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Yes I am not saying that Paul is not inspired, I'm saying there must be consistency between what Paul and Christ taught. The fact that Christ taught about end times events to His disciples but neglected to inform them about such a great thing as a pre-trib rapture????!!, but rather chose to let Paul do that in some obscured hidden message within his letters to churches ?! That cannot be. The absense of Christ teaching it, indicates that Paul did not believe or teach it either, and therefore the interpretation of certain scriptures of Paul must be misinterpreted by pre-tribbers, there's only one correct doctrine on this issue.
Besides, the pre-trib rapture doctrine can be defeated by considering church history and early christian writings, alone, and then tracing the spread of this doctrine through christianity from the 1750-1800's to today. There's a reason why movies and games have been made about it, because it's a form of brainwashing and spreads the false doctrine quicker.
Besides, the pre-trib rapture doctrine can be defeated by considering church history and early christian writings, alone, and then tracing the spread of this doctrine through christianity from the 1750-1800's to today. There's a reason why movies and games have been made about it, because it's a form of brainwashing and spreads the false doctrine quicker.
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greatkraw
Guest
OK for the record.
Before God judged the world with Noah's flood he removed the righteous.
Before God judged sodom and Gomorrah he removed the righteous.
Before God judges the world before the Millenium he will remove the righteous.
He(the Holy Spirirt) who Lets(hinders) will Let(hinder) until he is taken out of the way.
Once the Holy Spirit(which is God's mark of ownership on Christians) is removed(including the Christians) God will be free to judge(the Tribulation) the entire world. See Rev 3
Before God judged the world with Noah's flood he removed the righteous.
Before God judged sodom and Gomorrah he removed the righteous.
Before God judges the world before the Millenium he will remove the righteous.
He(the Holy Spirirt) who Lets(hinders) will Let(hinder) until he is taken out of the way.
Once the Holy Spirit(which is God's mark of ownership on Christians) is removed(including the Christians) God will be free to judge(the Tribulation) the entire world. See Rev 3
ahh not quite .
He didn't remove Noah he put him in an ark, and that being an ark Noah himself built, not God. No rapture there.
Abram , Lot and his wife had to flee, in fact Lot's wife was caught up in God's judgement by looking back, nope no rapture there either, and Lot's wife turning to stone is a good example of a Christian caught up in the fate of the wicked during the tribulation period.
In fact Christ taught that Christians will be on the earth during the tribulation, he even used Lot's wife as an example, as a warning to the christians who would go through the tribulation period:
Luk 17:31 In that day he who shall be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise, he who is in the field, let him not return to the things behind.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two in one bed, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
It begs the question why Christ would even bother to tell his disciples these things if Christ ever thought or taught they would be raptured? I suppose then the scripture should read: "and then Jesus said, don't worry about the tribulation, you'll be raptured beforehand, so I have no need to say anything more"
Only if God has raptured up Noah and Lot and Abram to heaven then set them down again on the earth after the judgements, might you have a case.
He didn't remove Noah he put him in an ark, and that being an ark Noah himself built, not God. No rapture there.
Abram , Lot and his wife had to flee, in fact Lot's wife was caught up in God's judgement by looking back, nope no rapture there either, and Lot's wife turning to stone is a good example of a Christian caught up in the fate of the wicked during the tribulation period.
In fact Christ taught that Christians will be on the earth during the tribulation, he even used Lot's wife as an example, as a warning to the christians who would go through the tribulation period:
Luk 17:31 In that day he who shall be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise, he who is in the field, let him not return to the things behind.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two in one bed, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
It begs the question why Christ would even bother to tell his disciples these things if Christ ever thought or taught they would be raptured? I suppose then the scripture should read: "and then Jesus said, don't worry about the tribulation, you'll be raptured beforehand, so I have no need to say anything more"
Only if God has raptured up Noah and Lot and Abram to heaven then set them down again on the earth after the judgements, might you have a case.
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greatkraw
Guest
Then you must be very very old 
. Now in Luke 17 Jesus is obviously talking about His return, the second coming . I don't see the word "rapture" there or any indication that Christ thought anyone would be raptured before fire and brimstone comes:
It will happen just like this:
Luk 17:29 but the day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from the heaven and destroyed them all.
So Christians like Lot and his wife will be on the earth and running to safety while God pours out tribulation on the wicked, they won't be raptured to the sky.
. Now in Luke 17 Jesus is obviously talking about His return, the second coming . I don't see the word "rapture" there or any indication that Christ thought anyone would be raptured before fire and brimstone comes:It will happen just like this:
Luk 17:29 but the day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from the heaven and destroyed them all.
So Christians like Lot and his wife will be on the earth and running to safety while God pours out tribulation on the wicked, they won't be raptured to the sky.
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Learning the truth, rather than believing a lie isn;t edifying to you? The fact that you cannot post one scripture to support any of your claims....
#1That the rapture is before the trib.
#2 That the coming of Christ is not the coming of Christ.
#3 That the tribulational saint were those left behind.
Should give you your first indication that they are not true, and they fact that I have scripture to support all my claims should also tell you something.
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Definition_Christ
Guest
To answer why Jesus didn't mention anything about the rapture in Matthew 24 is because in Matthews Gospel he portrays Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. Jesus was talking to the Jews, because they will endure the tribulation until the end and they will accept the false messiah and than deny him. Jesus was just talking to the Jews in Mt 24.
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Definition_Christ
Guest
O.k., that is the pretib line, but what abbout in Mark, and Luke when Jesus also states that the ''rapture'' or gathering of the elect ect... will be after the Tribulation?, and why can you not quote one single reference from Paul's letters to support your opinion?
I would rather you come to the knowledge of the truth than to edify you into believing a lie. Not being mean, just bneing honest, and if you would take a moment to be honest with yourself you might see I have a point. Why can you not reference one passage to support your belief?
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Definition_Christ
Guest
1 Thes 4 supports my belief.
God's pattern supports my belief. The righteous will not endure the great tribulation.
The whole point Snail missed here was they did not endure ANY tribulation. Which is God's pattern.
God's pattern supports my belief. The righteous will not endure the great tribulation.
The whole point Snail missed here was they did not endure ANY tribulation. Which is God's pattern.
1st Thess 4 says the rapture it ast the coming of Christ not before the Tribulation. We are removed before the wrath, but the Tribulation is not the wrath. the belief that the Tribulation is= to the wrath of God is anopther pretrib belief that cannot be supported with scripture.
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shrone
Guest
rapture- 1 thess 4:17 ...it says that we shall be caught up together into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air
second coming - rev 1:7 ....it says here that He is coming with clouds and every eye shall see Him...whereas in rapture we are taken up.
second coming - rev 1:7 ....it says here that He is coming with clouds and every eye shall see Him...whereas in rapture we are taken up.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
2nd Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
I do not know where you are getting you information, or why you are buying it, but you are to smart to be indoctrinated by pretrib theologians. Let God's word speak for itself.
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But what you miss is 1st Thess 4:15 tells us that the catching away mention in verse 17 take place at the coming of Christ mentioned in Revelation 1:7
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
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shrone
Guest
those verses refer to the persecutions or troubles that people face when they accept the Lord ...they are not talking about tribulation after the rapture
There is not tribulation after the rapture, after we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, we reign with Him as kings and priest during the Millennium.
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shrone
Guest
1 thes 4:15 says that we have to stand strong in the Lord and only then we shall be caught up...it does not talk about the tribulation during the antichrist rule
Where in the world are you getting that interpretation from?
1st Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
This simply says that we who are alive will not prevent those that are dead, and that the event occurs at the coming of Christ. There is nothing else you can get from this verse.