It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Cassian]

Atwood,

I don't recall you answering my question as to whether or not you are advocating universalism, as didn't you claim that everyone is raised to an incorruptible body? (no scripture for that one).

Since your knowledge of scripture is so limited, and because when the Truth is presented, you summarily dismiss it because it does not align with your own personal interpretation, here it is again.

Here are the texts that I cited and explained to you as Incarnational. I Cor 15:12-22, I Cor 15:53. It is based on Christ overcoming the fall of man which was death, the condemnation of death to the sin of Adam. Gen 3:19, Rom 5:12. Heb 2:14-17, II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:9.
Your view is so vacuous and limited that by denying the Incarnation of Christ and the salvific content of that Incarnation, you actually deny that there can and will be a resurrection of all human beings. JOhn 6:39, Christ will lose none. All will be raised to life, immortality, incorruptibility and all will stand in judgement before Christ, give an account of their works, in the last day. Rev 20:13.

This may be difficult for you to understand but it is and always has been the meaning of scripture. YOu will need to jetison your false understanding of Calvinism and the false tenet of limited atonement, which is an impossiblilty.

I actually believe in the Christ who saved all mankind and the world from death and sin, so that I and every other human being could join with Christ in an eternal union, which is the purpose of our existence. Which is another reason why your teaching of OSAS is false because it denies the whole reason God first created man and then saved him, so He could have an eternal union with him.

Which Christ do you actually believe in? Your view basically makes Him a mere historical figure, rather than the Savior of the world John 4:42.

 

[Atwood]

Atwood,
Since your knowledge of scripture is so limited

Cassian, So it's theological poker! I see your knowledge limited and Calvinism and I raise you an obtusitosity and a dead-Easternism.

Dear Cassian, if you want to make an argument from scripture, quote your verses and argue from them. What are you doing, copying something from somewhere while you yourself never looked up the verses???

Give us a straight answer please.
Are you advocating universalism or not?
[/QUOTE]

 

[newbirth]

Rom 11 speaks of gentiles collectively, using the singular thou to refer to Gentiles as the group the Lord is primarily working with today for spiritual blessing. Rom 9-11 deals with the future of Israel, how God now is working with Gentiles primarily, but will go back to Israel in the future. 11:22 is not addressed to specific Christians or believers. .

You are amazing in your interpretation of ...[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. ...So if the majority of the group fail to continue then the whole group pays the penalty?Assuming non believers outnumber the believers then all are cut off...It has to be addressed to them as individuals ...When Jesus say.. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. ...he is speaking to all who labour ect, but as individuals one is responsible for one's actions.

 

[Atwood]

I don't recall you answering my question as to whether or not you are advocating universalism,as didn't you claim that everyone is raised to an incorruptible body? (no scripture for that one).

I certainly don't expect you to trust Christ as only & sufficient Savior, the guarantor of eternal security, because I say it.

So setting aside references to theogians & faith in denomination, take a look at scripture. I post in case anyone in the audience hasn't seen this, as you already have had much posted to you. The following is just a sample:

"the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

Rom 8:

For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them
he also justified: and whom he justified, them
he also glorified.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.

1 Thes 5 end:

"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you,Who will also do it.

I will dwell in the House of the LORD forever.

I see your Calvin, & I raise you a dead-denomination! Now Dear Cassian,
the Word of God is not tired rhetoric. Is not His word like a fire, & like a hammer that breaketh the bones into pieces! A ha am mer, a ha am mer that break eth the rocks. Does anyone in the audience think the following is tired rhetoric?

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father…1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he whoovercomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and betheir God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

Yes, same old rhetoric.

You said it Cassian, you drone on,
but don't prove a thing with Bible quotes. It would appear that you think that vociferating dead-Easternism theology is going to bring the audience to its theological knees without Bible proof. But it goes nowhere.

He that overcometh shall inherit these things;. We know from scripture that has been posted repeatedly, but denied by you, that a believer can lose faith.

Put up or shut up. Quote one verse from the Bible where lose & faith occur in the same verse! Absolutely nowhere in scripture does it say that a believer can lose faith. It does say that the Lord Jesus interceded for Peter that his faith fail not.

It may fit your Easternist/antipredestination antitheology, but it cannot be found in scripture. [/QUOTE]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

 

[Cassian]

Cassian, So it's theological poker! I see your knowledge limited and Calvinism and I raise you an obtusitosity and a dead-Easternism.

Dear Cassian, if you want to make an argument from scripture, quote your verses and argue from them. What are you doing, copying something from somewhere while you yourself never looked up the verses???

Give us a straight answer please.
Are you advocating universalism or not?

[/QUOTE]


I cited the scripture, read it, in context. Do your own homework. The verses speak for themselves in the context of scripture.

Do you even know and understand Universalism? The texts do not promote Universalism. But maybe you are much more confused than you let on.

 

[Atwood]

I didn't lose. Anyone can see what that scripture says. If your osas doctrine were true the bible would be 70% shorter.

Wrong. But if we extracted the passages that teach genuine salvation, indeed the Bible would be shorter. All that would be needed would be the parts about sinners going to Gehenna.

Salvation, Sinnner, save, Savior.

He is a real SAvior, not just One who gives you a shot at it.

He gave His back to the smiters, & His cheeks to them who plucked out the hair. He hid not His face from shame & spitting. Those nails shout out how He loves us and bought us eternal life.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Wrong. But if we extracted the passages that teach genuine salvation, indeed the Bible would be shorter. All that would be needed would be the parts about sinners going to Gehenna.

Salvation, Sinnner, save, Savior.

He is a real SAvior, not just One who gives you a shot at it.

He gave His back to the smiters, & His cheeks to them who plucked out the hair. He hid not His face from shame & spitting. Those nails shout out how He loves us and bought us eternal life.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

"I didn't lose. Anyone can see what that scripture says. If your osas doctrine were true the bible would be 70% shorter."

To be honest, im not going to say I am 100% correct. However, this argument that you are replying to makes a very good point and you didn't do a good job at all responding to it in my opinion.

 

[Atwood]

I cited the scripture, read it, in context. Do your own homework.

Cassian the homework is yours; I do not do it for you. You have to prove your arguments, not I. Realize that we don't bow down to your denomination superiority.

Did you not say that everyone is raise to an incorruptible body? That sounds like universalism. Why don't you just deny universalism?

System of theology is not bad. By having a system that means that we try to put it all together in a coherent fashion, comparing scripture with scripture (not using human religious tradition as the authority).

Now it is obvious in reading the Bible that there are salvific passages that apply to the whole race of Adam, as "God so loved the world" and John 2:2 propitiation for everyone's sins. It is also obvious that everyone is not saved nor gets eternal life; some go to the Lake of Fire. Belief is required on man's part (& nothing else). So the question is how to reconcile unlimited atonement passages with the fact that those who go to Heaven are limited.

One way of reconciling the passages is the error of Calvinistic denial of unlimited atonement. Such Calvinists may try to explain away the unlimited verses, as claiming that "God so loved the world" means the world of the elect.

Another error is universalism. Since the Lord paid for all men's sins, then the result is that all go to Heaven; no one goes to Hell. This is an extreme & erroneous form of eternal security BTW, one held apparently by many "church fathers."

J.O. Buswell (Systematic Theology) thinks that this formula solves the conflict:
1) Christ's death made sufficient payment for all men's sins, but
2) Christ's death is efficient in paying only for the sins of the elect.

My solution is that while Christ paid for all men's sins, belief is required on the part of man to receive that benefit.
God so loved the world . . . that whosoever believes.

Your theory is obtuse to me and makes no sense. Is this your denominational line? And you do not quote scripture and argue from it, thus it goes nowhere. I am very familiar with scripture, and your POV smells like strange incense.

You continue to attack me personally for ignorance of scripture and/or theology. Then if I recite some of my education, you say you don't care about it.

Now come clean with us Cassian:
1) How many times have you read the Bible through?
2) Have you done as I have, read it through & marked all the salvation passages (including ones your opponents claim)?
3) Do you even care what the Bible itself says? Or are you so committed to your denominational line, that you cannot consider scripture on its own merits?

I think that you are parroting a denominational line, and only refer to scripture as convenient in debating Biblicists.

Let me remind the readers:

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Thou shalt call Him Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Atwood]

Originally Posted by Atwood

Rom 11 speaks of gentiles collectively, using the singular thou to refer to Gentiles as the group the Lord is primarily working with today for spiritual blessing. Rom 9-11 deals with the future of Israel, how God now is working with Gentiles primarily, but will go back to Israel in the future. 11:22 is not addressed to specific Christians or believers. .

You are amazing in your interpretation of ...[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. ...So if the majority of the group fail to continue then the whole group pays the penalty?Assuming non believers outnumber the believers then all are cut off...It has to be addressed to them as individuals ...When Jesus say.. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. ...he is speaking to all who labour ect, but as individuals one is responsible for one's actions.

NewB, you like to quote scripture. & I commend you for it. You don't just run at the mouth. So, if you like scripture, I commend to you reading Rom 9-11. This is the section where Paul focuses on God's plan of the ages for Israel & Gentiles. The focus is not on individuals' salvation. It is eschatological, particularly Romans 11. The topic in Romans 11 is the future of Israel -- does the nation of the Jews have a future? Notice the references to election/predestination in that passage.

I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. . . . Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day. . . .

a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.

The passage deals with major age movements of God. Right now we are in the Church Age in which Gentiles predominate in the Church. This Gentile predominance under the universal provision of the Abrahamic Covenant (in you all the nations of the world will be blessed) and the Gentile predominance in the Body of Christ will be replaced some day by the national salvation of Israel. The Gentiles are lumped together as one person (Thou) in a figurative passage which concerns the history of the world and eschatology (the future). The passage is not about individual salvation, though the following principle by being comprehensive covers it:
For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.

The context is about Israel's national calling, but the principle applies to all God's gifts and calling.

 

[Atwood]

Originally Posted by Atwood

Wrong. But if we extracted the passages that teach genuine salvation, indeed the Bible would be shorter. All that would be needed would be the parts about sinners going to Gehenna.

Salvation, Sinnner, save, Savior.

He is a real SAvior, not just One who gives you a shot at it.

He gave His back to the smiters, & His cheeks to them who plucked out the hair. He hid not His face from shame & spitting. Those nails shout out how He loves us and bought us eternal life.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

"I didn't lose.

Well David, maybe you should move to where I used to live, Minnesota if you love snow.

I didn't say that you lost. Wouldn't that be futile? It always seems amazing to me how people in a debate suddenly declare themselves the winner, as if that impressed anyone. I don't know what argument you claim made a very good point, nor do I remember responding to a point you claimed. Of course your saying it was a very good point is futile.

Anyone can see what that scripture says. If your osas doctrine were true the bible would be 70% shorter."

Have you been following this thread? I don't recall advocating OSAS, but eternal security & OSS = Once saved, Saved!

Now to refute your 70 percent claim, see below:

1 Thes 5 end:

"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

Col 3
If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth. For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with him be manifested in glory.

2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Ps 138

"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"


Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Ephesians 1:1-23
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus
Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Atwood]

Yeah I did. Did you read the scripture I posted? How about John 3: 16. Has "present tense" eternal life. How about John 6? Will never die, live forever, HAS eternal life. (concerning spiritual life with God)

far too many passages refute the thought that we cannot be assured eternal life until after we die.

Actually we can be assured of eternal life. "It give them eternal life, and they shall never perish," etc.

But there is much scripture to indicate that
they cannot be assured of eternal life,
for they do not believe, are dead in trespasses & sins,
and spiritually blind.

I am thinking we probably need to pray more for them.

 

[Cassian]

I don't recall you answering my question as to whether or not you are advocating universalism,as didn't you claim that everyone is raised to an incorruptible body? (no scripture for that one).

I certainly don't expect you to trust Christ as only & sufficient Savior, the guarantor of eternal security, because I say it.

So setting aside references to theogians & faith in denomination, take a look at scripture. I post in case anyone in the audience hasn't seen this, as you already have had much posted to you. The following is just a sample:

"the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

Rom 8:

For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them
he also justified: and whom he justified, them
he also glorified.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.

1 Thes 5 end:

"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you,Who will also do it.

I will dwell in the House of the LORD forever.

I see your Calvin, & I raise you a dead-denomination! Now Dear Cassian,
the Word of God is not tired rhetoric. Is not His word like a fire, & like a hammer that breaketh the bones into pieces! A ha am mer, a ha am mer that break eth the rocks. Does anyone in the audience think the following is tired rhetoric?

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father…1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he whoovercomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and betheir God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.



You said it Cassian, you drone on,
but don't prove a thing with Bible quotes. It would appear that you think that vociferating dead-Easternism theology is going to bring the audience to its theological knees without Bible proof. But it goes nowhere.



Put up or shut up. Quote one verse from the Bible where lose & faith occur in the same verse! Absolutely nowhere in scripture does it say that a believer can lose faith. It does say that the Lord Jesus interceded for Peter that his faith fail not.

It may fit your Easternist/antipredestination antitheology, but it cannot be found in scripture.

All your large print verses are conditional. There is absolutely no security in them UNLESS ONE BELIEVES.

For example....he that believeth . Conditioned on believing.


He that overcometh shall inherit these things, conditional again. One needs to overcome. Many do not overcome, therein lies the fallacy of ES.

The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. conditional statement again. those who overcome will NOT have their name blotted out. But does it say those that do not overcome will still not have their name blotted out. What about II Tim 2:12. If a believer denies Him, He will deny him before His Father. Does not sound like ES to me.
And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? Again, conditional on believing, not once, not in the past, but always, continuous. Many lose faith and will never overcome.

He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.None of these phrases are without conditions. Nothing about them that guarantees ES or even guarantees ones faith.

Now, for your edification since you seem to be without a Bible most of the time and cannot check verses on your own here are some of the 200+ verses that speak about believers losing faith. Most of these have already been posted but you have denied them consistantly.

In scripture, also, the sine que non defintion of a believer is one who has actually entered into Christ by baptism. John 3:5, Rom 6:3-4.

" James 1:14 Each is tempted when enticed and carried away by his own lust; 1:15 lust concieved births sin, and sin brings death. 1:16. Do not be deceived, BELOVED BRETHREN." How is this not a warning to "BELOVED BRETHREN", not to be "deceived by sin to DEATH"?


So --- how can James 5:19-20, not convey exactly the same thing as James 1:14-16, that is "sin can deceive BELIEVERS to eternal death"?


Do you believe the man in Gal 4: 9, who LACKS "godliness/self-control/morality/kindness/love", who has "forgotten his purification" (meaning he's impure now), is still SAVED?
Wait --- what does he mean, "their LAST state is worse than their FIRST"?


Matt 25:1-13 - This is the parable of the 10 virgins. Five of whom were not prepared for His coming and were not ready. If we become lazy, slack, wayward, even departing at any time, we will be lost if Christ comes before we repent. Watch, pray and be on guard.


Matt 25: 14-30 - This is the parable of the Good Stewards. Same story. These are all members of the Kingdom of God. One enters by faith, but that faith must be sustained, commited to the end. If we do not use what Christ has provided for us, if we misuse it, or reject it either knowingly or because of disregard, we shall lose our inheritance, eternal life with Christ.


Matt 25: 14-30 - This is the parable of the Good Stewards. Same story. These are all members of the Kingdom of God. One enters by faith, but that faith must be sustained, commited to the end. If we do not use what Christ has provided for us, if we misuse it, or reject it either knowingly or because of disregard, we shall lose our inheritance, eternal life with Christ.


Mark 13:13 - “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” Explanation: These words come from Jesus. This is not an Apostle saying this. It is clear that one needs to remain firm, endure, be steadfast, to be saved in the end.


Galatians 5:4,7 - You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace... You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? Explanation: The Greek words are "apo" and "katargeo". "Apo" also means of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed. "Katargeo" also means destroy, loose, to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency, to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish. The word for fallen from also means to fall from a thing, to lose it, to perish, and to fall powerless, be without effect regarding of the divine promise of salvation. Obviously those who have fallen from grace were running well (the race of faith, 2 Tim. 4:7) and obeying the truth at some earlier time, but then they fell from grace.


1 Timothy 5:15 - For some have already turned aside after Satan. Explanation: They no longer followed Christ. To come to Christ is not a one-time deal and it is all over with. You can turn aside after Satan just like these people did.

I Timothy 6:10 - For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. Explanation: To err, It also means seduce, to lead away from the truth to error. Surely, the love of money can seduce a person and make them lose faith that they once had. The word for "from also" means out of, off, of separation, of departing, of fleeing, of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union of fellowship of the two is destroyed. Clearly, this is strong proof that someone can destroy their salvation.

,1 Timothy 6:20,21 - O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge -- by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith. Explanation: We see that what a person says can make them stray concerning the faith. It means observe, beware, to guard a person (or thing) that he may remain safe, to keep from being snatched away (See above notes on John 10:29), preserve safe and unimpaired, to guard from being lost or perishing. Clearly, this is something that we have to do. The Lord doesn't do it for us. When we are told to do something, it implies the possibility of us not doing it. The word for idle babblings also means empty discussion, discussion of vain and useless matters. The word for contradictions also means opposition, that which is opposed. The word for knowledge also means science, knowledge signified in general intelligence, understanding, the general knowledge of Christian religion, the deeper more perfect and enlarged knowledge of this religion esp. of things lawful and unlawful for Christians, moral wisdom such as seen in right living. So the OSAS false doctrine, which opposes the knowledge of moral wisdom in God's word because it says you are eternally secure no matter what, definitely fits into being against this category and some "have strayed concerning the faith" because of that alone.


Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John.15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love If ye love me, keep my commandments.

These are just some of the many more texts that either state a believer fell away, exhort not to lose faith, or shows many can and have lost faith. Since we are given eternal life based on our faith, one cannot receive the promise of eternal life without faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually we can be assured of eternal life. "It give them eternal life, and they shall never perish," etc.

But there is much scripture to indicate that
they cannot be assured of eternal life,
for they do not believe, are dead in trespasses & sins,
and spiritually blind.

I am thinking we probably need to pray more for them.

we do. Their only hope is to release self, and stop thinking they can be holy and righteous enough God will accept them.

Then again, God sent prophets to the jews to tell them, he even sent his own son to tell them this, and they still rejected him.

If they will not listen to Jesus, they will not hear us.

 

[Atwood]

The Calvin Smokescreen Does Not Disprove Eternal Security

Atwood,
Calvinism and the false tenet of limited atonement, which is an impossiblilty.

Calvin Shmalvin.

I guess Cassian takes comfort in "Calvinism." He seems to think that labeling something Calvinism wins his argument; probably becs his denomination has officially repudiated Calvinism. But I never argued that eternal security was true because of Calvinism. So I guess he will continue attacking this straw man. Neither do I believe in limited atonement. More straw man.

Let Cassian be advised that he will not win an argument here by saying "Calvin" and "Calvinism" over & over. Nothing is proved or disproved by "Calvinism," much less Eastern-ism. Can certainly nothing is proved by "I said it."

Note the sayings of Jesus. Does He ever argue: "That's Rabbi Shammai-ism? The Lord never drones on, "Shammai . . . Shammai . . .

Shammai." He says, "It is written.

To evaluate an argument, just look at the lines where it is "I said it" and the lines where the argument is "It is written."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: The Calvin Smokescreen Does Not Disprove Eternal Security

Calvin Shmalvin.

I guess Cassian takes comfort in "Calvinism." He seems to think that labeling something Calvinism wins his argument; probably becs his denomination has officially repudiated Calvinism. But I never argued that eternal security was true because of Calvinism. So I guess he will continue attacking this straw man. Neither do I believer in limited atonement. More straw man.

Let Cassian be advised that he will not win an argument here by saying "Calvin" and "Calvinism" over & over. Nothing is proved or disproved by "Calvinism," much lest Eastern-ism. Can certainly nothing is proved by "I said it."

Note the sayings of Jesus. Does He ever argue: "That's Rabbi Shammai-ism? The Lord never drones on, "Shammai . . . Shammai . . .

Shammai." He says, "It is written.

To evaluate an argument, just look at the lines where it is "I said it" and the lines where the argument is "It is written."

Cassian is a firm believer in listening to men. since his salvation is based on men of his church. he must assume we also listen to men. thats why he keeps using these strawmen arguments, even if you deny you believe in them, he will still say you do.. the men who teach him hold more weight then reality, they can not be wrong. so if they can not be wrong, you must be wrong,

 

[Alligator]

Yeah I did. Did you read the scripture I posted? How about John 3: 16. Has "present tense" eternal life. How about John 6? Will never die, live forever, HAS eternal life. (concerning spiritual life with God)

far too many passages refute the thought that we cannot be assured eternal life until after we die.

I didn't lose. Anyone can see what that scripture says. If your osas doctrine were true the bible would be 70% shorter.

We have eternal life now.......In promise (per Jesus, and I believe him)
But we don't actually receive it until judgement day.

This is both scriptural, per scriptures already provided by Sinner, and just common sense.

 

[homwardbound]

Once again I say we do not work/earn salvation. But works do go hand and hand with salvation, and the works one produces even though does not give you salvation it can have you lose it.

If you do not believe this then take Romans chapter 6 and Revelations chapter 20 out of your bibles. Oh yeah that's right God said do not take away or add anything to my words. All will be judged by their works.

And at that time those that walked in Spirit and truth with God leading the same as who led Son, the Christ, will by God be rewarded
And those that did it by law, has to, and thought I had better or else, suffer loss, for flesh taking any credit before God gives it is a mockery to Father through Christ you think?
For all sin by the cross of Christ is:
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

So the only way to walk is in Spirit and truth from Father through the resurrected Son, the Christ, yes or no?

 

[homwardbound]

Try this for logic:
"You can trust the Lord Jesus as Savior & yet
not trust the Lord Jesus as Savior."

All that says is:
one either believes God or does not believe God and me personally I am at rest in this knowing God is faithful to:

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a goodwork in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

So it does start with whether we believe God or not does it not, and we might try to do good works in our belief, and if we do as in sincerity, does God leave us or forsake us?

 

[homwardbound]

Re: Overcomer = Believer = Eternally Secure

Atwood, just to let you know, I do believe that the Bible teaches eternal security. However, I have yet to find a single verse that supports unconditional eternal security. Just as faith is the only requirement for salvation, so too is faith the only requirement for eternal security.

What I find funny, and somewhat ironic, is when people attempt to convince others to believe in unconditional eternal security. They argue that it is unconditional when, if it were actually unconditional, there would be no need to convince others to believe in it. The fact that one must be taught eternal security before they can believe it is proof positive that faith is indeed a prerquisite, therefore, there is no such thing as unconditional eternal security.

Wow!!!!!!!!! Brother that is a mouthful. I like

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

By Faith, I believe, God does not lie, I am saved by god and none other, wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! eternally secure by God and not mankind, Hallelujah
Thank you Jesus

 

[homwardbound]

Re: Overcomer = Believer = Eternally Secure

Atwood, just to let you know, I do believe that the Bible teaches eternal security. However, I have yet to find a single verse that supports unconditional eternal security. Just as faith is the only requirement for salvation, so too is faith the only requirement for eternal security.

What I find funny, and somewhat ironic, is when people attempt to convince others to believe in unconditional eternal security. They argue that it is unconditional when, if it were actually unconditional, there would be no need to convince others to believe in it. The fact that one must be taught eternal security before they can believe it is proof positive that faith is indeed a prerquisite, therefore, there is no such thing as unconditional eternal security.

From God's perspective it is, and not from our finite perspective can we ever see this it is all God who sent Son for us to redeem us in Spirit and truth, given to us by belief in this resurrected Christ, you think?