Follow up thoughts of the "RAPTURE" from previous post!

[PlainWord]

I've learned over the years that the key to understanding prophesy is to know which verses go together. If you can't discern this, understanding things are impossible. Just FYI. If you take a passage that deals with the end of the millennium just prior to the Final Eternal State and move it ahead of the Tribulation, then you are off by 1,000 years. This is what is happening with 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15. These passages belong with 2 Peter 3.

Mat 24 goes with 2 Thes 2. Both use the word, "gather" to describe the calling together of the Elect.

 

[LEPIDUS]

I think this is interesting verse 32

Joel 2:28-32 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. 29 Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my spirit. 30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

Why does it say survivors? In order to survive you need to go through some type of ordeal. Is it referring to the tribulation? I've come across other verses that indicate that in a sense. IDK just putting my 2cents and thoughts.

 

[konroh]

Yes, Plainword, Jesus is God. Wow, that was easy. I don't know if there can be dialogue anymore because everything you said about how you would interpret Scripture is exactly what Pre-tribbers would say--that we're only reading exactly what the passage says, that we differ so radically is unfortunate, but the fact that you resort to Darby-bashing and believe that it's good that no one agrees with you is not in your favor. The only possibility you have is to be like you think Darby was, you've invented a new doctrine, maybe in 200 years there will be people against your convoluted post-trib position resorting to Plain-word bashing. You can only hope.

I'm not disputing the passages with you. There have been pages of posts in months past where I've done that, I'm not sure you understand my arguments but they have been presented to you. The only thing I would be interested in talking to you about is how your relationship to God is, how active are you in your local church, are you being discipled and discipling others, are you growing in Christ?

 

[PlainWord]

Yes, Plainword, Jesus is God. Wow, that was easy. I don't know if there can be dialogue anymore because everything you said about how you would interpret Scripture is exactly what Pre-tribbers would say--that we're only reading exactly what the passage says, that we differ so radically is unfortunate, but the fact that you resort to Darby-bashing and believe that it's good that no one agrees with you is not in your favor. The only possibility you have is to be like you think Darby was, you've invented a new doctrine, maybe in 200 years there will be people against your convoluted post-trib position resorting to Plain-word bashing. You can only hope.

I'm not disputing the passages with you. There have been pages of posts in months past where I've done that, I'm not sure you understand my arguments but they have been presented to you. The only thing I would be interested in talking to you about is how your relationship to God is, how active are you in your local church, are you being discipled and discipling others, are you growing in Christ?

Actually, I am not teaching a new doctrine. It was the doctrine taught from 33 AD to 1830 AD and even beyond. Yours is the new doctrine my friend. As for Christ and God being one and the same, yes and no. Did God the Father die on the cross or was it God the Son?

As for my walk or activeness in my local church, so kind of you to ask. Yes in fact I am. My I ask the same and may I ask the relevance of the question? Are you implying that unless I twist and alter the clear Word of God the way that you do that I must be a bad Christian? I guess in your mind you can't be a good Christian unless you believe in a pre-trib rapture. If that's the criteria, I'm happy to walk in the truth and let you think I'm evil.

 

[Timeline]

I find it....strange that people believe that Jesus MUST come down to bring us back up. If I die tonight, I do not believe that my soul will be held in some sort of waiting room until Jesus returns. God took Enoch and Elijah up. I do not see how this is a problem. Is the power of God limited? - No! If He wants to take me right now, with or without my physical body, He can do it (although I do suppose that the physical body will be left behind). I am not saying that He will not come back, but I do believe that many of the scriptures used to draw this conclusion happened in the first century.

I also think that it is strange that people think that Jesus is going to physically come back down to earth to reign, in the flesh, for a thousand years. What is the Church? - It is the Body of Christ; And He is the Head. Was He not anointed? Is He not King, now! When did He become King?

Mark 11:10 Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David; Hosanna in the highest!”

John 12:1-19
Jesus, therefore, six days before the Passover, came to Bethany where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. [SUP]2 [/SUP]So they made Him a supper there, and Martha was serving; but Lazarus was one of those reclining at the table with Him. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Mary then took a pound of very costly perfume of pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped His feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, who was intending to betray Him, *said, [SUP]5 [/SUP]“Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?” [SUP]6 [/SUP]Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore Jesus said, “Let her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of My burial. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For you always have the poor with you, but you do not always have Me.”[SUP]9 [/SUP]The large crowd of the Jews then learned that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus’ sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He raised from the dead. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death also; [SUP]11 [/SUP]because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and were believing in Jesus.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]On the next day the large crowd who had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, [SUP]13 [/SUP]took the branches of the palm trees and went out to meet Him, and began to shout, “Hosanna! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel.”[SUP]14 [/SUP]Jesus, finding a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written, [SUP]15 [/SUP]“Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, your King is coming, seated on a donkey’s colt.”[SUP]16 [/SUP]These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]So the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of the tomb and raised him from the dead, continued to testify about Him. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For this reason also the people went and met Him, because they heard that He had performed this sign. [SUP]19 [/SUP]So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are not doing any good; look, the world has gone after Him.”

I am starting to sound like an amillennist (which, I am not). I haven't figured out all the details (though, I can spot problems with interpretations, including my own, most of the time), but I do not believe that there will be an earthly thousand year reign that will start/begin in the future.

As for God "rapturing" Christians so that they will not subjected to the tribulation, we see throughout the OT that He helped the Israelites. He gave them deliverance. But they were subjected to struggles.

We can read about the Exodus from Egypt. They were beaten, killed, subjected to harder labor - then they walked around in the desert/wilderness. Then they passed through the Red Sea. Then they roamed some more in the wilderness. Point is, God definitely helped them, but by no stretch of the imagination did He make their lives trouble free. We must endure. And yes, we can live without worry, by placing our lives in God's hands. But do not forget Job. Endure. Whatever life brings, whatever God allows to come your way, trust in Him. If our struggle brings about our death, then we will have been set "free from this body of death".

 

[PlainWord]

Timeline,

Over all a good post. The 1,000 year reign of Christ is a difficult topic, I agree. I actually had lunch with a pastor friend of mine who believes as you do that there is no 1,000 year reign. He thinks that when Jesus/God comes back it will be the end. He spiritualizes most of Revelation as do I but some of it has to be taken literally when it tends to agree with other passages.

I see Rev 20:4-6 as literal because they make sense and add up with other scripture. I am not 100% on this but here is the reason I do believe Christ returns first and reigns for 1,000 years then God returns then the end.

Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:10

both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Since all works are to be burned up on the Last Day then how can Rev 14 be explained? Rev 14 is the harvest chapter of Revelation. It gives the correct order of the harvest. We have Christ and the firstfruits (144K) harvested standing together on Mt. Zion. Christ appears to literally be standing on earth having returned. Then we see in verse 13 this:

"Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

Here we see that believers are still dying after Christ has returned and more importantly we see that their works are still following them, their works have not been burned up.

Peter tells us that a day to the Lord is as 1,000 years and vice versa. We have the term, DAY OF THE LORD, which appears throughout the Bible. Events described during this "Day" can't possibly happen in one literal day. Then there is Hosea 6:

1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. 2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight.

I believe the two days mentioned here represent the nearly 2,000 years that Israel was scattered from AD 70 to 1948. If this is correct then sometime during the next 1,000 years Israel will be living in the sight of God.

We agree that the Pre-Trib Rapture is utter nonsense with absolutely ZERO Biblical support. I believe there is a coming Great Tribulation and the purpose is to test and refine the church just as Israel will be tested and refined. Satan does the testing. He's is or was in heaven accusing the brethren day and night. Just as it was with Job, God will allow Satan to test the church. Just as it was with Christ in the wilderness, Satan will tempt the church to bow down and worship him as God.

 

[dcontroversal]

PlainWord,

I'll make this brief.

First of all, I never use red font---therefore, I don't know why that font is in red, but it's not the way I post. The only time I use red font is when I post the words of Christ Scriptures, but I don't ever use the bright red, I use the "brick" red color.

Secondly, the Great Tribulation IS the wrath of God....it is also called the Day of the Lord 26 times in 24 verses in the OT, beginning in Isaiah 2:12 through Malachi 4:5, and 5 times in 5 verses in the NT, beginning in Acts 2:20 through 2 Peter 3:10. The Great Tribulation is also called the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7), and the day of His wrath (Psalms 110:5; Isaiah 13:6-13; Revelation 6:17). The Great Tribulation is expressly called the day of God's wrath. Today the Lord is withholding His anger; He is seated upon a throne of grace, but the day approaches when He will take the seat of judgment. Then "the day of his wrath" will be upon all the world (Psalms 110:5; Isaiah 13:6-13; Revelation 6:17).

Satan is not behind the Rapture doctrine, and whoever teaches this is deceived and deceiving others. The Rapture is a biblical doctrine.

You missed on the bolded above Linda...I suggest a study of the words (thilipsis) and (orge) and who gets what as the great TRIBULATION is NOT THE WRATH of GOD.

 

[Linda70]

The entire 7 year tribulation IS the WRATH OF GOD. You guys need to study Scriptures, especially the book of Revelation and the Old Testament prophets. Have you really checked it out? Or are you just "throwing" around your so-called knowledge of Greek? Who, in Revelation 5 & 6 is opening the judgment seals?

Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Revelation 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Revelation 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Revelation 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Revelation 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Revelation 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Revelation 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Revelation 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It certainly isn't Satan opening those judgment seals....verses 16 and 17 of chapter 6 describes this period as the "the wrath of the Lamb (Jesus Christ) and "the great day of his (Jesus Christ) of is wrath". Therefore it is you guys who are incorrect when you say this tribulation period is not the "wrath of God"! No, I didn't "miss on the bolded"....you did...and it is you folks who are denying that the tribulation is the wrath of God, who need to study more. Do you fear God's wrath and judgment?....you should.

BTW, the Greek word for wrath used in Chapter 6:16-17 is OGRE

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3709. orge

from 3713; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:--anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

 

[Linda70]

In addition to my previous post #148....the parallel passage describing these seal judgments is Matthew 24:4-14

 

[GaryA]

I don't know if there can be dialogue anymore because everything you said about how you would interpret Scripture is exactly what Pre-tribbers would say--that we're only reading exactly what the passage says, ...

PRE-TRIBBERS:

The problem is --- Pre-Tribbers are not reading exactly what the passage says --- they only think they are...

And, I say this based on the fact that I used to be a Pre-Tribber myself. I was raised with the 70th-week-of-Daniel 7-year-tribulation-period teaching, with the 'Rapture' occurring before that 7-year tribulation period and the 'Second Coming' occurring after that same 7-year tribulation period.

"But now I can see both sides of this thing..."

And, I am telling you now - with all manner of confidence in the knowledge of the truth in this matter - and with all of the sincere Christian love that I can put into attempting to help you to become aware - that "the whole pre-trib rapture thing" is a LIE of Satan!

To recognize this lie for what it truly is, you MUST be willing to [at least temporarily] "set aside" or "suspend" everything you know ( or think you know ) about biblical prophecy and look at what the Bible actually says.

I think of the Pre-Trib Rapture teaching like a table - the legs of which are the "props" that hold it up. And, in the case of this particular illustration, the legs also have bracing to hold each other up. However, as you remove the legs - one by one - out from under the table, the table and everything on it falls - the whole thing "crumbles"...

All of the following notions are part of the "structure" that holds up that table. NONE of them are actually biblical:

~ The '70th Week of Daniel' is "separated" from the other 69 weeks.
~ The '70th Week of Daniel' represents a 7-year Tribulation Period.
~ The Tribulation Period will be 7 years long.
~ There will be two more "comings" of Christ.
~ The Rapture will occur before the Tribulation Period.
~ The Rapture will occur 'in secret'.
~ The Temple will be rebuilt. ( "according to prophecy" )
~ The Anti-Christ will make a 7-year peace treaty with Israel.
~ After 3.5 years, the Anti-Christ will break the treaty with Israel.
~ There will be a wedding, a supper, and a judgment in heaven during the 7-year Tribulation Period.

These notions come from the misinterpretation of scripture. The 70 weeks of Daniel "came and went" - unbroken - in a single continuous span of 490 years. Fulfilled. Done. Christ Himself fulfilled the 70th week part of the prophecy. The ministry of Christ took place during the first half of the 70th week. He was crucified in the middle of the 70th week. The bible does not indicate the exact length of the 'Great Tribulation' period.

I know you think you have been taught the truth about the Rapture and the End Times scenario...

"But I promise you, you have not..."

What does this passage actually say? :

Matthew 24:

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It does not get any more straight-forward than this.

Do you not agree that verse 30 is describing the return of Christ?

Do you not agree that verse 31 is describing the Rapture?

Does it not indicate very plainly that the descriptions in verses 30-31 occur after the tribulation?

What tribulation? What days? Matthew 24:21 indicates that it is the 'Great Tribulation'.

According to the pre-trib rapture teaching - Jesus comes before the tribulation period "in the clouds" and "in secret" - and, then, after the tribulation period - He comes "with power and great glory" -- What does this verse say?

Jesus comes "in the clouds of heaven" AND "with power and great glory" -- at the same time - in the same coming.

"Food for thought...?"

Is this passage saying that - "immediately after the tribulation, Christ will return"...???

NO - it is not.

I say this to make a point about how people do not pay attention to what the scriptures actually say.

What does it actually say?

It says that - "immediately after the tribulation ---- shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"...!

In my study of the End Times Scenario, I have discovered / determined that there are at least 3.5 years between the end of the 'Great Tribulation' and the return of Christ.

The point being - people tend to think that the time frame in this passage of scripture ( not to mention many others ) is very short - almost instantaneous -- and they are wrong -- because they are not paying attention to what the scriptures actually say...

They have been taught what to believe by a "ritualistic, traditions-of-men mentality" -- and NOT by the Holy Spirit.

NOW --- before you let your PRIDE get all out of control...

This is not about me.

I am not making any special claims.

I am nothing and nobody, and I know it.

This is about the Word of God.

It is not me that I want you to listen to.

It is the Word of God that I want you to listen to.

When YOU decide that YOU would MUCH RATHER [ really, actually ] know the truth ( with true humility ) -- than to feed your PRIDE in appearing like you know the truth -- and you are willing to swallow your PRIDE - and, with humility, search the scriptures to know what they actually say ( and not what you were taught to believe - albeit, by well-intentioned people who were also taught as you were, etc. ) --- you will begin to understand more clearly what the Bible says very clearly.

Until then, you will continue to be blinded by Satan and your own stubborn human PRIDE.

The choice is yours...

Just remember --- my words - and your reaction --- will "come again" --- on Judgment Day.

"Make it a good one!"

 

[GaryA]

The entire 7 year tribulation IS the WRATH OF GOD.

"No, it is not..."

 

[just-me]

As sure as God made little green apples... The Rapture will happen . And as prophecy goes it will be quicker then most people think, and when you see these things taking place upon the earth look up for behold I come. Enjoy.

One must take this into account.
Daniel 7:21
I beheld , and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Revelation 3:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken :
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other .

 

[Timeline]

Timeline,

Over all a good post. The 1,000 year reign of Christ is a difficult topic, I agree. I actually had lunch with a pastor friend of mine who believes as you do that there is no 1,000 year reign. He thinks that when Jesus/God comes back it will be the end. He spiritualizes most of Revelation as do I but some of it has to be taken literally when it tends to agree with other passages.

I see Rev 20:4-6 as literal because they make sense and add up with other scripture. I am not 100% on this but here is the reason I do believe Christ returns first and reigns for 1,000 years then God returns then the end.

Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:10

both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Since all works are to be burned up on the Last Day then how can Rev 14 be explained? Rev 14 is the harvest chapter of Revelation. It gives the correct order of the harvest. We have Christ and the firstfruits (144K) harvested standing together on Mt. Zion. Christ appears to literally be standing on earth having returned. Then we see in verse 13 this:

"Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

Here we see that believers are still dying after Christ has returned and more importantly we see that their works are still following them, their works have not been burned up.

Peter tells us that a day to the Lord is as 1,000 years and vice versa. We have the term, DAY OF THE LORD, which appears throughout the Bible. Events described during this "Day" can't possibly happen in one literal day. Then there is Hosea 6:

1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. 2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight.

I believe the two days mentioned here represent the nearly 2,000 years that Israel was scattered from AD 70 to 1948. If this is correct then sometime during the next 1,000 years Israel will be living in the sight of God.

We agree that the Pre-Trib Rapture is utter nonsense with absolutely ZERO Biblical support. I believe there is a coming Great Tribulation and the purpose is to test and refine the church just as Israel will be tested and refined. Satan does the testing. He's is or was in heaven accusing the brethren day and night. Just as it was with Job, God will allow Satan to test the church. Just as it was with Christ in the wilderness, Satan will tempt the church to bow down and worship him as God.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

I guess my question would be, "How do we breakdown this scripture?"

The heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements (of heaven?) will be destroyed with intense heat.

What are "the heavens"? Can the heavens be destroyed with intense heat, literally. Is this Heaven as we think of it, or something else altogether? What are "the elements"? Do scriptures that refer to God being a fire have anything to do with it? Does scripture refer to the Holy Spirit as fire; or being like fire? When 1 Corinthians 3:15 says that a man's work may burned up, does it mean physical fire burning tangible works?

 

[konroh]

Plainword, you even twist my simple reaching out to you. I'm honestly asking about how your Christian life is, maybe it's possible to have dialogue with you on that, but you just continue to be wrong on so many points. First off, the post-tribulational theory is not something that has been around since AD 30 to 1830, it is itself only a few hundred years old itself, and NO ONE teaches it the way you present it. Absolutely no one. You cannot find one person in 2000 years of church history, scholar or otherwise that believes the way you do. I absolutely challenge you to find ONE PERSON THAT BELIEVES THE WAY YOU DO WITH PUBLIC DOCUMENTATION. Not one person that you may have convinced, but one person besides yourself that believes all of the eschatology that you believe. ONE PERSON, JUST ONE, ONE!!!!!

 

[konroh]

Is this passage saying that - "immediately after the tribulation, Christ will return"...???

NO - it is not.

YES, yes it is.

Jesus coming in the clouds with power and great glory is the 2nd coming.

Us meeting Christ in the air in the clouds is the Rapture, it's not secret, it's loud and spectacular, but there are no signs preceding it, unlike the 2nd coming. So it's very likely that many won't understand what has happened. No one should say it's "secret" like it's a whisper, but it very well may be "secret" like not everyone will understand what has happened.

 

[konroh]

What are "the heavens"? Can the heavens be destroyed with intense heat, literally. Is this Heaven as we think of it, or something else altogether? What are "the elements"? Do scriptures that refer to God being a fire have anything to do with it? Does scripture refer to the Holy Spirit as fire; or being like fire? When 1 Corinthians 3:15 says that a man's work may burned up, does it mean physical fire burning tangible works?

It seems the sky and the abode of heaven will be destroyed to be recreated.

The elements are the building blocks of the physical heaven and earth as we know it.

God is a consuming fire, but that refers to burning up His enemies and possibly also burning the sin out of us in the present time.

The Holy Spirit baptizes with fire, He is a purifier, He convicts of sin, also the first baptism of the Spirit there were tongues of fire above those baptized.

1 Cor 3:15 refers to a burning up or testing of the eternal value of our works, it is a figurative illustration. Our works can have lasting value--like precious stones, or they can be of only temporal worth, selfish and with no lasting effect, like wood that is burned and gone. We will be rewarded for works of lasting value.

 

[Linda70]

Since we are speaking about fire, this passage from 2 Peter 3 came to mind:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Now back to the topic...

 

[Timeline]

I know that you do not agree with Preterists, but when you ask about the "Rapture" - there are many things to consider. All things should be considered. Isolating one point, in my opinion, greatly restricts ones ability to understand. I personally believe that the rapture wasn't what people have made it into. And that it happened in the first century. I do, of course, realize that I may be wrong. Who would I think myself to be if I thought I had all the right answers and that everybody else is wrong. But each man/woman is bound by the limitations of their own mind (outside of guidance by the Holy Spirit) to understand scripture.

I believe that the Church is the bride of Jesus - the New Jerusalem. And that the we are in the New Heaven and New Earth. So, even if you don't agree, you can see how that might change my understanding of the "Rapture".

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort one another with these words.


And how I might read, "WE who are ALIVE and REMAIN" a little differently than you do. What happened to the dead that rose and went into Jerusalem at the crucifixion? Were they taken up? Did they die again?

 

[konroh]

They are the "dead in Christ." The point is exactly that Paul didn't want the Thessalonians to be worried about those who had already died, they will rise first with a resurrection body. Imagine how "imminent" the Thessalonians thought Jesus' coming was that they were worried about their Christian brethren who had already died in approximately only one generation since Jesus' death.

 

[Timeline]

They are the "dead in Christ." The point is exactly that Paul didn't want the Thessalonians to be worried about those who had already died, they will rise first with a resurrection body. Imagine how "imminent" the Thessalonians thought Jesus' coming was that they were worried about their Christian brethren who had already died in approximately only one generation since Jesus' death.

As we see in the other letters of the NT, they seemed to think it would happen soon as well. I guess the Holy Spirit inspired writers of the NT were wrong too.