Rapture= false teaching

[watchmen]

Originally Posted by watchmen
Read Ezekiel 13:1-11 and you will see what happens to false prophets that teach false security, instead of preparing the people.

What if your teaching a false teaching ? What if post trib is false, does that mean your not a christian? No certainly not, we are only saved by grace not of works but by faith

I am not teaching a false hope that God has not promised.

 

[watchmen]

Oh so when Paul wrote his letters to Rome, Corinth, the Hebrews, etc etc he remembered to throw in the Gospels as well right? Or did he just explain everything he could in a letter? Maybe he had a little deeper insight than you did and was inspired to write about the rapture?

Paul wrote about a ''rapture'', or catching away or gathering together what ever you would like to call it, but he never taught that it would be before the post trib 2nd coming of Christ as todays dispensationalist falsely teach.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Paul wrote about a ''rapture'', or catching away or gathering together what ever you would like to call it, but he never taught that it would be before the post trib 2nd coming of Christ as todays dispensationalist falsely teach.

and when did he say that would take place?

 

[watchmen]

You are calling people a follower of Paul because they build doctrines off his letters (AKA the Bible)... I don't understand?

No because they use Paul's letters to build false doctrines that oppose/ contradict the words of Christ.

Note: Paul himself never contradicted the words of Christ in his letters, but the people who use Paul letters to create false doctrine such as the pre trib rapture do.

 

[watchmen]

That's right because they read into Paul's writings things that it doesn't say, in order to make up a theory that there is a pre-trib rapture, and this contradicts what is written in the Gospels that Christ taught.

Exactly......

 

[stillearning]

ok brothers and sisters what happens to the tares and the wheat? Who gets taken? What is your inheritance?

 

[watchmen]

Yes.. Christ will return with all his saints after the tribulation no argument there.. Just the saints won't be here for the tribulation because they will of met up with Jesus' in the clouds. So that wouldn't technically be Christ returning to earth seeing how the sky is counted as the heavens?

So now you are arguing that the coming of Christ doesn;t really mean the coming of Christ. See what M.S. means when he says pretribbers must twist the words of Paul to fit their false doctrine?

 

[Definition_Christ]

So now you are arguing that the coming of Christ doesn;t really mean the coming of Christ. See what M.S. means when he says pretribbers must twist the words of Paul to fit their false doctrine?

Okay the rapture isn't the "second return of Christ".. Christ never actually never comes on earth for the rapture, Paul makes it pretty clear and simple we will meet Him in the clouds. The second coming of Christ will be after the great tribulation which none of the saints will endure. However there will be tribulation saints (those who come to Christ during the tribulation and endure it to the end).

 

[watchmen]

Paul wrote about a ''rapture'', or catching away or gathering together what ever you would like to call it, but he never taught that it would be before the post trib 2nd coming of Christ as todays dispensationalist falsely teach.

and when did he say that would take place?

Once he tells us it will takes place at the last trump ''1st cor 15:51-53'' which we know cannot be before the end of the tribulation because Matthew 24:29-31 speaks of a trumpet sounding at the post trib return of Christ. And twice he tells us it will be at the coming of Christ ''1st Cor 15:20-23, and 1st Thess 4:15-17'' which we also know from Matthew 24:29-31 is after the tribulation. And once he tells us it will be when Christ is revealed from heaven in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ ''2nd Thess 1:7-8'' which we know has to be after the tribulation, because if Jesus destroyed the wicked with fire before the trib, there would be no trib. Lastly in 2nd Thess 2:1-3 He tells us to things #1 that the gathering together and the coming of Christ are on the same day, and #2 that will be after the revelation of who the anti Christ is, both of these 2 point prove that the pre trib rapture is a biblical impossibility. So all together this is 6 times in Pauls writing that he tells us that the rapture will not be until after the tribulation (well 5 times he makes it clear it is after the trib, and once he shows it has to be atleast at the half way mark or after).

Now you show me one solitary time in the writing of Paul that says the rapture is before the tribulation.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Once he tells us it will takes place at the last trump ''1st cor 15:51-53'' which we know cannot be before the end of the tribulation because Matthew 24:29-31 speaks of a trumpet sounding at the post trib return of Christ. And twice he tells us it will be at the coming of Christ ''1st Cor 15:20-23, and 1st Thess 4:15-17'' which we also know from Matthew 24:29-31 is after the tribulation. And once he tells us it will be when Christ is revealed from heaven in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ ''2nd Thess 1:7-8'' which we know has to be after the tribulation, because if Jesus destroyed the wicked with fire before the trib, there would be no trib. Lastly in 2nd Thess 2:1-3 He tells us to things #1 that the gathering together and the coming of Christ are on the same day, and #2 that will be after the revelation of who the anti Christ is, both of these 2 point prove that the pre trib rapture is a biblical impossibility. So all together this is 6 times in Pauls writing that he tells us that the rapture will not be until after the tribulation (well 5 times he makes it clear it is after the trib, and once he shows it has to be atleast at the half way mark or after).

Now you show me one solitary time in the writing of Paul that says the rapture is before the tribulation.

Now you are mixing 1 Thes 4 with 1 Corinthians 15?... Where in 1 Thes 4 does it talk about it taking place at the last trumpet?.... As far as I know 1 Corinthians 15 could be talking about the second coming.

 

[watchmen]

Okay the rapture isn't the "second return of Christ"..

Nope it isn't the 2nd coming. it is the gathering together of the saints dead and alive ''the dead at the resurrection of the just'', and the living at what you call the rapture'', but the gathering of the saints takes place at the 2nd coming of Christ, this is the clear teaching of scripture.

Christ never actually never comes on earth for the rapture,

He comes to earth at the coming of Christ, and as He is coming we get caught up to meet Him in the air

Paul makes it pretty clear and simple we will meet Him in the clouds.

Yep, as He is returning to earth

The second coming of Christ will be after the great tribulation which none of the saints will endure.

Obviously some will because Paul says those that are alive and remain will be caught up

However there will be tribulation saints (those who come to Christ during the tribulation and endure it to the end).

This is pretrib doctrine not scripture. Show me one verse that says the tribulational saints are people who were left behi9nd and got saved after the rapture.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Nope it isn't the 2nd coming. it is the gathering together of the saints dead and alive ''the dead at the resurrection of the just'', and the living at what you call the rapture'', but the gathering of the saints takes place at the 2nd coming of Christ, this is the clear teaching of scripture.He comes to earth at the coming of Christ, and as He is coming we get caught up to meet Him in the air Yep, as He is returning to earthObviously some will because Paul says those that are alive and remain will be caught up This is pretrib doctrine not scripture. Show me one verse that says the tribulational saints are people who were left behi9nd and got saved after the rapture.

Can you give any scriptural evidence for what you are saying or are you going by speculation and doctrines?

 

[MightyLionOfJuda]

Once again this is not that important because as christians we need to be willing to die for Christ and whether we stay or are caught up in the air our faith and hope needs to stay on Christ and if we are raptured before the tribulation praise God and if we arent praise God still because He will empower us to endure for if our hearts are right He will give us the strength to endure.You want to know why He gives us strength to endure,because the cross is what gives us the strength and all the glory and praise will go to Christ Jesus and none to us.All Glory to Jesus Christ,Hallelujah Praise Jesus and glory to God in the Highest

 

[watchmen]

Once he tells us it will takes place at the last trump ''1st cor 15:51-53'' which we know cannot be before the end of the tribulation because Matthew 24:29-31 speaks of a trumpet sounding at the post trib return of Christ. And twice he tells us it will be at the coming of Christ ''1st Cor 15:20-23, and 1st Thess 4:15-17'' which we also know from Matthew 24:29-31 is after the tribulation. And once he tells us it will be when Christ is revealed from heaven in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ ''2nd Thess 1:7-8'' which we know has to be after the tribulation, because if Jesus destroyed the wicked with fire before the trib, there would be no trib. Lastly in 2nd Thess 2:1-3 He tells us to things #1 that the gathering together and the coming of Christ are on the same day, and #2 that will be after the revelation of who the anti Christ is, both of these 2 point prove that the pre trib rapture is a biblical impossibility. So all together this is 6 times in Pauls writing that he tells us that the rapture will not be until after the tribulation (well 5 times he makes it clear it is after the trib, and once he shows it has to be atleast at the half way mark or after).

Now you show me one solitary time in the writing of Paul that says the rapture is before the tribulation.

Now you are mixing 1 Thes 4 with 1 Corinthians 15?... Where in 1 Thes 4 does it talk about it taking place at the last trumpet?.... As far as I know 1 Corinthians 15 could be talking about the second coming.

I put my references at the end of the statement not before it, I reference the laast trump as being in 1st Corinthians 5:51-53. 1st Cor 15 is talking about the 2nd coming, and it says that id when the dead will be raised and the living changed.
1st Cor 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Like I said 6 times Paul place the resurrection and or rapture at the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns and not once does he even hint at a pretrib rapture. If you think he does post it.

 

[Definition_Christ]

I put my references at the end of the statement not before it, I reference the laast trump as being in 1st Corinthians 5:51-53. 1st Cor 15 is talking about the 2nd coming, and it says that id when the dead will be raised and the living changed.
1st Cor 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Like I said 6 times Paul place the resurrection and or rapture at the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns and not once does he even hint at a pretrib rapture. If you think he does post it.

Where does it say in 1 Thes 4 that happens after the last trumpet?

 

[watchmen]

Originally Posted by watchmen
Nope it isn't the 2nd coming. it is the gathering together of the saints dead and alive ''the dead at the resurrection of the just'', and the living at what you call the rapture'', but the gathering of the saints takes place at the 2nd coming of Christ, this is the clear teaching of scripture.He comes to earth at the coming of Christ, and as He is coming we get caught up to meet Him in the air Yep, as He is returning to earthObviously some will because Paul says those that are alive and remain will be caught up This is pretrib doctrine not scripture. Show me one verse that says the tribulational saints are people who were left behi9nd and got saved after the rapture.

Can you give any scriptural evidence for what you are saying or are you going by speculation and doctrines?

Of course I can.
#1Tthe resurrection of the just and the rapture are at the coming of Christ.
1st Cor 15
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
and
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



#2 Christ returns to earth at the 2nd coming.
Do you need scripture for that or do you believe that?


#s 3, 4, 5 Those that are alive and remain get caught up to meet Him in the air as He is returning at His coming.
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Now give me the same courtesy and give me at least one verse in the writing of Paul that says that the rapture is before the Tribulation, or that the rapture is not at the 2nd coming, or that the coming of christ is not referring to the 2nd coming.

 

[watchmen]

Where does it say in 1 Thes 4 that happens after the last trumpet?

I never said that 1st thess 4 happens after the last trump. 1st corinthians 15:51-53 says the rapture is at the last trump, 1st thess 4 says the rapture is at the coming of Christ. The link between these two passages is that the last trumpet and the coming of Christ are both after the tribulation.

 

[Definition_Christ]

[/I]
Of course I can.
#1Tthe resurrection of the just and the rapture are at the coming of Christ.
1st Cor 15
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
and
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



#2 Christ returns to earth at the 2nd coming.
Do you need scripture for that or do you believe that?


#s 3, 4, 5 Those that are alive and remain get caught up to meet Him in the air as He is returning at His coming.
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Now give me the same courtesy and give me at least one verse in the writing of Paul that says that the rapture is before the Tribulation, or that the rapture is not at the 2nd coming, or that the coming of christ is not referring to the 2nd coming.

I have absolutely no idea why you are mixing those together? They are not talking about the same thing. One is talking about the rapture one is talking about the second coming of Christ. Two totally different events, you are mixing apples with oranges.

 

[watchmen]

I have absolutely no idea why you are mixing those together? They are not talking about the same thing. One is talking about the rapture one is talking about the second coming of Christ. Two totally different events, you are mixing apples with oranges.

Sorry but anybody pre or post tribber will tell you that 1st cor 15:51-53, and 1st thess 4:15-17 are speaking of the same event. The difference is most pretribbers try to say the last trump is not really the last of all trumps, just as you claim the coming of Christ mentioned in 1st The 4:15-17 is not really the coming of Christ.


Now I am off to bed before my wife has my head, but i will try and help you understand in the A.M.

But if you want you can post those scripture where Paul says the catching away is before the trib if you want, you have all night to search one out.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Sorry but anybody pre or post tribber will tell you that 1st cor 15:51-53, and 1st thess 4:15-17 are speaking of the same event. The difference is most pretribbers try to say the last trump is not really the last of all trumps, just as you claim the coming of Christ mentioned in 1st The 4:15-17 is not really the coming of Christ.


Now I am off to bed before my wife has my head, but i will try and help you understand in the A.M.

But if you want you can post those scripture where Paul says the catching away is before the trib if you want, you have all night to search one out.

Yeah, no thanks. not edifying at all. But thanks for the offer and concern. Good night.