for pretribulationism by fabricating a false history of the pre-trib rapture. For the last thirty-plus years, MacPherson has dedicated his life to full time rapture hating in an attempt to participate in anything that he believes will obstruct its spread.

A Great Conspiracy Theory?

MacPherson believes that the key elements of the doctrine of the pretribulational rapture originated with a young Scottish girl named Margaret Macdonald in Spring of 1830. This is the thesis put forth in a number of books and publications for over thirty years by MacPherson, a newsman turned rapture researcher. MacPherson's major book The Rapture Plot (Millennium III Publishers, 1994), is only one of the latest in a series of revisions of his original discourse The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin (Heart of America Bible Society, 1973). His books include the following: The Three Rs: Rapture, Revisionism, Robbery (P.O.S.T., 1998), The Great Rapture Hoax (New Puritan Library, 1983), Rapture? (New Puritan Library, 1987), The Incredible Cover-Up (Omega Publications, 1975), The Late Great Pre-Trib Rapture (Heart of America Bible Society, 1974).

Dave MacPherson is convinced that the popular Pre-Trib Rapture teaching of today was really instigated by a teenager in Scotland who lived in the early 1800's. (Hoax, p. 7.) If Christians had known all along, bemoans MacPherson concerning the historical beginnings of the pretrib rapture, the state of Christianity could have been vastly different today. (Hoax, p. 180). He does not think that this research has been mere historical oversight, but rather a well-orchestrated "cover-up" which has been carefully managed by clever pretrib leaders each step of the way, even alleging that Dallas Seminary was grooming and commissioning Hal Lindsey for the purpose of popularizing the pretrib rapture for the Jesus Movement in the early 70's. (Incredible Cover-Up, pp, 131-32). Jim McKeever, in the forward of the book, compares this pretrib cover-up to the Watergate cover-up. Before we get into the background of the pretrib rapture lets run a background check on MacPherson.

MacPherson's Background

MacPherson has dedicated his life to the cause of disrupting belief in the pretrib rapture, since, according to his interpretation, it has been the cause for great disruption in his own life. Back in 1953 I had a jolting encounter with the Rapture, is the opening sentence in MacPherson's Rapture Hoax (p. 3). This is a reference to his expulsion from a Christian College in California (BIOLA) for propagating views that conflicted with pretribulationism. He suggests that this experience was so devastating that it accounts for a setback in his Christian life. Because of his discouragement, MacPherson and a friend went out and got drunk in Mexico and passed out. MacPherson says this was a brush with death because of the many dangers that could befall someone in such a condition in Mexico. Later, he was involved in a wreck with a car while riding his motorcycle and almost lost his left arm. But these were not the beginning of his nor his familys troubles because of the pretrib rapture.

Robert L. Sumner has noted that MacPherson has a bad habit of attributing all kinds of personal tragedies to the pre-trib teaching: his mother's death, his sister's inability to have more children, his own failure to follow through on his calling as an evangelist, and other matters. (Looking For The Blessed Horrible Holocaust! A book review of The Late Great Pre-Trib Rapture in The Biblical Evangelist (May, 1975), p. 8.) Sumner cites another illustration of how paranoid he has become concerns his conclusion that his lovable dog, Wolf apparently became demon possessed just about the time MacPherson was about to write his first anti-pretribulation book, savagely biting his writing hand several times. (Hope? Or Hoax? The Biblical Evangelist (Feb., 1984), p. 7.)

Trials and tribulation due to the pretrib rapture seems to run in the MacPherson family. Dave's father, Norman, had planted a church in Long Beach, California and was doing quite well until a group of new people in the church caused a commotion over the timing of the rapture. Norman MacPherson was forced out of this prospering church because he had shifted from the pretrib to the posttrib view of the rapture. Norman S. MacPherson had authored posttrib books, Tell It Like It Will Be (privately printed, 1970), and Triumph Through Tribulation (by the author, 1944). He then started another, less successful church in Long Beach. Dave MacPherson displays a habit of blaming many of the personal tragedies in his life on the pretrib rapture teaching.

In 1983 MacPherson declared, Fifteen years ago I knew nothing about Pre-Trib beginnings. (Hoax, p. 47) He began his quest by writing to his father and received back an answer which indicated a lack of consensus among scholars, so I decided to do some research on my own. (Hoax, p. 47) MacPherson's investigation gathered steam when he found a rare book in 1971 by Robert Norton, The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861). The important part in Norton's book, claimed MacPherson, is a personal revelation that Margaret Macdonald had in the spring of 1830. (Hoax, p. 47) MacPherson uses this finding to project the notion that the source of the pretrib rapture is of demonic origin through a 15-year-old Scottish lassie.

For MacPherson, his calling in life is a crusade to develop and sharpen his theory and to propagate it around the world. Operating as would any covert agent in hostile, enemy territory, MacPherson has made many trips onto the enemy turf of pretrib colleges and seminaries in order to dispense his material. His campaigns have led him to travel around the country with his message of the hidden story of the genesis of the pretrib rapture, which he believes if people knew, the doctrine would virtually become extinct. This mission has taken him to such places as Dallas Seminary, the great stronghold of the pretribs, where he speaks of distributing literature informing naive pretribers concerning their heritage. (I have retrieved two of his clandestine flyers from library books at the seminary.) As another typical example, he once blitzed a bus of students from Jerry Falwell's college. John Walvoord has noted:

MacPherson made these charges against pretribulationism and then afterward went to great lengths to find historic verification. . . . Readers will be impressed that as a newsman MacPherson builds a strong case for his position, but will be less impressed when they begin to analyze what he has actually proved. (John F. Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation (Zondervan, 1979), pp. 42-43.)

Continued here:

MacPherson's Claims

I've heard this same story so many times, I could repeat it in my sleep. You guys will do ANYTHING...even attempt to connect the Battle Hymn of the Republic (a Civil War hymn by Julia Ward Howe--a Unitarian Universalist) to a post tribulation rapture. Also, the hymn Onward Christian Soldiers was not written about a post tribulation rapture. It was also a Civil War era hymn and the hymn writer, Sabine Baring-Gould, had spiritual warfare in mind, as described in Ephesians 6 of the New Testament, and in the second epistle of Paul to Timothy.

Maranatha!

Linda70 · Jun 11, 2014

PlainWord said:

You are incorrect about the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine. It was not "schemed in 1830" by J. N. Darby, but it was "made up" by Dave MacPherson back in the 1970s.

You are also incorrect about the hymns of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Here's one by Fanny Crosby (1820-1915) which she wrote (music) and words by William Kirkpatrick in 1898:

It is evident by the lyrics of many hymns written in the late 1800s and early 1900s, that the saints were expecting the imminent return of Christ for His Church.

PlainWord · Jun 13, 2014

Linda70 said:

That 1830 version of the "false" pre-tribualtion Rapture was "made up" by a Dave MacPherson:

I've heard this same story so many times, I could repeat it in my sleep. You guys will do ANYTHING...even attempt to connect the Battle Hymn of the Republic (a Civil War hymn by Julia Ward Howe--a Unitarian Universalist) to a post tribulation rapture. Also, the hymn Onward Christian Soldiers was not written about a post tribulation rapture. It was also a Civil War era hymn and the hymn writer, Sabine Baring-Gould, had spiritual warfare in mind, as described in Ephesians 6 of the New Testament, and in the second epistle of Paul to Timothy.

Maranatha!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

PlainWord · Jun 13, 2014

Linda70 said:

You are incorrect about the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine. It was not "schemed in 1830" by J. N. Darby, but it was "made up" by Dave MacPherson back in the 1970s.

You are also incorrect about the hymns of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Here's one by Fanny Crosby (1820-1915) which she wrote (music) and words by William Kirkpatrick in 1898:

It is evident by the lyrics of many hymns written in the late 1800s and early 1900s, that the saints were expecting the imminent return of Christ for His Church.

None of these songs provide a Pre-Trib timing just as none of the scriptures that you cite provide it.

Linda70 · Jun 13, 2014

PlainWord...

Everything you have posted in this thread and elsewhere on this forum has not convinced me of a Post tribulation rapture. The reason you don't see a pre-tribulation in Scripture is due to the fact that you are not looking for one. Your post-trib rapture teaching is more confusing than a book on advanced mathematics for engineers....and all of it is redundant.

You use Matthew 24 as one of your main "proof texts" for a post tribulation. You do not rightly divide because in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 and 1 Cor. 15:51-52 you have Paul contradicting Jesus.

Do you also not believe in a 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ in Jerusalem? Are you also an amillennialist?

PlainWord · Jun 13, 2014

Linda70 said:

Of course I believe in a 1,000 year reign with Jesus. My view is not confusing. It is simple and is exactly as the Bible tells it. I believe Jesus returns with an Army from heaven AFTER the Tribulation. He gathers His chosen Elect when He returns and they are with Him on Mt. Zion. Christ then defeats Satan and Satan is chained for 1,000 years. Christ and His Elect rule and reign for 1,000 years. Those who reign for the 1,000 years are those who were beheaded for Christ and did not receive the Mark of the Beast or worship Him (The martyred from the Tribulation). The rest of the dead did not live again until the 1,000 years were over as they are resting in heaven.

Satan is then released towards the end of the 1,000 years to deceive again. God then returns and brings all the dead in Jesus with Him and they are resurrected. This is when the resurrection for most believers occurs and not before. Those who are still alive and remaining after the 1,000 years are then transformed and don't face death. Satan and all evil is finally destroyed along with death. The new heaven and earth are established and we all live happily ever after.

PlainWord · Jun 13, 2014

The below passages give the correct order. Paul gives it and John confirms it.

1 Cor 15:

23 But each one in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His (God's) coming.

1. Christ
2. The Firstfruits of Christ, His Elect, the 144K
3. Those who are Christs at the coming of God

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

This totally agrees with Rev 14.

I'll shorten Rev 14 to make it easier to see:

1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

Please note above that Believers are still dying. Nobody is in a glorified bodies accept the Martyred Saints who came back with Christ.

Here comes your Rapture, the real one.

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Now here is the other part of it where everything that offends is removed.

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

PlainWord · Jun 14, 2014

Your view is the confusing one. You have Christ bouncing around like a pin ball. Coming to earth, snatching up people creating all kinds of accidents. You have graves opening up and people being resurrected also floating up in the sky. Then after this you have Christ returning to heaven with all these living and resurrected people. Apparently the purpose of this is to spare the Church the temptation of Satan and the wrath that God plans to pour out on the wicked earth.

Then you have a massive revival the likes the earth has never seen when Paul teaches a falling away before the Man of Sin. Now you have Satan coming to deceive who? The new Christians who have had no time to build faith. That seems like a fair fight. The poor new believers. They have Satan after them and they have to also face the Wrath of God. You have the Holy Spirit being taken away with the Church leaving these new Christians no chance.

In your mind God allows Satan to come and deceive brand new believers. Then God subjects them to His horrible wrath. Why? What is the purpose of that? Everything bad apparently is allowed to happen to these poor new believers. In your mind they get slaughtered.

Then you have Christ coming back all mad because Satan deceived brand new Christians and persecuted and beheaded them. Talk about confusing...

Linda70 · Jun 14, 2014

PlainWord said:

Wow...you sure enough have totally misrepresented and twisted up the biblical pre-tribulation rapture doctrine of the Church. Better go back to Eschatology 101. Nothing you have stated here even comes close to what God's Word says. All I have done is share what the Bible says, and all you have done is twist everything up because your desire is to be "in control" and demonstrate how correct you are in this post-tribulation doctrine.

PlainWord · Jun 14, 2014

Linda70 said:

HAHA. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You state doctrines where no scripture support can be found. For instance, you say the Lord comes before the tribulation. There is NO VERSE that states this. You state Christ takes living people (after translating them into spiritual bodies) to heaven. There is NO VERSE that states this.

You state that Dispensationalism is a doctrine of God. You believe in 7 dispensations where God's treatment of man changes over each dispensation. There is no teaching of 7 and there is no Biblical teaching that says the Dispensation of Grace ends at a Pre-Trib Rapture. This is an invention of man.

I have twisted nothing. I have no desire to show anyone up. I simply cite scripture and show you what it says. You cite a "rightly dividing" passage than alter the Bible to say whatever you want it to say based on the wrong interpretation from Timothy.

Let me ask you Linda, what other doctrines have you invented or altered using the rightly dividing principle or does it only apply to the Rapture? Thank God the way to salvation hasn't been altered yet. Oops, I guess it has because the Rapture doctrine teaches that if you miss the Rapture and have been left behind that you now cannot just ask to be saved instead you have to go back to the law and do specific commandments to earn your salvation.

But I don't let this disagreement affect the love I feel for my brothers and sisters in Christ. That is why I am trying my best to lovingly educate those who are interested in the truth.

PlainWord · Jun 14, 2014

FYI.

There are two major Biblical events or periods to come.

1. The Tribulation/Return of Christ
2. The Day the World Ends and the new heaven is established

Many people mistakenly think mostly every unfulfilled prophesy in the Bible deals with the Tribulation and the Return of Christ era. They forget that a much bigger event happens 1,000 years later and that is the End of the World when the old heaven and earth are dissolved and the new heaven and earth are established. It is this confusion or lack of understanding that has caused so many people to misinterpret prophesy. I am not saying this in a bad way just merely pointing out and cautioning that we need to put prophesy into the correct bucket relative to these two events.

Many insist that the main resurrection happens at the return of Christ. They are mistaken. Only a partial resurrection happens when Christ returns. If grandpa died and you expect to see him returning with Jesus, I don't want you to be disappointed. Grandpa and 2,000 years worth of dead believers are not coming back until God brings them after the millennium.

Rev 20: 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

John 6:
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:
24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

Last day is the Last Day. There is no other day after the Last Day!!!

Peter calls this LAST DAY - The Day of GOD.

2 Peter 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
Clearly Peter is talking about the end of the world here after the Millennium. So now look what Paul is discussing in 1 Thes 4:

1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Who is coming here, Jesus or God???

When is the main resurrection? On the Last Day. Thus if 1 Thes 4 belongs with 2 Peter 3, the rapture doctrine totally and utter collapses and is discredited. So it is no wonder why thus who support it will fight tooth and nail, twisting and altering scripture using man's doctrines in an effort to preserve it.

PlainWord · Jun 14, 2014

Dear Sister in Christ, Linda.

The Bible teaches that Jesus returns AFTER the tribulation. I teach the same. You teach He comes BEFORE.

The Bible teaches that the resurrection happens on the last day. I teach the same. You teach it happens some 1,000 years or 365,000 days before the real last day.

I take the literal teaching and teach it as it reads.

You apply a man-made doctrine of Dispensationalism to the Word and alter it into anything you want.

Who is twisting?? Me or you??

You are driven by the desire of your heart and not what the Word really says dear Sister. Please let the Word teach you and not man and not your desires.

Linda70 · Jun 15, 2014

PlainWord said:

The Bible teaches that there are two phases to the Second Advent. Jesus will come before and after the Tribulation:

RAPTURE: In a "moment" (Greek-"atom," a split-second, literally "uncut, indivisible," we divide and cut time into years and months and days and hours and minutes and seconds, but the smallest measure of time is an "atom" of time which we might call a split-second), in the blinking on an eye (1 Cor. 15:52). It is very sudden. It will happen before people will realize it is happening (even as it was with Enoch, (Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5). Philip is an example of a man being raptured away suddenly so as to be seen no more is found in Acts 8:39 (where the Greek word for rapture, harpazo, is used).

The Lord Jesus will surely come for His Church (John 14:3) but we do not know when. The rapture is imminent which means that He may come at any time.

The purpose of the Rapture is for Christ to receive His bride (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17).

SECOND ADVENT: Slow enough for people to realize and see what is happening (Matthew 24:27; Rev. 1:7; Psalm 2:2; Rev. 19:19). The second coming of Christ to the earth will be visible and obvious to all. No one will miss it.

The date of the second coming can be calculated to the very day. It will occur 2520 days (7 years, or 84 months, each month made up of 30 days) from the time that Antichrist makes a treaty with Israel (Daniel 9:27) and it will occur 1260 days (3½ years) from the time of the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15). Antichrist destroyed at 2nd coming (Revelation 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 13:5; 2 Thess. 2:8). Of course, this "known day" cannot be known or calculated by anyone until the treaty is signed (Dan. 9:27).

The purpose of the Second Advent is for Christ to receive His kingdom (Luke 19:22; Revelation 19-20)

The Bible does not teach that there is one general resurrection on the last day. The Bible teaches that there are two resurrections. (Daniel 12:1-2; John 5:29)

The First Resurrection

All saved people will be a part of the resurrection of life (the first resurrection). God will give each saved person a new resurrection body that will be perfectly designed for the believer to live in throughout eternity. This resurrection body is described in 1 Corinthians 15:35-54.

Those who take part in the first resurrection (saved people) are not all raised up at the same time. Who was the first Person to be raised up (1 Corinthians 15:23)? Christ is raised up first:

Christ is first (1 Corinthians 15:23).

The "dead in Christ" (members of the Church who have died) will be raised up at the time of the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52). Those Christians who are living on earth at the time of the rapture will also "be changed" and receive new bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

Old Testament believers will be raised up after the time of tribulation (about seven years after the rapture) according to Daniel 12:1-2. Believers who die during the tribulation will also be raised up at this time according to Revelation 20:4.

The Second Resurrection

All of the unsaved people will be part of the resurrection of damnation (or judgment), according to John 5:29. Those who take part in the second resurrection will all be raised at the same time. They will be raised to stand before the GREAT WHITE THRONE and before the HOLY GOD who sits upon it. This will include all the unsaved who have ever lived, from wicked Cain (1 John 3:12) to the last group of rebels described in Revelation 20:7-9. These people will be given a resurrection body that will be perfectly designed for hell so that they will be able to suffer the torments of the lake of fire forever (to suffer and to burn but to never be consumed in the burning).
I take the literal teaching and teach it as it reads.

Dispensational theology is NOT a man made theology and I am not altering ANYTHING I want. That is simply your perception because you reject dispensational theology. And if you reject dispensational theology, you do not rightly divide God's Word and do not believe that "things that are different are not the same."....as in making a definite distinction between Israel and the Church.

You are!

You have no clue what the "desire of my heart" is. I share the Word of God as I have learned it and believe it ---- for almost 40 years. You,on the other hand, are the one who is "driven" by your desire, in order to "convince" me that I am wrong and you are correct. Sorry, but I will not "buy into" your false post-tribulation rapture teaching. Therefore, I am going to "mark" you as one who is teaching "contrary to" the biblical doctrine I have learned and believed (for almost 40 years) and I am not going to respond to any more of your posts. (Romans 16:17)

konroh · Jun 15, 2014

I myself did the merry-go-round with Plainword. The problem is multifold. He actually believes an eschatological position that has no academic or otherwise verification. That is, it's an entirely new doctrine mixed and matched from multiple eschatological positions. It's not really post-trib rapture, for that is more classically defined. It's a consortium.

Plainword, I appreciate your desire, but you have to admit that you are reactionary against the pre-trib doctrine belief of your father and your childhood. What you propose cannot be found in any commentary, any magazine, any book written. It's a completely new view. Can't you admit that the Holy Spirit never works in pitting one person against all the others? The Holy Spirit never has new doctrines of the church occurring in isolation. However, Satan, the adversary, the messanger of light, constantly does.

PlainWord · Jun 15, 2014

konroh said:

The difference in our approaches is that you and Linda take the Pre-Trib doctrine (which you both adamantly defend) and force all other scripture to fit the doctrine regardless of how much it conflicts with the Word. For example, Christ tells us that He comes AFTER the tribulation. He NEVER tells us about any other visit or earlier timing. Rather than accepting Christ's own words, you rationalize them away by arguing that He was talking to Jews and since Jews are not going to be Raptured, He left it out, even though He told us that He told them "all things."

You take Darby, the Father of Dispensationalism, as the real authority to interpret scripture rather than just reading what the Bible actually says. You ignore multiple conflicts the Pre-Trib doctrine creates and take indefensible positions for these conflicts.

I on the other hand, actually READ and allow the Bible to teach me. I accept the clear meaning of the Word and if a conflict with any of my views are found, then I look for an alternative view that agrees with everything else. I don't approach the Bible with a view contrary to the Word and force everything to fit my view as you two do.

As for not agreeing with the majority of the so-called scholars I take comfort in the fact that the so called scholars during Jesus day were in fact the ones who were wrong. History repeats and there is nothing new under the sun.

My view as it stands today has no known conflicts with any scripture or Biblical truth where yours violates many long standing truths and principles. For instance, we are told we (the Church) will suffer tribulation, be killed and hated by all nations. We are told "through many tribulations (or trials and tests) will we enter the Kingdom of God. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere is this doctrine reversed or even suggested that the End Time church is to be spared.

So look under your bed dear brother before slinging your darts at me. Satan is the author of confusion, not God. If God was really going to send Jesus to rapture the Church, we would be taught this in no uncertain terms and not need to use Darby's logic to invent it.

PlainWord · Jun 15, 2014

I would like one of you Pre-Trib supporters to explain something in your hero Rapture passage to me.

1 Thes 4:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Why do you teach that Jesus brings the dead in Christ when it clearly states that God does the "bringing???"

This should be a big hint to you that this is not a Rapture passage, at least not one that has anything to do with the Tribulation era.

Follow up thoughts of the "RAPTURE" from previous post!

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Linda70

Guest

Linda70

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Linda70

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Linda70

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Linda70

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member