It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Atwood]

why do you keep quoting this passage? It has absolutely nothing to do with diminishing what I said about versus three through six.

You have a wrong translation with "partaker."

Yep 6:9 diminishes any claim that they were saved; even to the point of non-saved.

"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:"

The word "better" diminishes the comparison.

But why argue salvation if you don't even believe that there is a Savior, but only a "chance-giver"?

 

[Cassian]

John 3: 16, 18

eph 2: 8-9
eph 1: 13-14
Acts 16: 31
rom 5: 6-11
rom 10: 8-9
2 tim 1; 9
titus 3: 5


just to name a few. I am sure there are many more

Not a single one states one is saved at that moment. They all have conditions and several state "shall be saved" which is future. I might also note, none of them say by faith only either.
eph 2: 8-9 - - nothing here about istant salvation upon belief. even the context does not support it.

eph 1: 13-14 - - this is directed at the future, not instant salvation, need to inherit it at the end.
Text like Acts 16:31 says nothing one way or the other. It uses the word believes, but that is not attaining eternal life.

Rom 5:6-11 is even worse. It is referencing Christ's work in the redemption of mankind. It is not even addressing believing, or surely not attaining eternal life.
Rom 10:8-9 is future, not at the moment of belief.
2 tim 1; 9 - is also irrelevent to eternal life. It is addressing the salvation, the work of Christ is saving the world from death and sin, see vs 10. It enables man to work with God to attain eternal life, nothing istant regarding faith, nor faith only either.
titus 3: 5 - - a three step process, Christ saved us (mankind) from death, nothing man did, and then enabled a believer to be baptised, and given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Nothing of instant salvation ,nor faith only either.


These don't quality and I know you cannot find any that says one is saved instantly upon a one-time moment of affirmation of faith.

 

[Cassian]

lol.. Judaism was based on scripture also. Their problem was they twisted scripture.

Just like all men do, you included. You have given us all a good example.

Paul used scripture to prove his gospel. that is all he needed, Yet according to your church we need more.

One needs the Gospel on which scripture is based. It includes the meaning of that text. Why do you think sola scripturist rarely get it right without checking what the early Church believed regarding the Gospel Christ entrusted to His Body.
My Church is Christ, the extension of His Incarnation, as scripture describes. He is the Head of the Body. Belevers are not the Body, but members of that Body. The Holy Spirit lives within that Body, guarding the Body and the Gospel entrusted to it.

As I have said before. Just because someone interpreta something wrong, does not mean the things is in error or useless. it means the interpretation is useless.

when thousands do it and they all proclaim it is the gospel truth, it makes the Bible null and void. After all, there is ONLY one faith, the Faith/Gospel that Christ gave to us fully, completely, without error. It's meaning was not derived by man 1500 years after the fact. Surely not modern men today who were never taught the Gospel in the first place, 2000 years after the fact, based on their best intellectual accumen. All this chaos, confusion and division, I can assure you, Is not of the Holy Spirit.

It does not mean we need men to make the same mistake the jews did, And call those writtings equal with scripture. We saw how well it worked for them

Yet, Pual insisted that Timothy hold the tradition as well as the epistle. There is vast difference to small tradition of Jews and Protestant denominations and the Holy Tradition that was given to the Apostles, the Gospel of Christ, form which scripture is derived.

When Christ returns, We will see it did just as good for your church as it did for the jews.

I know that will never happen. The Holy Spirit has worked to preserve the Gospel and man has not ever been able to change it. The fact that you cannot produce the evidence that it has changed speakes to the historical work and authentic witness of the Holy Spirit in time.

And again typical. You have no proof. (yet you keep demanding it from atwood) on;y further conjecture not based on fact.

all based on fact. But then I cannot prove a negative. If you insist is is actually scriptural as the Apostles taught it, give the evidence. The early Church would have held the view since the Gospel has been believed and practiced without change for 2000 years.

The point is that neither you or Atwood can produce the evidence that the early Church, or anyone for that matter, other than the Calvin in the begining of the Reformation ever held to a view as OSAS, ES. Even today, most sola scripturist, those that use the very same method as you do, do not hold to OSAS in any shape or form as is proven by your opponents in this thread.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

So how will you argue that people can lose salvation if they don't have it during this lifetime, Cassian? OSS = once saved, saved. So now you must throw away any alleged "lose salvation" texts, if people aren't saved until death. Of course you are aware that Christians are called saints in the NT.

I have never made the argument. I have attempted several times to show that relative to man's relationship with Christ we do not have eternal life finitely. It is never a matter of losing eternal life, but that man, a believer loses faith. we are being saved through faith. So if one loses faith how can one be granted eternal life with Christ. ONLY those believers that remain true, that endure, that work with the Holy Spirit to be perfected will attain eternal life.

They are called saints as long as they remain in Christ. But man is also not the judge, only Christ will judge at the end. It is at the end that one will be saved, be given eternal life, will inherit the promise IF they remained faithful.

YOur verses do not show any guarantee of belief, believing, or faith. It just says those that believe shall inherit eternal life. Very true, but scripture also shows many do not remain faithful to the end. The beleiver is constantly warned of not losing faith.

Can you find a text that says one is saved without faith? Is one saved with a dead faith?

 

[Cassian]

like I said before. Everything he believes is from men, WHat they say is truth, no matter what. that is the roman way

more strawmen. Keep knocking them down if it makes you feel better.

But where are the men I am supposed to believe in? You keep saying I believe what men say, but cannot produce the evidence. What theories have I explained by which man?

On the other hand can you also produce the evidence that your view is NOT of men. Produce the evidence that the early Church believed in OSAS, or ES.

You make a lot of assetion with no evidence......???

 

[Cassian]

What is remarkable is how you go on just saying your own words. It goes nowhere. I will let anyone who cares look at the long list of verses which absolutely proof eternal security, though you just deny it. And none of them say that works save.

For by grace you are having been saved [in past with results in present, periphrastic perfect] and that not of yourselves not of works lest anyone should boast.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

NOt any different than you, except that scripture agrees with what I have explained for 2000 years without change which is why I know your view is not of scripture.
I also do not believe that I am saved by works. This has been a strawman of yours throughout this thread. But if it makes you fell better knocking all those strawmen over, have at it.
It actually stems from your incorrect understanding of salvation.

I'm not the one denying ES. Scripture denies it as does the historical record of what the Church has always believed from the beginning. YOu know, the Gospel that Christ gave and entrusted to His Body that is being preserved by the Holy Spirit within His Body. Have you not read the scirptures? Did you dismiss this part as well?

 

[Alligator]

why do you keep quoting this passage? It has absolutely nothing to do with diminishing what I said about versus three through six.

You have a wrong translation with "partaker."

Yep 6:9 diminishes any claim that they were saved; even to the point of non-saved.

"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:"

The word "better" diminishes the comparison.

But why argue salvation if you don't even believe that there is a Savior, but only a "chance-giver"?

If it makes you feel better to grab a scripture out of context and pretend it applies to a passage when it clearly does not then be my guest.
And your "argument" that I do not believe there is a savior is particularly silly.

 

[Alligator]

not partakers, but companions.

6:9 settles its hash.

not factors of salvation

WRONG AGAIN. The Greek word there says to belong to, to share, partner with.

 

[Atwood]

YOu know, the Gospel that Christ gave and entrusted to His Body that is being preserved by the Holy Spirit within His Body. Have you not read the scirptures? Did you dismiss this part as well?

The gospel was given in OT times long before the Church. Even the Psalmist who wrote Ps 23 knew the Gospel & trusted in YHWH to get him to the Father's House. Ps 23 doesn't end, "And maybe I shall dwell in the House of the Lord forever, if I don't slip up and do a Bathsheba." He trusted YHWH saying, "YHWH is my shepherd, I shall not want."

Nothing you posted came from Scripture, Cassian. So it proves nothing & goes nowhere. Why waste time? If you have some scripture that mentions your denomination as infallible and authorizes you to speak for it, let me know. Prove your claims if you can.

Then show us where the Lord Jesus proved anything by appealing to Israelite tradition, instead of condemning it.

Πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος, ουχί εκκλησιπνευστος. The scripture is not breathed-out by the Church, but by God; moreover, no Eastern denomination is the Church.

On earth the Lord settled arguments with "It is written," not
"It is written, but officially interpreted this way by the religious traditionalists in long fancy robes. So you have to take it as they say."'

He chided them for not taking to heart what was written in the Word (not interposition of the old ecclesiasticals in long robes)

"And he said unto them, O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Behooved it not"

 

[Atwood]

WRONG AGAIN. The Greek word there says to belong to, to share, partner with.

But "partaker" is an unnecessary translation.

The passage must be interpreted consistently with the controlling verse, 6:9 -- the preceding is not the better things of salvation.

BDAG standard Greek lexicon on the word metochos:

μέτοχος,
2. subst. ὁ μ. (business) partner, companion (of ‘associate’ census clerks [189 AD]; et al. pap; En 104:6; TestBenj 2:5; Orig., C. Cels. 6, 79, 25; Did., Gen. 213, 20 [perh. at 1 above]) Lk 5:7 in the business sense common in pap; cp. Hb 1:9 (Ps 44:8).

BDAG points out that metochos is used also in Heb 1:9


Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee
With the oil of gladness above thy companions.


The whole description in those verses of Heb 6 would fit Judas well, who had a demon, and was never saved.


"we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation"

Not only is "salvation" and "believe in Jesus" not in those verses, but 6:9 tells us clearly that those are not saved characteristics.

I am so thankful that the Lord Jesus is my precious Savior, and not a mere chance-giver. I can say with the writer of Ps 23 "I shall dwell in the House of the Lord forever"
(not "maybe I'll make it if I don't do a Bathsheba")

 

[Alligator]

But "partaker" is an unnecessary translation.

The passage must be interpreted consistently with the controlling verse, 6:9 -- the preceding is not the better things of salvation.

BDAG standard Greek lexicon on the word metochos:

μέτοχος,
2. subst. ὁ μ. (business) partner, companion (of ‘associate’ census clerks [189 AD]; et al. pap; En 104:6; TestBenj 2:5; Orig., C. Cels. 6, 79, 25; Did., Gen. 213, 20 [perh. at 1 above]) Lk 5:7 in the business sense common in pap; cp. Hb 1:9 (Ps 44:8).

BDAG points out that metochos is used also in Heb 1:9


Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee
With the oil of gladness above thy companions.


The whole description in those verses of Heb 6 would fit Judas well, who had a demon, and was never saved.


"we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation"

Not only is "salvation" and "believe in Jesus" not in those verses, but 6:9 tells us clearly that those are not saved characteristics.

I am so thankful that the Lord Jesus is my precious Savior, and not a mere chance-giver. I can say with the writer of Ps 23 "I shall dwell in the House of the Lord forever"
(not "maybe I'll make it if I don't do a Bathsheba")

Oh, so now you're a Greek scholar ??? I can read just as well as you. Are there no limits that you will stoop to to try and justify your position? I don't think so. I'm done with you and your lies in attempting to manipulate the Holy Scriptures to your advantage. You just make stuff up, throw it against the wall to see if it will stick.

 

[Atwood]

So how will you argue that people can lose salvation if they don't have it during this lifetime, Cassian? OSS = once saved, saved. So now you must throw away any alleged "lose salvation" texts, if people aren't saved until death. Of course you are aware that Christians are called saints in the NT.

Cassian, you are supposedly trying to prove that persons are not declared saved at the getgo of trusting Christ as Savior. (Now how you will do that is beyond me -- how can anyone trust Christ as Savior and not be saved???

Atwood,

I have never made the argument.

Cassian, you just challenged me to show that persons are saved or have eternal life in this life when they trust Christ as Savior. So I posted a bunch of verses. So where are you going now? Where you are going, as usual is just making assertions off of sola Cassiana. Just you saying things. That proves nothing & goes nowhere.

a believer loses faith.

The two words, lose & faith, never occur in the Bible in one verse together. The closest I know of is faith & fail but once time & then it is negated because Christ intercedes for Peter that Peter's faith fail not. And the Lord Jesus didn't bother to get the permission of free-will theorists.

ONLY those believers that remain true, that endure, that work with the Holy Spirit to be perfected will attain eternal life.

That is not Biblical. "The free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

That expression "to be perfected" raises a red flag in my mind. A most reasonable cause for persons to reject grace is that they want validation of works in their self-righteous pride.

They are called saints as long as they remain in Christ.

Dear Cassian, what leads you to suppose that you can make up things? You have no scripture for that one.

You go on, just giving more made up stuff.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, literally, "you are having been saved" perfect tense, implying past instigation with continuing results into the present.

I posted a bunch of verses to you, but you go on saying things contrary to scripture, with not even a pretense of proving a thing.

It just says those that believe shall inherit eternal life.

Look again, those currently believing have eternal life right now.

The beleiver is constantly warned of not losing faith.

Not one verse in the entire Bible has both the words losing and faith in the same verse.

No, you cannot be saved with a mere factual faith, like demons have or those who think Christ is the Son of God, but only a chance-giver and not a Savior.

You have to be blind not to see that believers already in this life have eternal life. I quoted 1 John to you already, "that you may know that you have eternal life" (present tense). The believer has passed from death to life already.

 

[Atwood]

Oh, so now you're a Greek scholar ??? I can read just as well as you. Are there no limits that you will stoop to to try and justify your position? I don't think so. I'm done with you and your lies in attempting to manipulate the Holy Scriptures to your advantage. You just make stuff up, throw it against the wall to see if it will stick.

I don't like to brag on my education, but since you challenge it, I will confess to you that I have a master's degree in Greek.
I am not manipulating, I quoted you the standard scholarly Greek Lexicon for the NT, abbreviated standarly as BDAG (Bauer, Danker, Ardnt, Gingrich)

What usually happens is that someone sneers at my education, so I retort with some of my education, then the original sneerer accuses me of bragging or something negative.

 

[Atwood]

You have a wrong translation with "partaker."

Yep 6:9 diminishes any claim that they were saved; even to the point of non-saved.

"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:"

The word "better" diminishes the comparison.

But why argue salvation if you don't even believe that there is a Savior, but only a "chance-giver"?

If it makes you feel better to grab a scripture out of context and pretend it applies to a passage when it clearly does not then be my guest.
And your "argument" that I do not believe there is a savior is particularly silly.

I didn't grab anything out of context, that is what you did. I added context going through 6:9 where the passage is explained. There is no pretending. 6:9 clearly refers back to the things he said in the preceding verses. The word better is a comparative, comparing something of superior excellence to something else. And the preceding verses is what were just mentioned, the point of comparison.

Perhaps though you are angry now, you will actually come to realize that you have demoted the Lord Jesus from Savior to "chance-giver" in contradiction to


"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."

 

[Atwood]

more strawmen.

Your Calvin stuff is strawman. Is my dismissal of you for basing truth on what your Eastern denomination says "straw man," or is that not exactly your authority?

" Produce the evidence that the early Church believed in OSAS, or ES.

You make a lot of assetion with no evidence......???[/QUOTE]

Totally false. But I am not going to paste all that evidence again now. I doubt you even would look at it. The conclusive evidence is in posts 2807, 2827, 2847, 2869, 2873, 2959, and elsewhere already posted going back to the o.p. in the thread.

The Early Church believed the writers of the NT who said things like,
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

"He who began a good work in you will complete it." And on & on.

What we have in the post NT period is an incredible departure from the NT, which reminds me of the great apostasy of the times of the Judges, how things were done in the Book of Judges, so soon after Moses & Joshua. "Every man did what was right in his own eyes." You read in the Law the way things are supposed to be done & then watch the history of Israel as the law is set aside.

Soon was it not "Athanasius Contra Mundum"?

It is sad to see someone choose human tradition over God's word.

 

[Alligator]

Oh, so now you're a Greek scholar ??? I can read just as well as you. Are there no limits that you will stoop to to try and justify your position? I don't think so. I'm done with you and your lies in attempting to manipulate the Holy Scriptures to your advantage. You just make stuff up, throw it against the wall to see if it will stick.

I don't like to brag on my education, but since you challenge it, I will confess to you that I have a master's degree in Greek.
I am not manipulating, I quoted you the standard scholarly Greek Lexicon for the NT, abbreviated standarly as BDAG (Bauer, Danker, Ardnt, Gingrich)

What usually happens is that someone sneers at my education, so I retort

l

.k m with some of my education, then the original sneerer accuses me of bragging or something negative.

i could care less how many degrees you have and the only thing that makes me angry is people like you who are dishonest with the scriptures and lead others astray.

 

[Atwood]

Eternal Security Passage by Athanasius

" If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth. For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with him be manifested in glory." Col 3

I was taking a look at Athanasius (Contra Mundum), and noted that he quoted this passage, not that I found anything in his own words on the subject of eternal security. But I am thankful to the old boy now for having mentioned this passage. I thought I would check him out, since Athanasius is known as a great defender of the correct view of the Trinity and of Christ.

It is a marvelous declaration, as to how the Christian
Died with Christ and rose with Christ.
"Your life is hid with Christ in God."
That sounds secure to me, a bit like being in Christ's hand in John 10.

But then a declaration is made that the Christian will be manifested with Christ in glory.

It is a positive and direct statement. But I know that some hearts are too hard to receive the truth. It is not that the Christian has a chance at being manifested in glory, but the Christian will be manifested in glory.

This is like Romans 8:
foreknown, foreordained, called, justified, glorified.
An unbreakable chain of events.

 

[Alligator]

not partakers, but companions.

6:9 settles its hash.

not factors of salvation

Baloney...........................

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not a single one states one is saved at that moment. They all have conditions and several state "shall be saved" which is future. I might also note, none of them say by faith only either.
eph 2: 8-9 - - nothing here about istant salvation upon belief. even the context does not support it.

eph 1: 13-14 - - this is directed at the future, not instant salvation, need to inherit it at the end.
Text like Acts 16:31 says nothing one way or the other. It uses the word believes, but that is not attaining eternal life.

Rom 5:6-11 is even worse. It is referencing Christ's work in the redemption of mankind. It is not even addressing believing, or surely not attaining eternal life.
Rom 10:8-9 is future, not at the moment of belief.
2 tim 1; 9 - is also irrelevent to eternal life. It is addressing the salvation, the work of Christ is saving the world from death and sin, see vs 10. It enables man to work with God to attain eternal life, nothing istant regarding faith, nor faith only either.
titus 3: 5 - - a three step process, Christ saved us (mankind) from death, nothing man did, and then enabled a believer to be baptised, and given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Nothing of instant salvation ,nor faith only either.


These don't quality and I know you cannot find any that says one is saved instantly upon a one-time moment of affirmation of faith.

if you wish to be blind, be my guest.

This is the most outrageous misinterpretation of the words of God I think I have ever heard.

Then again, When your doctrines are based on what MEN TEACH YOU and not what the WORD OF GOD teaches you, it does not surprise me any.

 

[Atwood]

Eternal Security: Security of the Psalmist

But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
-Ps 52

1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

Let's sing it:

Hallelujah 'tis done,
I believe on God's Son,
I am saved by the blood of the crucified One!

Do you trust in the the Lovingkindness of the Savior forever?
Or have you reduced Him to a chance-giver?