It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Atwood]

Your problem is you don't want to do anything

NewB,
first of all let me apologize for making a joke which you may not have understood, not being an American. I was doing a little parody on a traditional American folk song, O My Darlin' Clementine.

oh my darling clementine - YouTube

Are you a Dr. Who fan? He was stuck at the embointment between E Space & N Space, wanting to get thru the pin point intersection of E Space to enter N Space & "get back home." The dimensions were collapsing all the time. What was once 100 yards, was seen soon to be 50 yards, etc. A local Thrall told him to do nothing. So then Dr. Who started doing all kind so random things, as if doing nothing meant doing something. Episode called Warrior's Gate.

Eventually he was squeezed through as the dimensions reduced to 0, tho he could have killed himself with his random activities.

Or maybe you are a Star Trec fan where the Capt & others perhaps were imprisoned in individual force field beams. The Capt tried to fight his way out, but the beam was drawing its energy from him, so the more energy he expended the stronger the prison field was. Spock figured this out & did nothing. When he absolutely did nothing, the force field evaporated, & he suddenly slipped out.

Now the point of Hebrews around ch 4 is that we must rest from our works and trust the Lord to be saved. At Kadesh Barnea Israel was supposed to enter the promised land. But they believed the bad spies: "There are giants in the land." So they could not enter because of their unbelief.

Sometimes in the OT God tells them to do nothing & watch Him work.
Now that is the way it is with salvation. WE trust the Lord. That is doing the work of God, doing nothing & trusting.
that is for salvation. We let Him remake us into new creatures. After that, we are enabled to do good works. God gets the glory that way. When you frustrate grace, you frustrate a major purpose for man's creation, to demo that attribute of God called grace.

The reason why an unsaved man can do nothing to get saved is that he is totally depraved, as Rom 1-3 describes him. Moreover, the Lord Jesus did it all for us in His death & resurrection. It is finished.

REST

Wherefore, even as the Holy Spirit saith,
To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation,
Like as in the day of the trial in the wilderness,
Where your fathers tried me by proving me,
And saw my works forty years.
Wherefore I was displeased with this generation,
And said, They do always err in their heart:
But they did not know my ways;
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest.
. . .
To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
. . .
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.
Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience, he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before),
To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts.


For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience."

The Rest of Faith in the Lord Jesus is required for salvation.
We must trust Him with our eternal destiny.

 

[Atwood]

garbage there is no middle ground if you shrinkback it is to where you were before,therefore those who shrink back were in Christ and those who remain in Christ(don't shrinkback) must have faith unto the end. Plain and simple[/QUOTE]

NewB,

You really have to refrain from making things up.
The text explains it, those who have faith which brings salvation, do not shrink back to perdition. The text says nothing about them having been in Christ. You make that up. You may not impose an unnecessary interpretation on shrink back against the plain statement of the Bible to the contrary. But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Neither did I say anything about middle ground. But it is possible to be an "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian," and not go through with trusting Christ as Savior.

And what of the numerous posters on this board who would say that they believe in Jesus, but when it gets right down to it, they do not trust Him with their eternal destiny. Yet they would argue about losing salvation, when they never had it to start with for their hard heart that won't trust Him.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Rom 2:7 Canard Nothing to Do with Eternal Security

Did you even read the scripture I posted and why I posted it? After all of your posts I've read I still don't understand your stance on this issue. I'm presuming you support Atwoods new doctrine that he is teaching. Its Calvinism madeover. It was never taught by the early church fathers, but whatever.

2 Corinthians 4:4 New American Standard Bible
in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

As a matter of fact, it would appear that numerous "church fathers" believed in eternal security even to the extreme of universalism. Now what percent of those old boys were heretics, Arians, monophysites? Was there not a time when about the only leader who believed both the Trinity & the dual natures of Christ (in one person) was Athanasius (Contra Mundum).

The early church had loads of heretics. So lets stick to the Bible.

Some of you guys seem obsessed with Calvin. I am tempted to find an Eastern Orthodox theologian and accuse you of following him all the time. Sinnner, what I teach is standard Evangelical Christian doctrine such as is popularly believed in the USA (not to include Charismatics/Penetcostals). Wake up & smell the evangelical coffee. So if you are a Trinitarian, I should bad-mouth you as a Calvinist, since Calvin believed the Trinity. You waste time on Calvin. Settling election & predestination is not required in order to understand eternal security. Real Christians disagree on how to interpret those issues.

For crying outloud, just trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior.
His grace has planned it all, it's yours just to believe.
Trust Him with your eternal destiny.

 

[newbirth]

NewB,
first of all let me apologize for making a joke which you may not have understood, not being an American. I was doing a little parody on a traditional American folk song, O My Darlin' Clementine.

oh my darling clementine - YouTube

Are you a Dr. Who fan? He was stuck at the embointment between E Space & N Space, wanting to get thru the pin point intersection of E Space to enter N Space & "get back home." The dimensions were collapsing all the time. What was once 100 yards, was seen soon to be 50 yards, etc. A local Thrall told him to do nothing. So then Dr. Who started doing all kind so random things, as if doing nothing meant doing something. Episode called Warrior's Gate.

Eventually he was squeezed through as the dimensions reduced to 0, tho he could have killed himself with his random activities.

Or maybe you are a Star Trec fan where the Capt & others perhaps were imprisoned in individual force field beams. The Capt tried to fight his way out, but the beam was drawing its energy from him, so the more energy he expended the stronger the prison field was. Spock figured this out & did nothing. When he absolutely did nothing, the force field evaporated, & he suddenly slipped out.

Now the point of Hebrews around ch 4 is that we must rest from our works and trust the Lord to be saved. At Kadesh Barnea Israel was supposed to enter the promised land. But they believed the bad spies: "There are giants in the land." So they could not enter because of their unbelief.

we believe and have entered into his rest and have ceased from our own works ...not his works

Sometimes in the OT God tells them to do nothing & watch Him work.
Now that is the way it is with salvation. WE trust the Lord. That is doing the work of God, doing nothing & trusting.
that is for salvation. We let Him remake us into new creatures. After that, we are enabled to do good works. God gets the glory that way. When you frustrate grace, you frustrate a major purpose for man's creation, to demo that attribute of God called grace.

The reason why an unsaved man can do nothing to get saved is that he is totally depraved, as Rom 1-3 describes him. Moreover, the Lord Jesus did it all for us in His death & resurrection. It is finished.

How could doing nothing be be the work of God? How do you let him remake you? we are enabled to do good works ? ...like a robot?
Are we not saved by grace any more? through faith in Christ the word of God.
[h=3]1 Peter 2:1-3[/h]King James Version (KJV)

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.



REST

Wherefore, even as the Holy Spirit saith,
To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation,
Like as in the day of the trial in the wilderness,
Where your fathers tried me by proving me,
And saw my works forty years.
Wherefore I was displeased with this generation,
And said, They do always err in their heart:
But they did not know my ways;
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest.
. . .
To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
. . .
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.
Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience, he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before),
To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts.


For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience."

The Rest of Faith in the Lord Jesus is required for salvation.
We must trust Him with our eternal destiny.

No offence taken brother but your teachings are not biblical

 

[konroh]

I like the Dr. Who & Star Trek analogies but I think relying on God and entering His rest is not necessarily a "do nothing" proposition. The Israelites believed and celebrated the Passover, but then they didn't believe that after God had overcome one superpower in Egypt that He could help them overcome the Canaanites, they shrunk back. What God wanted them to do was not "do nothing" He wanted them to trust Him. While I agree that trust sometimes means doing nothing--like the fact that I don't work to enter heaven, Christ has done that--I also think that trust is sometimes active, I actively believe God and then rest in His rest.

 

[Atwood]

Aptharsia: Incorruptible Salvation; Eternal Security

APHTARSIA = INCORRUPTIBLIBITY

OSS = Once Saved, Saved
The realization that if a man is saved, he is in fact saved!
Eternal Security

If some persons love the Lord Jesus with an incorruptible love, then they must be eternally secure; for if they could became "unsaved," their love would not be incorruptible, but corruptible.

BDAG Lexicon abbridged:
ἀφθαρσία the state of not being subject to decay/dissolution/interruption,incorruptibility, immortality 1 Cor 15:42, 50, 53f;


As a quality of the future life
(w. ζωή) 2 Ti 1:10; [Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,. . .
(w. δόξα, τιμή) ἀ. ζντεῖν Ro 2:7;
—ἀγαπᾶν . . . ἐν ἀφθαρσίᾳ . . . Eph 6:24 [Grace be with all them who love our Lord Jesus Christ with a love incorruptible.]
Tit 2:7 v.l.

----------------
ἄφθαρτος pert. to imperviousness to corruption and death,imperishable, incorruptible, immortal
Ro 1:23; 1 Ti 1:17;. . .
Of the resurrected body 1 Cor 15:52.
στέφανος 1 Cor 9:25;
κληρονομία 1 Pt 1:4; [incorruptible inheritance]
σπορά vs. 23; . . . [NA27-T]
[1Pet. 1:23 having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and abides.]

—Subst. τὸ ἄ. . . . [the incorruptible quality]
ἐν τῷ ἀ. τοῦ πραέως πνεύματοςw.the incorruptible quality of a gentle spirit

----------------
1 Cor 15:42, 50, 53f
["So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:" -- flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. -- For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting? The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.]

 

[Atwood]

Given Before Times Eternal. Does 2 Timothy 1 Imply Eternal Security?

What do you think? Does the Lord in 2 Tim 1 teach us that if we were going to be saved, this was already settled before times eternal? Does 2 Tim 1 thus imply eternal security?

"Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of
God; who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but
according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, but now has been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,"

 

[Atwood]

entering His rest is not necessarily a "do nothing" proposition.

So entering rest means do something? Can you not see that to be saved requires you to rest from your works.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, not of works lest anyone should boast. Are anyone's ears so dull of hearing that they brush off the commandment to give diligence to enter that rest?

You may call trusting the Lord doing something if you wish, but essentially it is resting.

The Israelites believed and celebrated the Passover, but then they didn't believe that after God had overcome one superpower in Egypt that He could help them overcome the Canaanites, they shrunk back. What God wanted them to do was not "do nothing" He wanted them to trust Him. While I agree that trust sometimes means doing nothing--like the fact that I don't work to enter heaven, Christ has done that--I also think that trust is sometimes active, I actively believe God and then rest in His rest.

Believing or trusting the Lord is the opposite pole to works. You may speak of it as an action in your spirit if you wish. But the sinner is like a drowning man who needs to rest and let the lifeguard save him. You may as well get out a set of oil paints and try to help the Mona Lisa painting, add eyebrows, etc.

It is clear that the mass of Israelites did not believe, did not trust YHWH as their Savior. They went along. Sometimes they had a superficial factual belief (like demons who believe that God is one). Num 14 " And Jehovah said unto Moses, How long will this people despise me? and how long will they not believe in me, for all the signs which I have wrought among them?

As a matter of fact at Kadesh Barnea, after the report of the spies, they disbelieved, but then did do something. After God told them they could now not enter, they tried to go forward and enter without Gods power, & they were sounded whupped by enemies.

Here is the story of men who would not rest in YHWH and trust Him, but decided they would do something:

And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had spied out . . .


And all the congregation lifted up their voice, and cried; and the people wept that night. And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would that we had died in this wilderness! . . .


And they said one to another, Let us make a captain, and let us return into Egypt. . . .
all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of YHWH appeared in the tent of meeting unto all the children of Israel.


And Jehovah said unto Moses, How long will this people despise me? and how long will they not believe in me, for all the signs which I have wrought among them? . . .


surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, . . .
Now the Amalekite and the Canaanite dwell in the valley: to-morrow turn ye, and get you into the wilderness by the way to the Red Sea. . . .


ut as for you, your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness. And your children shall be wanderers in the wilderness forty years, . . .


And Moses told these words unto all the children of Israel: and the people mourned greatly. And they rose up early in the morning, and gat them up to the top of the mountain, saying,
Lo, we are here, and will go up unto the place which Jehovah hath promised: for we have sinned. And Moses said, Wherefore now do ye transgress the commandment of Jehovah, seeing it shall not prosper? Go not up, for Jehovah is not among you; that ye be not smitten down before your enemies. For there the Amalekite and the Canaanite are before you, and ye shall fall by the sword: because ye are turned back from following Jehovah, therefore Jehovah will not be with you. But they presumed to go up to the top of the mountain: nevertheless the ark of the covenant of Jehovah, and Moses, departed not out of the camp. Then the Amalekite came down, and the Canaanite who dwelt in that mountain, and smote them and beat them down, even unto Hormah.

 

[newbirth]

Re: Given Before Times Eternal. Does 2 Timothy 1 Imply Eternal Security?

Again brother you seem to be missing the point big time same verse...saved us and called us... with a holy calling, not according to our works, but .....
according to his own purpose and grace,

look at verse 10 and 11 ...
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

There is work in the kingdom brother and every worker must be prepared by the gospel.

[h=3]Ephesians 6:14-16[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

You seem obsessed with salvation which God has taken care of and have refused to grow in Christ because it involves work

[h=3]Hebrews 6:1-3[/h]King James Version (KJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.

 

[homwardbound]

what is a man's limit when he is dead ...I am nothing I claim no glory weather I stand or fall live or die God's word is true and that is what I will speak,but it is good of you to remind a brother since one can get puffed up...So I give God praise for you and may he bless you abundantly in all things.

And you as well, we are all growing in truth fro9m God who does the separating of truth and error, there are many things I used to stick to as truth, being in bondage and trying to be free

Then I read about how the truth is to set me free and be free indeed. I then asked God why am I still in bondage then, wanting to not do and doing anyway as Paul describes in Romans 7.
I heard I am not free because I have error in my truth, and not God's.
So I began the process, of rethinking all truth that I was dogmatically, argumentatively holding onto, thus seeing how my own sin nature that I was born in tricked me, into doing good works to get.
When in truth that is not what it is about after the cross of Christ our propitiation for all sin, and this includes all people a mercy sacrifice from Father in love to us all.

It is in essence a crossing over, a waving of one's white flag in "I" give up. Which this world teaches to never give up and fight and fight, all of flesh nature to be in control as if we are God

I am the creation, not the creator, and so I gave up my God-hood and turned me over to God to do with me what God sees fit. And by this I am not in bondage, I am free and shout it from the roof tops, the same as Martin Luther King when he said, "I see the light" after all those years of strife and worry, all those tribulations and troubles trying to get there, he fi9nally saw through. unfortunately he was killed, for that is waht the ene3my does tries to shut those that see through and are out of bondage
I am by no means trying to say I know it all. Yet I do know this when you get it down pat that God just love you, you will see the light, and walk as Christ walked in love to all
Thanks Brother

 

[Alligator]

Re: Old Water Baptism Canard: Water Baptism Does Not Save.

1) The Lord Jesus died before the thief died. The law ended with Christ's death. So the thief did not die under the Law.

2) There is only 1 way to be saved in all the Bible, faith in YHWH, as with Abraham, saved before circumcision (which doesn't equal baptism anyway). After revelation was received on the Trinity, faith must be in the 2nd person of the Trinity, a bit of a refinement in the requirement.

3) Water baptism was done with John the Baptist, and the Lord Jesus had persons water baptized during his ministry.

4) The Lord Jesus submitted to baptism to fulfill all righteousness, long before He died and rose.

5) The prophecy was that while John baptized with water, the Lord Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.
6) In Acts 1 the Baptism of the Spirit was predicted to happen soon.

7) On Pentecost Acts 2 Baptism of the Spirit occurred, forming the Church, the Body of Christ.

Heb 9 doesn't say anyone is saved by baptism.

The few times that baptism is associated with salvation are rare. In none of them is water mentioned. Since salvation is offered only for faith/believing so many, many time, water baptism cannot be essential as an act of man to secure salvation. Human works are specifically excluded (Eph 2).

Spirit baptism can be understood to be salvific, but it is not something a man chooses; it is always done to the believer (1 Cor 12:13), done by God.

Dear audience:

If any of you trust your water baptism for salvation, you need to repent of trusting in human work and trust the Lord Jesus for your eternal destiny.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

What He says is "Believe on the Lord Jesus [Christ], and you shall be saved."
I have done that.

"What must we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."



Prove that one. The Lord Jesus baptized during his earthly ministry through His disciples. How could anything the Lord Jesus does be not officially effective? Everything He did was officially effective.



Yes he qualified, "This day you shall be with me in Paradise." Men called on the name of YHWH and believed in Him all through the OT -- they qualified by grace. I have done my homework. Have you? Like me have you read the Bible over and over and spent a year marking all the references to salvation in the Bible?

Spirit Baptism is accounted for in 1 Cor 12:13. It comes to every believer, ALL.
It puts us in the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is the Church against which the gates of Hades do not prevail. It still exists. To get in, you have to be baptized of the Spirit.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

Compare Rom 6 where it speaks of baptized into Christ (not into water).


We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?


I think you need some more verses where faith/belief saves by itself (no baptism). You already have had a pile posted at you.

Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Now you can go back & look again at the verses from Romans & Galatians

It is clear that water baptism is not an essential human action to salvation, since it is left out in the multitude of faith/believe only passages.

1. The point is the thief on the cross was FORGIVEN by
Christ before His death and while the Mosaic law was still in effect.
2. That's right, there is only one way. But it is not the way you prescribed.
3. John's baptism was temporary & to bring us to Christ. It is not the same baptism that Christ required when He sent the apostles on the great commission in Matthew chapter 28.
4. That's right, but Christ's baptism was not for the remission of sins. It was for different purpose as you stated.

5. Christ is the only one who could baptize in the Holy Spirit. So this proves, since he is not here on earth today, but water baptism and not I Holy Spirit baptism is the baptism of the great commission.

6. Yes
7. Yes

when I say the thief did not qualify, I was referring to his needing to be baptized. He qualified for salvation because Christ ap
said this day you will be with me in paradise.

 

[newbirth]

garbage there is no middle ground if you shrinkback it is to where you were before,therefore those who shrink back were in Christ and those who remain in Christ(don't shrinkback) must have faith unto the end. Plain and simple

NewB,

You really have to refrain from making things up.
The text explains it, those who have faith which brings salvation, do not shrink back to perdition. The text says nothing about them having been in Christ. You make that up. You may not impose an unnecessary interpretation on shrink back against the plain statement of the Bible to the contrary. But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Neither did I say anything about middle ground. But it is possible to be an "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian," and not go through with trusting Christ as Savior.

And what of the numerous posters on this board who would say that they believe in Jesus, but when it gets right down to it, they do not trust Him with their eternal destiny. Yet they would argue about losing salvation, when they never had it to start with for their hard heart that won't trust Him.

[/QUOTE]

If a man is not in Christ Can he shrink back? and if so from where to where. Let us assume a man is a professor he was never saved where is he shrinking to, he is already in perdition. On the other hand if a man is saved and he shrinks back he is shrinking back unto perdition.
What is your gain in trying to deceive people

 

[Atwood]

Atwood said: You really have to refrain from making things up.
The text explains it, those who have faith which brings salvation, do not shrink back to perdition. The text says nothing about them having been in Christ. You make that up. You may not impose an unnecessary interpretation on shrink back against the plain statement of the Bible to the contrary. But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Neither did I say anything about middle ground. But it is possible to be an "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian," and not go through with trusting Christ as Savior.

And what of the numerous posters on this board who would say that they believe in Jesus, but when it gets right down to it, they do not trust Him with their eternal destiny. Yet they would argue about losing salvation, when they never had it to start with for their hard heart that won't trust Him.Y

If a man is not in Christ Can he shrink back? and if so from where to where. Let us assume a man is a professor he was never saved where is he shrinking to, he is already in perdition. On the other hand if a man is saved and he shrinks back he is shrinking back unto perdition.
What is your gain in trying to deceive people

The text says nothing about being in Christ & then popping out, like something cut out of Christ's Body. Let me urge you not to try to base doctrine on the uncertain interpretation of figurative language like "shrink back." Take the plain statement of scripture. What does it say you do to get eternal life? What does it say about your security, once you trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior. Can't you believe in Him Who died for you? Can't you just trust Him with your future?

Perdition? No one alive is in the Lake of Fire yet. It makes very good sense to say that a person who was taught the gospel, and seemed about ready to trust Jesus as Him Savior turned away; maybe he said, "Some more convenient day," or "Almost you convince me to be a Christian." He may have come under real conviction, but not followed through. You may be at the door when He is knocking, but shrink back to watch TV instead of opening the door.

So leave off the speculation about "shrink back." For your own sake.

Actually NewB, are you so hardened in disbelief that there is no question of your shrinking back, you are not close enough to do shrinking back; you are just stuck back? Are you dead set determined not to trust yourself to the care of the Savior for eternal life? Or have you come to this forum just for this purpose, to hear the Word of God,.

What is your gain in denying?

Cast yourself wholly on the Savior in a desperate dependence for your eternal destiny.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you SHALL be saved -- no ifs ands or buts.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Old Water Baptism Canard: Water Baptism Does Not Save.

1. The point is the thief on the cross was FORGIVEN by
Christ before His death and while the Mosaic law was still in effect.

But he died after the law ended. So you admit that the thief had eternal security from the moment the Lord Jesus told him, Truly this day you shall be in paradise with me. At any rate, there are not different ways to be saved in the Bible. It had ever been to believe on YHWH and be saved, though refined to the 2nd person of the Trinity after more revelation.
The thief went to paradise.
When was he baptized?

Note that the Lord Jesus baptized during his earthly ministry (by the disciples), and there is nothing said about it being a temporary baptism or anyone being dunked in the water after Acts 2 who had already been baptised. Quote a verse to prove your temporary theory. How can it be temporary if it is to fulfill all righteousness?

You are making up your temporary theory.

5. Christ is the only one who could baptize in the Holy Spirit. So this proves, since he is not here on earth today, but water baptism and not I Holy Spirit baptism is the baptism of the great commission.

Nonsense. In the Great commission he says "I am with you always," so He is here during the execution of the Great Commission down to today.

6. Yes
7. Yes

It is good that we agree on something, Alligator.

Alligator, the few times that baptize is used in a salvation context contrast with the multitude where salvation is offered for believe/faith and no other action by man.

The few times that Baptize is used in a salvation context, water is never mentioned.

The baptism of the Spirit is something all believers enjoy (1 Cor 12:13) and it puts us into the Body of Christ. It is salvific, but it is not something man does; everyone gets this gift who trusts Christ as SAvior. One does not decide to submit to it or not.

However, you figure it out, baptism cannot be essential since there is a multitude of offers of salvation in the Bible just for believing/faith.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Given Before Times Eternal. Does 2 Timothy 1 Imply Eternal Security?

let us go on unto perfection;

IMHO the perfection or completion in Hebrews is for Jews to move on to Christianity in the Church and stop participating in OT law, like sacrifices at the temple.

But for us it is important to note that by one sacrifice He has perfected the believer once for all.

Can you trust His work?

 

[Atwood]

HE WHO BEGAN A GOOD WORK IN YOU [ForeKnow >ForeOrdain >Just] WILL PERFECT IT >Glory

I thank my God upon all my remembrance of you, always in every supplication of mine on behalf of you all making my supplication with joy, for your fellowship in furtherance of the gospel from the first day until now; being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ:

There is the great promise. If you ever trust Christ as Savior, He will perfect the work in you. That means security, eternal security.

The Lord Jesus is the author & perfecter of our faith.

Now worry about "free will" all you want. But the Lord Jesus is the author of the faith for everyone who has faith in Him.

You can get in on this, if you will trust Him for it.

he who began a good work in you[ foreknew, foreordained, called, justified ]
will perfect it[ glorified ];
foreknew-> foreordained-> called-> justified-> glorified.

There is no possible interruption of the 5 steps here,
it is like an inevitable chain reaction.


And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them
he also called, and whom he called, them
he also justified: and whom he justified, them
he also glorified.

Your only part is to trust Him for all this, trust Him as only & sufficient Savior. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & You shall be saved.

 

[know1]

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Gal 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Galatians 5:4


(BBE) You are cut off from Christ, you who would have righteousness by the law; you are turned away from grace.


(CEV) And if you try to please God by obeying the Law, you have cut yourself off from Christ and his wonderful kindness.


(DRB) You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.


(EMTV) You have become estranged from Christ, you who are justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


(ERV) If you try to be made right with God through the law, your life with Christ is finished--you have left God's grace.


(ESV) You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

 

[know1]

Re: Given Before Times Eternal. Does 2 Timothy 1 Imply Eternal Security?

If faith is a noun, which makes it a person, place, or thing, and believe is a verb, which indicates an action or state, how are they the same thing?
The bible says, faith is a spirit of God, like fear is a spirit of the devil, where believing is a state of being, how can they be used interchangeably, when they are so different?
Which one saves? Faith, believing, or both?
At what point is one saved?
As I stated in other posts, I must have said the sinner's prayer at least 5 times, because I didn't believe I was save due to habitual sins.
The first time I didn't believe the bible, but said the sinner's prayer anyway.
At some point, I believed some of the bible, when I said the sinner's prayer, but doubted that I got saved because of habitual sins.
At another point, I believed Jesus was lord, asked Him to come in my life, and that God the Father raise Him from the dead on the third day, when I said the sinner's prayer, but again, doubted because of habitual sins.
The last time I said the sinner's prayer, I knew it was done, and thanked Him for saving me.
So, at what point was I truly saved?

 

[Cassian]

Re: Given Before Times Eternal. Does 2 Timothy 1 Imply Eternal Security?

What do you think? Does the Lord in 2 Tim 1 teach us that if we were going to be saved, this was already settled before times eternal? Does 2 Tim 1 thus imply eternal security?

"Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of
God; who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but
according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, but now has been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,"

this is speaking about the work of Christ who redeemed the world, abolished death for all, and give life to the world.

So this text has nothing to do with God offering eternal life to all men and those that believe is where your false doctrine should be addressed. Again, you can look all day but you will find no text that supports OSAS. It ONLY fits if one imposes a false supposition over scripture. Men have been doing that on a very regular basis within the sola scriptura melieu. Man can make scripture mean anything they need it to say, just like you are doing with eternal security. What's new under the sun?

 

[newbirth]

Atwood said: You really have to refrain from making things up.
The text explains it, those who have faith which brings salvation, do not shrink back to perdition. The text says nothing about them having been in Christ. You make that up. You may not impose an unnecessary interpretation on shrink back against the plain statement of the Bible to the contrary. But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Neither did I say anything about middle ground. But it is possible to be an "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian," and not go through with trusting Christ as Savior.

And what of the numerous posters on this board who would say that they believe in Jesus, but when it gets right down to it, they do not trust Him with their eternal destiny. Yet they would argue about losing salvation, when they never had it to start with for their hard heart that won't trust Him.Y



The text says nothing about being in Christ & then popping out, like something cut out of Christ's Body. Let me urge you not to try to base doctrine on the uncertain interpretation of figurative language like "shrink back." Take the plain statement of scripture. What does it say you do to get eternal life? What does it say about your security, once you trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior. Can't you believe in Him Who died for you? Can't you just trust Him with your future?

Perdition? No one alive is in the Lake of Fire yet. It makes very good sense to say that a person who was taught the gospel, and seemed about ready to trust Jesus as Him Savior turned away; maybe he said, "Some more convenient day," or "Almost you convince me to be a Christian." He may have come under real conviction, but not followed through. You may be at the door when He is knocking, but shrink back to watch TV instead of opening the door.

So leave off the speculation about "shrink back." For your own sake.

Actually NewB, are you so hardened in disbelief that there is no question of your shrinking back, you are not close enough to do shrinking back; you are just stuck back? Are you dead set determined not to trust yourself to the care of the Savior for eternal life? Or have you come to this forum just for this purpose, to hear the Word of God,.

What is your gain in denying?

Cast yourself wholly on the Savior in a desperate dependence for your eternal destiny.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you SHALL be saved -- no ifs ands or buts.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

you have no sense of reasoning. Is the writer writing to saved or unsaved people? The teaching here is sound doctrine not an evangelical message. Since there is no middle ground it is either one or the other or both. So to be safe let us say it is both saved and unsaved he is writing to. Do you think this will make any sense to an unsaved person?....what will be the point? What unsaved person does the will of God? Which unsaved person lives by faith? How can an unsaved person draw back? If any man draw back his soul will have no pleasure in him, stands to reason if any man does not draw back his soul will have pleasure in him.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.