It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[newbirth]

Re: Does the Lord Keep His Appointments.

You manifest the mentality of an unsaved person who does not love the Lord. my security in my Savior leads to gratitude & loving obedience, not to want to sin. I suppose an unsaved person might think the way you post. I suppose if your children sin, you will go and roast them in a fire. You want them to defecate in their pants when you come around and hide in the bushes.

I obey Christ because He loves me -- His love constrains me. Or course he loves me enough to chastise me also, if I need it. I want a reward to cast it at His feet and worship Him with it, Revelation 4-5. I want to be one of them casting down their golden crowns (victor's wreaths) around the glassy sea.

Yes, get eternal life now. Now is the day of salvation.

Thou shalt call HIs name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

An attitude of not trusting the Lord Jesus for eternal life, leads to the Lake of Fire.
[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

I have no problem with your personal attacks it is expected but you have not addressed this...

And you feel so comfortable you stop reading so you never get to
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

[SUP]12[/SUP]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

[SUP]15[/SUP]But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have not so learned Christ;

[SUP]21[/SUP]If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Neither give place to the devil.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Did you not see ...For the perfecting of the saints

And these are your words...
"We are not going to establish ourselves before God by our human efforts, straining to obey commandments. If it is to be done, God Himself will do it."

are you telling God he has to do these things for you?

 

[Atwood]

Originally Posted by Atwood

It is noted that you didn't prove a thing, no scripture Kenneth. I can't recall you ever proving any of your claims.

I am aware that scripture teaches that some think they need no salvation, instead, they think they can save themselves by their good works. The Pharisee claimed to be righteous; he wasn't seeking salvation at all; he wanted validation of his works.

Pretenders can indeed be cast out, those who brag about the great things they did in Christ's name. But I don't know what "Jesus said" item you refer to by "believe they are saved."

But believing one is saved is not the point. The point is

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.

Now what have you got against that? Do you even believe in the concept of salvation?

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Even Augustine's perseverance of the saints did not totally agree with OSAS, he split believers into two categories

Kenneth, I wish you the best, but your post here proves nothing. Your claims of what you have posted in the past establishes nothing. I answered your "Church Fathers" theory, but the Word of God is the standard of proof here. "Church Fathers" disagree with each other, include heretics, and are irrelevant. Many endorsed eternal security in their universalism claims. I posted that here, & it is easy to google: "Church Fathers universalism."

BTW, it is OSS, not OSAS. "Once saved, saved!"

As to Augustine, I studied him years ago and concluded that Augustine did not believe in eternal security. But Aug is irrelevant. I myself have read through the Bible many times & once I even marked all the passages on salvation / soteriology, even passages that opponents would claim.

I have plastered the board here with scripture. If that won't convince you, I doubt that I can.

But why stop your ears and talk yourself out of salvation? Do you realize your desperate need to be saved from sin? You must trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved: no ifs, ands, or buts.

 

[Sinnner]

The doctrine of OSS = Once saved, Saved! is in the Word of God, over & over.

As to Early Church History after the NT (mostly only the selection of what the RCC has preserved), it is clear that there were many heretics. Is it not true that at the time of Athanasius (Contra Mundum), there were hardly any leaders in the Roman Empire ecclesiastical hierarchy who were not heretics as opposed to the Trinity or to the Theanthropic Union in Christ (2 natures, one person)? I posted a bunch of references to the wide spread believe in universalism among the "Church Fathers," which surely implies eternal security.

I have plastered this thread with verses that teach OSS (once saved, saved). So your 500 year theory is wrong.

[FONT=arial, sans-serif]Shall you go & recite these verses 100 times until they sink in?


"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."[/FONT]

Irenaeus' best-known book, Adversus Haereses or Against Heresies was written do to the issue of heresies in the church at the time. Mostly gnostic teachings being added. Irenaeus clearly taught against your man made OSS, OSAS. It is a fact that OSAS is wrong otherwise the bible would be 70% shorter.

 

[newbirth]

Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works

I am telling you, not God what His word teaches:
If you are going to be established before God, it will be by God Himself, not by you or me.

Salvation is of YHWH.

Why do you want to do good works? do you want to establish your self-righteousness?
But if anyone wants to do good works, He is advised to abide in fellowship with Christ; then the fruit will come; and one is advised to walk by the Spirit, because good works are fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5).

But before all that, one needs to despair of one's good works, confess one is a vile sinner, and trust the Lord Jesus as Savior. Then one becomes created in Christ Jesus for good works.

yes you are telling me God have to do it t...these are your words...And these are your words...
"We are not going to establish ourselves before God by our human efforts, straining to obey commandments. If it is to be done, God Himself will do it."

are you telling God he has to do these things for you? Yes you are. and now you make a right about turn...are you a contortionist?...your foot is in your mouth. You are not speaking to a non-believer
"Then one becomes created in Christ Jesus for good works"
you are impossible...here is the whole truth...
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [SUP]2 [/SUP]Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. (that work is about salvation)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (this work is the obedience of one who is saved )

 

[Atwood]

No such thing as eternal security yet
God said to fight so that your crown wont get taken
we have an eternal God fighting for us
as long as you are faithful you will not loose

Yes, scripture teaches eternal security -- and I have plastered the board with many verses.
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
A failure to believe that is failing to trust the Savior with your eternal security, and suggests you go buy asbestos underwear.

If an eternal God is fighting for you, you cannot lose at all; for the Lord is faithful, no matter what.
And He has promised eternal life to the one who believes in the Son of God.
Faithful is He Who has promised, who also will do it.
I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep.

Now to Him Who is able to keep you from falling & present your faultless before the glory of His presence with exceeding joy,
to the only wise God our Savior,
be glory and majesty,
dignity & honor,
to eternity without end -- Amen.

 

[newbirth]

Yes, scripture teaches eternal security -- and I have plastered the board with many verses.
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
A failure to believe that is failing to trust the Savior with your eternal security, and suggests you go buy asbestos underwear.

If an eternal God is fighting for you, you cannot lose at all; for the Lord is faithful, no matter what.
And He has promised eternal life to the one who believes in the Son of God.
Faithful is He Who has promised, who also will do it.
I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep.

Now to Him Who is able to keep you from falling & present your faultless before the glory of His presence with exceeding joy,
to the only wise God our Savior,
be glory and majesty,
dignity & honor,
to eternity without end -- Amen.

who does he give ....eternal life, and they shall never perish. explain to us in that passage of scripture who gets eternal life and how are identified and what do they do?

 

[Atwood]

I blame it on me and ask God to forgive me by the cross. Because I know it's not His fault but mine. Then I say Lord, you have taught me a lesson. That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do.

The fault for sin is ever the man's fault.
The fault for salvation is ever the Lord's fault, if it were a fault.

So then it is not a belief in eternal security that causes your sin.
Neither does that belief cause sin in my life.
It causes gratitude and profound love.

Now Kerry if you affirm,
"That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do"
then you also affirm that believing
"That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do"" does not cause you to sin.
And "That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do"
is at the heart of eternal security.


If you really believe
"That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do""
then you should be secure, as the cross-work of Christ saves the believer to the uttermost, and can never be undone. Christ's death for you is an eternal fact that cannot be undone.

"That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do"" means that your abstaining from sin cannot remove your eternal security.
"That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do"
means that stopping-belief cannot make you lose salvation, for that would be a sin, something you did, distrust.

The only reasonable conclusion is that believers never stop trusting Christ as Savior, even though they may fail to trust Christ in a given situation and then sin.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Who has bewitched you that you cannot trust the Lord Jesus to complete what He begins in a believer?

Kerry, you must believe that and profoundly trust the Lord Jesus for your eternal destiny.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Atwood]

God said to fight so that your crown wont get taken

Waters, until a man trusts Christ as SAvior, he can earn no crown (stephanos, victor's wreath).
"Crowns" are rewards which believers earn by good works. A believer can lose rewards he should have earned. (You have to join the Boy Scouts before you can get any of their merit badges.)

Salvation is another subject:

For by grace you have been saved through faith,
And that not of yourselves,
Not of works lest anyone should boast.

 

[Cassian]

Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works

Originally Posted by Atwood

Hogwash. Speaking of straw men you grasp at exegetical straws.

By no means is this about any general salvation that is distinguished from eternal life. Those who do the works in Eph 2:10 are those whom He recreated in salvation, not the general populace. The ones to do the good works are those who trusted Christ as Savior. "By grace you have been saved through faith." Only the born again children of God who are also the saved have faith in Christ. That cannot refer to all men. Notice that theyou stays the same throughout the passage, these are Christian believers, the saved. And this special group of you is also called we. Theyou / we is a special group, the general populace isthe sons of disobedience.

This is no salvation for the sons of disobedience. This is the his people: Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. You make a satanic confusion. To be saved is to have eternal life. By grace you have been saved through faith. God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eernal life. Those who trust Christ as Savior are alternatively saved or have eternal life.

"And you did he make alive, when you were dead through yourtrespasses and sins, wherein you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience; among whom wealso all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he lovedus, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness towardwe in Christ Jesus: for by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them."


That is just you pontificating Cassian; thus saith Cassian. It proves nothing. So that's what you say. There are 2 groups in Eph 2, and the salvation is about those who have faith in the Lord Jesus, not any general population. Here is what God's Word says:

for by graceyou have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them."

Ponticating is what you are doing, and espousing a false doctrine while you are doing it. Your quotation of Eph 2:1-10 is loaded with theology and most of it you have clearly demonstrated that you do not understand it as scripture states in it total context. You have consistantly posted texts showing God's promises but have never posted a single verse that gives the promises man can make to gurantee his own part of the relationship. Like I stated before, you hold to a forced arrangement where man is not an active participate, a free moral agent.

ES, OSAS or what you have now changed to OSS is unscriptural, has always been unscriptural and never will be scriptural as scripture has always been understood from the beginning. The fact you just changed the catch phrase, shows it is not scriptural, but better fits your personal interpretation.

 

[Atwood]

Are You Too Chicken to Trust the Lord w/ Ur Eternal Destiny?

For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline. Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,


"For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline."

The result of salvation is receiving as a free gift the Holy Spirit as a permanent indweller.
He does not cause us to have fear of losing salvation.
Instead we have power, and love and discipline.

Some may trust in their works and claim that if anyone could trust a Savior for his eternal destiny, he would sin big time because of being secure in salvation. That is a tragic disbelief in the Savior, and moreover it is ironical that while they do not love and do not have godly discipline (but sin all the time), they have the gall to pretend that trusting Christ would cause sin!!!

"God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
. . . our Saviour Christ Jesus,
who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"

Seems like some Alice-in-Wonderland wanted to claim that salvation and getting eternal life were 2 different things & everyone had salvation. Give me a Break!

If you want salvation & eternal life, there is one common procedure:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.
Whosoever believes in Him . . . have eternal life.

 

[newbirth]

Waters, until a man trusts Christ as SAvior, he can earn no crown (stephanos, victor's wreath).
"Crowns" are rewards which believers earn by good works. A believer can lose rewards he should have earned. (You have to join the Boy Scouts before you can get any of their merit badges.)

Salvation is another subject:

For by grace you have been saved through faith,
And that not of yourselves,
Not of works lest anyone should boast.

are you saying trusting Christ is separate from salvation? So one can be saved and not trust Christ

 

[Atwood]

R U Persuaded That He Is Able to Keep?

I know him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to guard … against that day. - 2 Tim 1:12.

In support of OSS (once saved, saved! aka eternal security)
us the fact if the omnipotent ability of the Lord.
He is able.

"I know him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to guard that which He has committed to me against that day. Hold the pattern of sound words"

He guards us personally and the salvation which He has given us, taking all necessary steps to keep us.

I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.

Is it necessary to post examples of how He keeps?
like the prayer that Peter's faith fail not?
like ensuring that no temptation befalls the Christian but such as the Chr can bear w/ always an escape?
like shortening the time of tribulation?

Neither things present nor things to come can separate the believer from that special love that they have in Christ Jesus.

 

[newbirth]

The fault for sin is ever the man's fault.
The fault for salvation is ever the Lord's fault, if it were a fault.

So then it is not a belief in eternal security that causes your sin.
Neither does that belief cause sin in my life.
It causes gratitude and profound love.

Now Kerry if you affirm,
"That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do"
then you also affirm that believing
[/SIZE]"That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do"" does not cause you to sin.
And "That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do"
is at the heart of eternal security.


If you really believe
"That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do""
then you should be secure, as the cross-work of Christ saves the believer to the uttermost, and can never be undone. Christ's death for you is an eternal fact that cannot be undone.

"That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do"" means that your abstaining from sin cannot remove your eternal security.
"That I should always place my faith in the work of the cross and nothing I do"
means that stopping-belief cannot make you lose salvation, for that would be a sin, something you did, distrust.

The only reasonable conclusion is that believers never stop trusting Christ as Savior, even though they may fail to trust Christ in a given situation and then sin.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Who has bewitched you that you cannot trust the Lord Jesus to complete what He begins in a believer?

Kerry, you must believe that and profoundly trust the Lord Jesus for your eternal destiny.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.

It is noted that you didn't prove a thing, no scripture Kenneth. I can't recall you ever proving any of your claims.
so you do the same....

 

[SeaBass]

Re: OSS - Depends on the Lord, Not the Christian

Originally Posted by Atwood

"But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from evil."- 2 thes 3:3

Why that's not fair, is it? I mean you had rather hold on by your toenails & get the glory for yourself?

The Lord shall establish the believer -- no ifs ands or buts. And He will guard the believer from evil. If you believe now, your future is sure.

That's called OSS = Once saved, Saved! aka, having it made in the shade! better, in the light!

Eternal Security.

You see He is a 1st class Savior, the only Savior. He saves the ones He saves (duh).

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Is that all right with you?

Would it help to recite it 100 times a day until it sinks in?

He shall save His people from their sins.

Now how do you become a "His people"?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.

Though you takes it on the chins,
You shall be saved from sins.

Now you grin & bear a thing or two,
But you never end up in the stew.

He shall save His people from their sins.



Good morning SeaBass.
Unfortunately for your theory, the scripture does not say it; you invent a canard to prevent yourself from trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior. You give no scripture for a "conditionally guarded," which would be not be a guarding from damnation. You invent things not there. And you oppose your own salvation.

The idea that persons are saved as groups to the exclusion of members of that group is nonsense. If the group is saved, the individuals in the group are saved. But we see individuals saved in the Bible, like the Philippian jailer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou (individual) shalt be saved."

There are no conditions affixed to the guarding. He establishes individuals one at a time as they trust Christ as Savior, and also guards them individually. You don't find the Lord groups and saving them from in groups in the gospels or Acts. The invitation goes to individuals: "That whosoever believes" "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

For your own good, Seabass, you need to stop trying to refrain from categories and theories to explain away the plain teaching of the Word of God.

"But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from evil."- 2 thes 3:3


Eternal Security.

He is an effective Savior, the only Savior. He saves the ones He saves.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

recite it 1000 times a day until it sinks in?

He shall save His people from their sins.

He shall save His people from their sins.

It's not theory but what the bible teaches. You cannot show me anywhere in the NT where any individual outside the group "Christian" is who God establishes and guards.


Rom 8:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren


Verse 28 - "Them that love God" refers to the group Christians, the obedient ones, Jn 14:15. "Called according to His purpose" the one's that answered the gospel call, the group Christian 2 Thess 2:14

Verse 29 "For" is an explanatory preposition giving meaning to verse 28.

"Whom He foreknew" refers to the one's that love God of verse 28, the group Christian. When one answers the gospel call/obeys the gospel they then become part of this group "Christian" God foreknew. God foreknew this group would be "in Christ"; "holy and without blame" and be called "sons" Eph 1:4,5. God foreknew the works this group would do, Eph 2:10.
"Image of His Son" God foreknew this group would be conformed to the image of His Son.



Rom 8:30 so it is the GROUP Christian that was foreordained, called, justified, glorified
[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

 

[Cassian]

Re: Are You Too Chicken to Trust the Lord w/ Ur Eternal Destiny?

For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline. Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,


"For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline."

The result of salvation is receiving as a free gift the Holy Spirit as a permanent indweller.
He does not cause us to have fear of losing salvation.
Instead we have power, and love and discipline.

Some may trust in their works and claim that if anyone could trust a Savior for his eternal destiny, he would sin big time because of being secure in salvation. That is a tragic disbelief in the Savior, and moreover it is ironical that while they do not love and do not have godly discipline (but sin all the time), they have the gall to pretend that trusting Christ would cause sin!!!

"God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
. . . our Saviour Christ Jesus,
who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"

Seems like some Alice-in-Wonderland wanted to claim that salvation and getting eternal life were 2 different things & everyone had salvation. Give me a Break!

If you want salvation & eternal life, there is one common procedure:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.
Whosoever believes in Him . . . have eternal life.

It is true that the text, Paul speaking to Timothy in II Tim 1:9-10, he is actually stating the scriptural understanding that Christ saved all of mankind from death and sin. That through His Incarnation and resurrection He gave life to all men, immortality. This is confirmed in such texts as Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:12-22, I Cor 15:53. As well as the first 5 vs of Eph 2. Christians being a subgroup of the whole. Of all the men Christ saved by grace from death and sin, its the ones that see and believe in Christ, that repent, are baptised into Christ, that will be able to work with Christ to attain eternal life.

It seems once again, you do not have a correct understanding of scripture. For the most part you bypass the work of Christ and ascribe the gift of eternal life as salvation from death and sin, thus something man cannot do, which is just the opposite of scripture. Man was created to do the works to attain perfection, to attain eternal life, it is the whole purpose of God creating man. Why would He suddenly change the reason He created us?

Yes, Atwood, every single human being has salvation from death and sin. Christ reversed the fall, so man and God could be rejoined in an eternal relationship. It is the difference between John 6:39 (all men, everything given to Christ) the whole, world from vs 40 (the subgroup, called believers), those that see and believe will have eternal life with Christ. Your view essentially denies the Resurrection of Christ and thus the resurrection of all men in the last day.

But this has all been pointed out to you before, but you will continue to twist scripture to support ES or what you now call OSS.

 

[Alligator]

No such thing as eternal security yet
God said to fight so that your crown wont get taken
we have an eternal God fighting for us
as long as you are faithful you will not loose

but you have not decided on the mark of the beast yet

if you take the mark of the beast
the name of the beast
or the number of the beast
you will go to the lake of fire
that is the promise

until you make that choice you are not secure.

We will all see who we worship
God or the pope.

Yes, scripture teaches eternal security -- and I have plastered the board with many verses.
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
A failure to believe that is failing to trust the Savior with your eternal security, and suggests you go buy asbestos underwear.

If an eternal God is fighting for you, you cannot lose at all; for the Lord is faithful, no matter what.
And He has promised eternal life to the one who believes in the Son of God.
Faithful is He Who has promised, who also will do it.
I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep.

Now to Him Who is able to keep you from falling & present your faultless before the glory of His presence with exceeding joy,
to the only wise God our Savior,
be glory and majesty,
dignity & honor,
to eternity without end -- Amen.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish." Atwood, if you're hanging your hat on that verse to prove your theory, Then you are in big trouble. Practice what you preach. Look at the verse immediately above this one and you will see that those who follow Jesus are the ones he will save. There are no promises made to those who quit following him.

 

[Atwood]

Re: OSS - Depends on the Lord, Not the Christian

Originally Posted by Atwood

Originally Posted by Atwood

"But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from evil."- 2 thes 3:3

Why that's not fair, is it? I mean you had rather hold on by your toenails & get the glory for yourself?

The Lord shall establish the believer -- no ifs ands or buts. And He will guard the believer from evil. If you believe now, your future is sure.

That's called OSS = Once saved, Saved! aka, having it made in the shade! better, in the light!

Eternal Security.

You see He is a 1st class Savior, the only Savior. He saves the ones He saves (duh).

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Is that all right with you?

Would it help to recite it 100 times a day until it sinks in?

He shall save His people from their sins.

Now how do you become a "His people"?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.

Though you takes it on the chins,
You shall be saved from sins.

Now you grin & bear a thing or two,
But you never end up in the stew.

He shall save His people from their sins.



Good morning SeaBass.
Unfortunately for your theory, the scripture does not say it; you invent a canard to prevent yourself from trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior. You give no scripture for a "conditionally guarded," which would be not be a guarding from damnation. You invent things not there. And you oppose your own salvation.

The idea that persons are saved as groups to the exclusion of members of that group is nonsense. If the group is saved, the individuals in the group are saved. But we see individuals saved in the Bible, like the Philippian jailer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou (individual) shalt be saved."

There are no conditions affixed to the guarding. He establishes individuals one at a time as they trust Christ as Savior, and also guards them individually. You don't find the Lord groups and saving them from in groups in the gospels or Acts. The invitation goes to individuals: "That whosoever believes" "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

For your own good, Seabass, you need to stop trying to refrain from categories and theories to explain away the plain teaching of the Word of God.

"But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from evil."- 2 thes 3:3


Eternal Security.

He is an effective Savior, the only Savior. He saves the ones He saves.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

recite it 1000 times a day until it sinks in?

He shall save His people from their sins.

He shall save His people from their sins.

It's not theory but what the bible teaches. You cannot show me anywhere in the NT where any individual outside the group "Christian" is who God establishes and guards.

Illogical Nonsense.

For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is a statement about everyone who was foreknown, foreordained, called, and justified. They all reach glorification or the statement is nonsense. If it is true of a group, it must be true of everyone in the group. But you have no right to insert the word "group," as it does not appear in the scripture quoted.

Syllogism:
All men called will be glorified.
This man was called.
Therefore, this man will be glorified.
QED

Individuals are not excluded from a group:


howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life. 1 tim


Be not ashamed [singular individual] therefore of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship [singular individual] with the gospel according to the power of God; who saved
us [all believers including the individual Timothy to whom it is applied] ,
and called
us [applies to singular individual Timothy, thus Tim will be glorified!]
with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,"

The passage started off with the individual Timothy and applied the us to him. It is utter nonsense to argue that a categorical statement about a group does not apply to the individuals in a group; it is formally illogical.


henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give to me at that day; and not to me only, but also to all them that have loved his appearing.

A promise to all a group,has to apply to individuals, as in this case Paul is one of the all.

Here is a statement of assured eternal security for an individual:


"The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom:" see end of 2 Tim.

Titus:


looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.

It is absurd to claim that the us here doesn't include individuals. If you take the individuals out of a group, you have nothing in the group. If a group has eternal security, so do the individuals in the group -- elementary logic.

But as I pointed out, the word group did not appear where I quoted proof texts.

Syllogism:
All men called will be glorified.
This man was called.
Therefore, this man will be glorified.
QED

Syllogism:
All Thessalonian believers are guarded to eternal life.
That individual is a Thessalonian believer.
Therefore, that individual is guarded to eternal life.
QED

 

[Atwood]

es, scripture teaches eternal security -- and I have plastered the board with many verses.
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
A failure to believe that is failing to trust the Savior with your eternal security, and suggests you go buy asbestos underwear.

If an eternal God is fighting for you, you cannot lose at all; for the Lord is faithful, no matter what.
And He has promised eternal life to the one who believes in the Son of God.
Faithful is He Who has promised, who also will do it.
I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep.

Now to Him Who is able to keep you from falling & present your faultless before the glory of His presence with exceeding joy,
to the only wise God our Savior,
be glory and majesty,
dignity & honor,
to eternity without end -- Amen.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish." Atwood, if you're hanging your hat on that verse to prove your theory, Then you are in big trouble. Practice what you preach. Look at the verse immediately above this one and you will see that those who follow Jesus are the ones he will save. There are no promises made to those who quit following him.

Alligator, you appear to have a hard heart to reject the plain truth reiterated over & over again, that that gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
This verse is one of many.
The context is that the Lord Jesus is describing His sheep, that is those who trust Him as Savior. He says 4 things about them, and none has any conditional language as if one depended on the other, so that the 3rd and 4th statement only applied to some sheep. The statement is categorical with all 4 attributes:

1) they hear,
2) they follow,
3) they have eternal life,
4) they shall never perish.

The only implied condition for 3 & 4 is that they are sheep.

Now there are a number of posters here from whom I hear no "baaa." I could tell you what kind of sounds I hear from them, but I don't wish to offend.

Why not stop opposing yourself and trying so hard to reject the free offer of salvation?

 

[Alligator]

Atwood, I would like to sincerely know who brainwashed you? This is a serious question. Now don't tell me for the ten thousandths time that you're just "trusting in Jesus". Was it your "pastor" or maybe. A relative? Just curious.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works

es you are telling me God have to do it t...these are your words...And these are your words...
"We are not going to establish ourselves before God by our human efforts, straining to obey commandments. If it is to be done, God Himself will do it."

are you telling God he has to do these things for you? Yes you are. and now you make a right about turn...are you a contortionist?...your foot is in your mouth. You are not speaking to a non-believer

Yes, I am talking to someone who evidently cannot bring himself to believe in the Lord Jesus as the one who makes his eternity secure.

Stop distorting what I posted.

"We are not going to establish ourselves before God, , ,
If it is to be done, God Himself will do it."

It refers to "establish ourselves before God."

You will never establish yourself before God by your good works. To what extent the Lord helps the Christian produce good works, was not the topic.