When the war in Ezekiel 38 and 39 happen.

[Atwood]

This war is a conditional prophecy. It never will happen literally. Note that the text lists ancient weapons of war that are no longer in use today: "horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armor, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords."

However, the book of Revelation has updated this prophecy to occur after the millennium.

Greetings Shubee.
How do you know it is conditional?
How do you know that (for example), a nuclear war complete with magnetic pulses will not wipe out every computer and memory chip in the world? How do you know that we won't be sent back to the dark ages again? I am impressed at how Revelation looks low tech, not high tech.

It used to be that electric plants would operate, cars would operate, TV's would operate all without any computers & chips. But today it is a different story. Yes, there are a few 1957 Chevy's around with 4 barrel carburetors, which might leave the new computer chip cars standing still in a race.

It appears to me that civilization is very vulnerable because it is so dependent on the computer, which would be wiped out by the magnetic pulse of a hydrogen bomb. I doubt that oil well pumps and refineries would work if you wiped out the computers. If we were still operating on old technology like during the 1950's, when life was really pretty good. But we are not using that technology today. Maybe some old Amateur radios with tubes would still work until parts went bad that can't be replaced.

I see no reason why it could not be back to bows, arrows, & swords. Probably the word for sword would include the bayonet. Armor exists today. Horses are still around.

I wonder how many young people today can add, subtract, multiply, and divide without calculators. Imagine, no more cell phones, no internet, no telephones, no electricity. Imagine gangs of men looting. Imagine ammo plants that don't work without computers? Imagine break down of civilization because of disorder, gangs of sodomists raping persons on the street. I have heard that they may be stopping teaching cursive ligature; imagine everyone having to print because they can't do longhand.

I hope I am not here to see this. I can speculate that maybe the Rapture happens along with the nuclear war, explaining the disappearance of many persons. The USA now gone; utterly destroyed by nukes, nowhere in prophecy.,

I don't see that Revelation has updated the prophecy. Gog and Magog can rise more than once.

 

[Atwood]

Thats not reasonable at all. That is trying to explain away something you do not believe.

Of course they would use weapons of their day, it is all they knew.

Prophesy is used to prove God is the one true God. If God makes prophesies which will never be fulfilled, Its use to prove that is destroyed.

That is the basic argument repeated starting in the NT of Isaiah, around chapters 40-50, repeated here & there. The diff between YHWH & idols is that YHWH predicts the future. Correct fulfillment is also the test of a prophet, and failure meant death penalty under the law in Deuteronomy.

Of course there are also conditional threats of punishment if sin is not repented of. The precise language of the prophecy must be examined.

 

[Atwood]

Thats not reasonable at all. That is trying to explain away something you do not believe.

Of course they would use weapons of their day, it is all they knew.

Prophesy is used to prove God is the one true God. If God makes prophesies which will never be fulfilled, Its use to prove that is destroyed.

Well eternally-g,
let's think that one over a bit, "they would use weapons of their day, it is all they knew."
I don't know why the Lord could not produce language to cover some future weapon, even if precise vocabulary were lacking in Hebrew. No, not in Nahum with the torches supposedly car lights! But suppose it said, "Lo I see a chariot rolling, going faster than a Cheetah pursuing an antelope. And the chariot was not pulled by horses or any animal. Smoke came out of its rear. One chariot passed another on a huge road made of may side by side roads. After one chariot passed the other, the passed chariot let out a noise like a trumpet blowing. The driver stuck his head out and made a peculiar gesture using his middle finger at the other driver." Then he stuck a piece of iron out the window and his finger moved a little piece of metal, whereupon a blasting sound came from that piece of iron & smoke came forth from it. Suddenly the other driver collapsed with blood spurting out of his neck, and his chariot crashed."

So to me, I think it best to take the horses and swords literally. And that means that I expect another collapse of civilization and a new dark age.

 

[Atwood]

The conditions for the Second Coming have already been fulfilled. Christ died for us.

Ezekiel 38 & 39 was obviously conditioned on the obedience of Israel. Their probation has long since expired.

Shubee, there have not been any conditions to fulfill for Christ's return for the Church since James wrote that the judge was at the doors. The Rapture has ever been imminent for some 2000 years now. I see no signs of the Rapture in the Bible.

What do you think of Israel's new covenant in Jeremiah 31? Why do you think Israel is back in the land?

 

[Atwood]

Babylon is not the USA. It is a false religious system which is worldwide in scope.

It is indeed absurd to think that Babylon is the USA.

Now as to the i.d. of Babylon in Rev 17-18, it is identified over and over as a city. And I myself don't see any emphasis on religion.

 

[Atwood]

Thread Has Changed to Mystery Babylon Now? A City!

Now here is what Babylon is in Rev 17-18

Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth:

And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city!

Woe, woe, the great city, she that was arrayed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearl! for in one hour so great riches is made desolate.

and as many as gain their living by sea, stood afar off, and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city? And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.


And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.

Five times Babylon is clearly identified as a city.
In that it sits on 7 hills/mountains and in that it is the city that reigns when John wrote,
surely this is the city of Rome.

I see hardly a thing about religion in Rev 17-18. The words harlot and fornication I think are the only basis for claiming religion. But I don't think those words necessarily imply religion. Adultery might make a stronger case, but that word does not occur.

 

[crossnote]

Well eternally-g,
let's think that one over a bit, "they would use weapons of their day, it is all they knew."
I don't know why the Lord could not produce language to cover some future weapon, even if precise vocabulary were lacking in Hebrew. No, not in Nahum with the torches supposedly car lights! But suppose it said, "Lo I see a chariot rolling, going faster than a Cheetah pursuing an antelope. And the chariot was not pulled by horses or any animal. Smoke came out of its rear. One chariot passed another on a huge road made of may side by side roads. After one chariot passed the other, the passed chariot let out a noise like a trumpet blowing. The driver stuck his head out and made a peculiar gesture using his middle finger at the other driver." Then he stuck a piece of iron out the window and his finger moved a little piece of metal, whereupon a blasting sound came from that piece of iron & smoke came forth from it. Suddenly the other driver collapsed with blood spurting out of his neck, and his chariot crashed."

So to me, I think it best to take the horses and swords literally. And that means that I expect another collapse of civilization and a new dark age.

Horse and buggie days again is a possibility but I'm going to have to go with a computerized society to pull of this one off and not a cow brand in their 'right' hands or in their foreheads...

Revelation 13:16-17 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

[kennethcadwell]

My thing is on this, is that the bible uses a lot of symbolism. Also some of the prophecies that are given are by back ground study bases is that they use what they are accustom to seeing as symbolic to describe future things. For instance riding horses with armored shields could be symbolic of tanks or armored vehicles.

Plus if all out world war breaks out, it could get so bad that eventually those who are left after words will have to resort to using what ever is left available to them which could be horses and so forth.

 

[Shubee]

Why do you think Israel is back in the land?

That was the result of The Transfer Agreement:

[video=youtube;q5AEWx_CA3o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5AEWx_CA3o[/video]

 

[Shubee]

Of course they would use weapons of their day, it is all they knew.

Unquestionably it makes perfect sense as a prediction of something that was to happen in ancient times.
However, it makes absolutely no sense as a prophecy yet to be fulfilled.

I say again, look at the meaningless details if God intends this to be fulfilled in the future:

Ezekiel 39
Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel.10 They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel.

 

[Shubee]

Probation?

Yes. See Daniel 9.

 

[GaryA]

"the war in Ezekiel 38 and 39" --> 'Armageddon'.

 

[Atwood]

Horse and buggie days again is a possibility but I'm going to have to go with a computerized society to pull of this one off and not a cow brand in their 'right' hands or in their foreheads...

Revelation 13:16-17 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Well bro,
to me a mark is a mark is a mark. India ink & a needle should be all the technology you need to put six hundred sixty-six on a forehead.

 

[Atwood]

"the war in Ezekiel 38 and 39" --> 'Armageddon'.

Well, it appears to me that the Battle of the Valley of Jehoshaphat, staging area Har Meggido, happens at the end of the Trib. But Ezek 38-39 is a likely a Russian attack, not that of the Beast. The destruction of the Russian army could enhance the rise of the Beast to power. Perhaps the Beast will take credit for what the Lord did -- then persons will exclaim, "Who can war vs the Beast."

 

[Atwood]

My thing is on this, is that the bible uses a lot of symbolism. Also some of the prophecies that are given are by back ground study bases is that they use what they are accustom to seeing as symbolic to describe future things. For instance riding horses with armored shields could be symbolic of tanks or armored vehicles.

Plus if all out world war breaks out, it could get so bad that eventually those who are left after words will have to resort to using what ever is left available to them which could be horses and so forth.

Well there is indeed no doubt that Revelation uses symbols. So indeed we may consider whether a vision John saw employs symbols. But if so, then I think we need to establish from scripture that such and such does have an established symbolic significance; otherwise take even Rev literal. Horses are symbolic in Rev 6 & 19.

 

[Atwood]

Horse and buggie days again is a possibility but I'm going to have to go with a computerized society to pull of this one off and not a cow brand in their 'right' hands or in their foreheads...

Revelation 13:16-17 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Horse & buggy days. Really they are not so long ago. My grandfather grew up in such days. History has suddenly accelerated technologically. The internet is incredible. Bible study programs are incredible. Imagine being able to take a word in the Greek NT and instantly almost being able to bring up most of the sentences that use that particular word in Greek literature from Homer into the "Church Fathers," hundreds of years of Greek literature, & it is at your fingertips. Logos is getting to that state of excellence now. By "most of the sentences," I mean most of the Greek literature which exists in printed volumes.

How we have seen the tares & wheat flourish alongside each other. I digress, but take YouTube, all those wonderful praise songs along side porno, depending on what you search for.

I do feel confident, horribly confident though not certain, that the utter destruction of the USA is on the brink.

 

[crossnote]

That was the result of The Transfer Agreement:

[video=youtube;q5AEWx_CA3o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5AEWx_CA3o[/video]

If the account is true it only shows God can use Israel's enemies to accomplish His purpose.

 

[Jackson123]

You may be correct, Jackson. But what is the proof that Meshech is Moscow?
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[SIZE=+2]Meshech[/SIZE]
Japheth's sixth son. The Moschi, a warlike race in the mountainous region between Armenia, Iberia, and Colchis. Associated with Tubal, the Tibareni of Pontus. Psalm 120:5, I dwell among people lawless and fierce as "Mesech" at one extremity of the world and "Kedar" at the other. Gog's chief vassal, ideal representative of the pagan barbarian world. Ezekiel 27:13," they traded the persons of men" as slaves, and "vessels of copper," Ezekiel 32:26; Ezekiel 39:1. Moscow and Tobolsk may derive their names from Mesech and Tubal. Magog was Gog's original kingdom; he acquired also Mesech and Tubal, becoming their "chief prince" ("rest"; the Scythian Tauri and the Araxes were called Rhos, from whence Russia). Mesech was once one of the most powerful nations of western Asia. The Assyrians were frequently warring with them, from 1100 to 700 B.C.; then living E. of Taurus range and in Cappadocia. The inscriptions call them Muskai, the Tibareni Tuplai (Tubal). Caesarea Mazacha was the great Moschian capital.

[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD]Bibliography Information
Fausset, Andrew Robert M.A., D.D., "Definition for 'Meshech' Fausset's Bible Dictionary".
bible-history.com - Fausset's; 1878.

Copyright Information
© Fausset's Bible DictionaryFausset's Bible Dictionary Home
Bible History Online Home


Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE)
Online Bible (KJV)
Naves Topical Bible
Smith's Bible Dictionary
Easton's Bible Dictionary
Fausset's Bible Dictionary
Matthew Henry Bible Commentary
Hitchcock's Bible Dictionary
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[1still_waters]

More food for thought concerning Ezekiel 38-39. It may have been fulfilled in Esther and has nothing to do with Russia.
The American Vision | The Battle of Gog and Magog

This is just a little from the article..

The only Agag mentioned in the OT is the king of Amalek [Num. 24:7; 1 Sam. 15:9]. . . . [A]ll Jewish, and many Christian comm[entators] think that Haman is meant to be a descendant of this Agag. This view is probably correct, because Mordecai, his rival, is a descendant of Saul ben Kish, who overthrew Agag [1 Sam. 17:8–16], and is specially cursed in the law [Deut. 25:17]. It is, therefore, probably the author’s intention to represent Haman as descended from this race that was characterized by an ancient and unquenchable hatred of Israel (cf. 3:10, “the enemy of the Jews”).[9]

A cursive Hebrew manuscript identifies Haman as “a Gogite.”[10] Paul Haupt sees a relationship between Haman’s descriptions as an Agagite and “the Gogite.”[11]

There is another link between Haman the Agagite in Esther and Gog in Ezekiel 38–39. “According to Ezekiel 39:11 and 15, the place where the army of Gog is buried will be known as the Valley of Hamon-Gog, and according to verse 16, the nearby city will become known as Hamonah.”[12] The word hamon in Ezekiel “is spelled in Hebrew almost exactly like the name Haman. . . . In Hebrew, both words have the same ‘triliteral root’ (hmn). Only the vowels are different.”[13]

Haman is the “prince-in-chief” of a multi-national force that he gathers from the 127 provinces with the initial permission of king Ahasuerus to wipe out his mortal enemy—the Jews (Ex. 17:8–16; Num. 24:7; 1 Sam. 15:8; 1 Chron. 4:42–43; Deut. 25:17–19). Consider these words: “King Ahasuerus promoted Haman, the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him and established his authority over all the princes who were with him” (Esther 3:1).

Having “authority over all the princes who were with him” makes him the “chief prince.” In Esther 3:12 we read how Haman is described as the leader of the satraps, governors, and princes. The importance of this title is made clear in my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future.

 

[Jackson123]

More food for thought concerning Ezekiel 38-39. It may have been fulfilled in Esther and has nothing to do with Russia.
The American Vision | The Battle of Gog and Magog

This is just a little from the article..

The only Agag mentioned in the OT is the king of Amalek [Num. 24:7; 1 Sam. 15:9]. . . . [A]ll Jewish, and many Christian comm[entators] think that Haman is meant to be a descendant of this Agag. This view is probably correct, because Mordecai, his rival, is a descendant of Saul ben Kish, who overthrew Agag [1 Sam. 17:8–16], and is specially cursed in the law [Deut. 25:17]. It is, therefore, probably the author’s intention to represent Haman as descended from this race that was characterized by an ancient and unquenchable hatred of Israel (cf. 3:10, “the enemy of the Jews”).[9]

A cursive Hebrew manuscript identifies Haman as “a Gogite.”[10] Paul Haupt sees a relationship between Haman’s descriptions as an Agagite and “the Gogite.”[11]

There is another link between Haman the Agagite in Esther and Gog in Ezekiel 38–39. “According to Ezekiel 39:11 and 15, the place where the army of Gog is buried will be known as the Valley of Hamon-Gog, and according to verse 16, the nearby city will become known as Hamonah.”[12] The word hamon in Ezekiel “is spelled in Hebrew almost exactly like the name Haman. . . . In Hebrew, both words have the same ‘triliteral root’ (hmn). Only the vowels are different.”[13]

Haman is the “prince-in-chief” of a multi-national force that he gathers from the 127 provinces with the initial permission of king Ahasuerus to wipe out his mortal enemy—the Jews (Ex. 17:8–16; Num. 24:7; 1 Sam. 15:8; 1 Chron. 4:42–43; Deut. 25:17–19). Consider these words: “King Ahasuerus promoted Haman, the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him and established his authority over all the princes who were with him” (Esther 3:1).

Having “authority over all the princes who were with him” makes him the “chief prince.” In Esther 3:12 we read how Haman is described as the leader of the satraps, governors, and princes. The importance of this title is made clear in my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future.

Anything possible brother, but look like modern war. Fire and brimstone are probably a modern boom.

22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord.

And the war is so heavy, Israel use the weapon remnant for 7 years. Probably they convert the explosive material for cooking.

and they bury the death for 7 months.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

Seem to me it not happen yet. In Haman time there are a lot of casualty but not as much as describe in Ezekiel 38 and 39