Is justification by faith alone?

[seed_time_harvest]

I have seen this discussion a hundred times and heard alot of different beliefs about it. So let me try to come at it from a different angle:

For those who do not believe in "works" being part of salvation, just for the sake of discussion, let me re-phrase it. Do you believe that when person first hears the gospel of Jesus Christ that there is anything that the must obey? And in order to stay saved until the rapture of the church or their death, do they have to obey anything at all?

The bible says the gospil is the power of GOD unto salvation for anyone who believes.
The work of GOD is to believe the word that GOD sent.
After you are saved then GOD says if you love me keep my commandments and its GOD that works in us to will and do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

thanks, you just proved eternal security.

it is not based on our work. but Gods work of salvation, and sustaining those he saved.

He who begun a good work in YOU WILL CONTINUE it until the day of Christ

Not may continue, Not will continue as long as you do something, WILL CONTINUE.. period.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are saved by grace.(he cleaned us up took away the sins and give us a new start)...through faith ....God gives us faith to live our life in obedience to his word and remain pure until he returns or we die which ever comes first.

so in other words. He only forgives us our sin up till the time we are saved (although he died 2000 years ago for ALL our sin) and we must be perfect after we are saved, or be saved over and over by faith?

one can not have faith in God in this senerio. they can only have faith in self. there is no hope in this gospel. because it is based on you and your ability to continue, and not christ finishing a good work in you.

see you almost got it. then you go off on legalism, and mess up.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have seen this discussion a hundred times and heard alot of different beliefs about it. So let me try to come at it from a different angle:

For those who do not believe in "works" being part of salvation, just for the sake of discussion, let me re-phrase it. Do you believe that when person first hears the gospel of Jesus Christ that there is anything that the must obey? And in order to stay saved until the rapture of the church or their death, do they have to obey anything at all?

1. Obey the gospel (faith in christ) until they do this they are lost.
2. Question is non valid. those saved will want to do all kinds of work. there is no iff or must about it. You can;t claim you have faith in what someone says, and not do the things they speak of. Your faith would be dead (in other words, you lied to yourself that you actually had faith, you had mere belief.

 

[newbirth]

so in other words. He only forgives us our sin up till the time we are saved (although he died 2000 years ago for ALL our sin) and we must be perfect after we are saved, or be saved over and over by faith?

one can not have faith in God in this senerio. they can only have faith in self. there is no hope in this gospel. because it is based on you and your ability to continue, and not christ finishing a good work in you.

see you almost got it. then you go off on legalism, and mess up.

Don't fight with me ...here is the word...The Gospel on a nutshell
Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Romans 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 1:16-17
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.




2 Peter 1:9



But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

2 Peter 1:3
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[newbirth]

thanks, you just proved eternal security.

it is not based on our work. but Gods work of salvation, and sustaining those he saved.

He who begun a good work in YOU WILL CONTINUE it until the day of Christ

Not may continue, Not will continue as long as you do something, WILL CONTINUE.. period.

your response proves you did not read my post or you do not understand what I posted

 

[apostolic862004]

Originally Posted by apostolic862004 I have seen this discussion a hundred times and heard alot of different beliefs about it. So let me try to come at it from a different angle:

For those who do not believe in "works" being part of salvation, just for the sake of discussion, let me re-phrase it. Do you believe that when person first hears the gospel of Jesus Christ that there is anything that the must obey? And in order to stay saved until the rapture of the church or their death, do they have to obey anything at all?



1. Obey the gospel (faith in christ) until they do this they are lost.
2. Question is non valid. those saved will want to do all kinds of work. there is no iff or must about it. You can;t claim you have faith in what someone says, and not do the things they speak of. Your faith would be dead (in other words, you lied to yourself that you actually had faith, you had mere belief.

So you are saying that in order to be saved there is something you must DO? Well Im glad to hear you at least admit that much. How can you OBEY if you don't DO something? That is what we call WORK! All of the ACTS or ACTIONS of obedience require WORK! You must DO something to OBEY! and if you don't DO something to OBEY, you don't have FAITH! That is what I have been saying all along. Don't tell me you believe but you aren't DOING anything that Jesus said to do!

Jesus said

Here is a list of scriptures that say exactly that!

John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Leviticus 22:31 - Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the Lord.
1 John 2:3 - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Exodus 16:28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
1 John 3:22 - And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

those saved will want to do all kinds of work.

I agree 100%

there is no iff or must about it.

I disagree 100%. Believers will want to do the work if they are born again. But as a believer, you don't ALWAYS want to do what is right. If you believe that once you are saved you will always want and always do the right thing, you are completely deceived. That wont happen until we get to heaven. But until then, we are COMMANDED to do the right thing and we must OBEY and in order to OBEY, we must WORK AT IT!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Don't fight with me

I am not fighting with you. if anything you are fighting with me.

...here is the word...The Gospel on a nutshell
Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Romans 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 1:16-17
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

I agree with every one of these.. amen..

I will add a few, is that ok?

Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Acts 13:39 - And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

romans 3: 23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. being justified freely by the grace of God through the redemption in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

1 cor 1:30 But of him you are in Chris Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and rightiousness and sanctification and redemption

col 2 - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

2 tim 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Rom 5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

I have been here myself. Then again, I was still Gods child. This does not prove one can lose salvation. this proves one can lose sight of where he is headed, and suffer.

Romans 3:25

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

This speaks of sins of the OT saints, which had not yet been paid for. Does not prove that only sins up till faith are forgiven.

2 Peter 1:3
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And I agree with these, these passages support my gospel./

 

[eternally-gratefull]

your response proves you did not read my post or you do not understand what I posted

oh?? so you do believe in eternal security? Have I misjudged you? Because those passages you posted support eternal security, they do not go against it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you are saying that in order to be saved there is something you must DO?

It is the work of God that we believe in the one he sent.

If you call faith in Christ a work of man. You would be sadly mistaken.

Well Im glad to hear you at least admit that much. How can you OBEY if you don't DO something?

it is the work of God we have faith in what he says. Again, are you trying to make this a work of man? It would only be a work of man if it is mans work we are having faith in. And not Gods.. You do understand that do you not?

That is what we call WORK! All of the ACTS or ACTIONS of obedience require WORK! You must DO something to OBEY! and if you don't DO something to OBEY, you don't have FAITH! That is what I have been saying all along. Don't tell me you believe but you aren't DOING anything that Jesus said to do!

No, Those would be works of men. Those would be works of merit (earning reward) not grace (freely given) That would be placing faith in yourself. NOT in the work of Christ. Which is a false gospel.

Jesus said

Here is a list of scriptures that say exactly that!

John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Leviticus 22:31 - Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the Lord.
1 John 2:3 - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Exodus 16:28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
1 John 3:22 - And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Those who trust jesus WILL DO THIS. as your passage says, 1 John 2:3 - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Does God need me to keep his commands to know I have faith in him or not? Is God that lacking in his diety that he needs to make sure we trust him just in case he got it wrong?

I agree 100%

Amazing. but then you contradict yourself and say this....

I disagree 100%. Believers will want to do the work if they are born again. But as a believer, you don't ALWAYS want to do what is right. If you believe that once you are saved you will always want and always do the right thing, you are completely deceived. That wont happen until we get to heaven. But until then, we are COMMANDED to do the right thing and we must OBEY and in order to OBEY, we must WORK AT IT!

Which is it. Believers will do works. or they will not.

the question is not will someone be perfect. We will not be perfect. that is why God has to sustain us until we get to heaven. And why we need the seal of the spirit which is our guarantee. or we would be lost forever. because we are not perfect. We are but as Paul calls himself. wretched men.

james said those who do works have saving faith. Here you claim people have works. thus they must have saving faith. james never said they had to be perfect. Just do work.

James said those who do no work (they have done NON of these things) have a dead faith , thus were never saved at all..

 

[newbirth]

I am not fighting with you. if anything you are fighting with me.



I agree with every one of these.. amen..

I will add a few, is that ok?

Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Acts 13:39 - And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

romans 3: 23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. being justified freely by the grace of God through the redemption in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

1 cor 1:30 But of him you are in Chris Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and rightiousness and sanctification and redemption

col 2 - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

2 tim 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Rom 5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.




I have been here myself. Then again, I was still Gods child. This does not prove one can lose salvation. this proves one can lose sight of where he is headed, and suffer.

This speaks of sins of the OT saints, which had not yet been paid for. Does not prove that only sins up till faith are forgiven.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

(how on earth can this mean OT saints)
And I agree with these, these passages support my gospel./

You call those responses ...you were doing well but now this what looks like the chatter of the ignorant ...you can do better. You have not read and understood what I posted have you ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You call those responses ...you were doing well but now this what looks like the chatter of the ignorant ...you can do better. You have not read and understood what I posted have you ?

What sins do you think he was talking about? He passed over the sins of the OT because they had not been paid for. In gods forbearance (he knew his son would pay for their sin) their sin was passed over, and they were declaried righteous. How could abraham be declaired righteous by faith if his sins were not ocvered yet by the death of Christ?

Try reading the whole thing with open eyes, and thinking heart. and you will see.

Talk about ignorant.

I understand completely my friend. To be honest. I Think I understand what your saying better than you do. (considering I used to think just like you)

 

[newbirth]

It is the work of God that we believe in the one he sent.

If you call faith in Christ a work of man. You would be sadly mistaken.



it is the work of God we have faith in what he says. Again, are you trying to make this a work of man? It would only be a work of man if it is mans work we are having faith in. And not Gods.. You do understand that do you not?




No, Those would be works of men. Those would be works of merit (earning reward) not grace (freely given) That would be placing faith in yourself. NOT in the work of Christ. Which is a false gospel.



[/FONT][/COLOR]Those who trust jesus WILL DO THIS. as your passage says, 1 John 2:3 - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Does God need me to keep his commands to know I have faith in him or not? Is God that lacking in his diety that he needs to make sure we trust him just in case he got it wrong?


Amazing. but then you contradict yourself and say this....

Which is it. Believers will do works. or they will not.

the question is not will someone be perfect. We will not be perfect. that is why God has to sustain us until we get to heaven. And why we need the seal of the spirit which is our guarantee. or we would be lost forever. because we are not perfect. We are but as Paul calls himself. wretched men.

james said those who do works have saving faith. Here you claim people have works. thus they must have saving faith. james never said they had to be perfect. Just do work.

James said those who do no work (they have done NON of these things) have a dead faith , thus were never saved at all..

where do you get these things from?

Truly you are a deciever

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Truly you are a deciever

truly you have been deceived.

 

[newbirth]

What sins do you think he was talking about? He passed over the sins of the OT because they had not been paid for. In gods forbearance (he knew his son would pay for their sin) their sin was passed over, and they were declaried righteous. How could abraham be declaired righteous by faith if his sins were not ocvered yet by the death of Christ?

[SUP][SUP]22 [/SUP]the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [SUP]25 [/SUP]whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [SUP]26 [/SUP]It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.[/SUP]seems pretty clear he is talking to usin ESV

Try reading the whole thing with open eyes, and thinking heart. and you will see.

Talk about ignorant.

I understand completely my friend. To be honest. I Think I understand what your saying better than you do. (considering I used to think just like you)

You don't even know scripture...[SUP]5 [/SUP]but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

you are making up stories pal ...tell that to someone who has not read the scriptures and has not the holy spirit. The gospel was preached to the dead.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore it says,“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”[SUP][a][/SUP]

[SUP]9 [/SUP](In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]10 [/SUP]He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I guess Peter is wrong too...
2 Peter 1:9
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

this is how ESV say it
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

 

[Hoffco]

So you are saying that in order to be saved there is something you must DO? Well Im glad to hear you at least admit that much. How can you OBEY if you don't DO something? That is what we call WORK! All of the ACTS or ACTIONS of obedience require WORK! You must DO something to OBEY! and if you don't DO something to OBEY, you don't have FAITH! That is what I have been saying all along. Don't tell me you believe but you aren't DOING anything that Jesus said to do!

Jesus said

Here is a list of scriptures that say exactly that!

John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Leviticus 22:31 - Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the Lord.
1 John 2:3 - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Exodus 16:28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
1 John 3:22 - And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.



I agree 100%

I disagree 100%. Believers will want to do the work if they are born again. But as a believer, you don't ALWAYS want to do what is right. If you believe that once you are saved you will always want and always do the right thing, you are completely deceived. That wont happen until we get to heaven. But until then, we are COMMANDED to do the right thing and we must OBEY and in order to OBEY, we must WORK AT IT!

Amen!, You have FINALLY gotten eternally grateful to admit to words. PRAISE GOD! Love to all Hoffco

 

[newbirth]

The Bible says we are justified by faith alone.

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast. " Eph. 2:8-9

However, we do need to respond to God, and that comes after justification.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:10

you say we are justified by faith only...The scripture says we have been justified by faithJames 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.