It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Atwood]

The Security of the Usuns Ps 66

Oh bless our God, ye peoples,
And make the voice of his praise to be heard;
Who holdeth our soul in life,
And suffered not our feet to be moved.
For thou, O God, hast proved us:
Thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.
Thou broughtest us into the net;
Thou layedst a sore burden upon our loins.
Thou didst cause men to ride over our heads;
We went through fire and through water;
But thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place.

Now without apologies to the free-wheelers, I mean free-willers,
The Lord holds our soul in life.
And He doesn't let our feet to be moved.
To be sure there are trials on the way,
but we will be brought out into a wealthy place,
namely with streets of gold.

Our citizenship is in Heaven.
He has gone to prepare us a place that where He is there we may be also.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

We have an inheritance incorruptible & undefiled, reserved in Heaven.

I rejoice that I have a Savior, not a mere "chance-giver."

 

[kennethcadwell]

In Matthew 7:21 Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

At one point a wealthy young man asked Jesus how he could receive eternal life. "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" the man asked (Matthew 19:16). Christ's reply, in verse 17, might shock some who think obedience to God's law is unnecessary. Jesus responded, "If you want
to enter into life, keep the commandments."

James goes on to explain that faith—belief and trust in God—and obedience go hand in hand: "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?" (verses 20-22).

Jesus gave another condition for God's gift of eternal life in Mark 16:16: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Water baptism—by full immersion—is a symbolic act representing the death of our old self and the beginning of a new life of serving God and striving to avoid sin (Romans 6:1-23).


In Matthew 10:22 Jesus listed another condition we must meet to receive God's gift of salvation: "He who endures to the end will be saved." We can lose out on salvation if we fail to endure to the end. Once we have committed ourselves to obeying God and surrendering ourselves to Him, we must stay the course to the end and not look back (Luke 9:62; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

He expects us to surrender our lives in return. "If you want to be my follower you must love me more than your own father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, more than your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. And you cannot be my disciple if you do not carry your own cross and follow me" (Luke 14:26-27, NLT).

 

[Kerry]

Good answer? but not good enough. I sang for you Lord and danced before you. Reply. " I never knew you, depart from me you worker of iniquity". Is your faith in the cross or in false doctrine that has been taught all your life.


Eternal security is based on ones faith in the cross. Jesus died for everyone so are we all saved?

It is God's will that no man should perish, but that all should repent to everlasting life. But that is not reality is it? People die and spend eternity in hell everyday. It is God's will that we have eternal security, but it is not reality is it?

If your or my faith is is placed in something other than the cross. Then the sin nature revives and what is the result of sin?

The eternal security doctrine is based on works of the flesh and not the cross. It is based on baptism ( works), church attendance ( works) and being sinless when you know you are in sin. The wages of sin is death. The only thing that cleanses sin is the blood of the cross.

The cross forgives of sin past. present and future. How can you be forgiven of a sin that you have not yet done?

 

[Atwood]

Originally Posted by Atwood

Wrong. You mean that the KJV mistranslates judgment as damnation?

There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus!

Praise the Lord.

You have no verse saying that a Christian goes to the Lake of Fire.
You have no verse that says a Christian loses faith.
You have no verse that says a Christian loses salvation.

What will you have? the Savior whose word says:

"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins"?

Or do you insist on an imaginary "chance-giver"?

Let's see if King James has it wrong.

Is that good 'nuff ?

Strong made a concordance years ago. I think his "meanings" are basically KJV translations.

Strong is not a lexical authority.. BDAG is the standard NT Lexicon
It gives a number of meanings including

κρίμα,
legal action taken against someone, dispute, lawsuit. content of a deliberative process, decision, decree , also of the fixed purposes of divine grace Ro 11:33.
action or function of a judge, judging, judgment,


4. legal decision rendered by a judge, judicial verdict, condemnation.

Damnation is not listed; Damnation is a mistranslation, as too specific.

Again, you take a verse which in which salvation does not occur. Rom 13 is about obeying civil authorities on earth.


"Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God. Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment. For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:"

Going to Heaven or Hell is not the issue, neither is salvation. But there are judgmental punishments that one gets from the civil authorities (government) for breaking laws, resisting arrest, etc.

Consider passages about salvation and eternal life to arrive at the truth on this subject.

He Who began a good work in you will complete it.

Have you oozed and perused through all the scripture I posted for eternal security? It is quite a bit. Do you request a re-posting? I may have posted it over 20 times now.


Consider the evidence. The Lord Jesus really is the Savior, not a mere "chance-giver"

 

[Kerry]

So lets break this down. A person get's saved and they do good for a while and then they fall back into sin. stop going to church and hanging with their buddies at the local watering hole. This doctrine declares that they were never saved. They just thought they were.

Well what do you say to those people? You just don't cut the mustard? You were not chosen to be saved, God created for to fuel the fires of hell? Try again next time?

 

[Atwood]

He Who is Convinced Against His Will, Is of the Same Opinion Still

In Matthew 7:21 Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

But here is what doing the Father's will is:

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (Great Eternal Security passage, John 6)

So if you would do the Father's will, trust the Lord Jesus right now as your Savior instead of "chance-giver."

At one point a wealthy young man asked Jesus how he could receive eternal life. "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" the man asked (Matthew 19:16). Christ's reply, in verse 17, might shock some who think obedience to God's law is unnecessary. Jesus responded, "If you want
to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Keep reading. This is the hypothetical justification by keeping the law. It is only hypothetical since no one keeps the commandments. The Lord Jesus let the air out of his self-righteous bag of hot air, convicting the young man of not keeping the commandments. The passage goes on to declare that with man salvation is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Read on. Salvation is precisely what sinners need; validation of works will not happen.

James is irrelevant. James neither asserts nor denies eternal security. Yes, true faith does issue in good works. What else is new?

Jesus gave another condition for God's gift of eternal life in Mark 16:16: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Water baptism—by full immersion—is a symbolic act representing the death of our old self and the beginning of a new life of serving God and striving to avoid sin (Romans 6:1-23).

Since salvation is offered over & over just for believing/ faith, nothing else, water baptism cannot be essential. It is also true that if you believe & eat beans you will be saved. But the beans are not essential. Moreover, water baptism is a human work, which is excluded from being saving. (Not of works lest anyone should boast). Also note that the 2nd part doesn't mention baptism, only "not believe." Also, water is not mentioned in the passage. Thus I take it to be Spirit Baptism as that is salvific, but it is not a human work; Spirit baptism is something the Lord does to a man, everyone who trusts Christ as Savior, putting the man into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13). It is not something a human does.

Romans 6 has no water. It has baptism into Christ, not into water. This makes sense as Spirit baptism also, as Spirit baptism puts a man into the Church the Body of Christ. The baptism into Christ of Romans 6 puts us in Christ & thus on the cross with Him when He died, crucifying the Old Man.

I already explained Mat 10 to you: Tribulation, not salvation to Heaven. But by eternal security all believers do endure. So it is irrelevant. Mat 10 says nothing about losing salvation. Lose & salvation never occur together in any verse in the Bible.

You won't be staying the course to the end; you will be sinning probably every day. But a true believer in Christ, as opposed to someone who thinks he can demote Christ to "chance giver," does endure in salvation to the end.

Being a disciple costs everything, but salvation is free. 2 different subjects.

Will this be the day that you trust Christ as only & sufficient Savior, and you repent of having down-graded Him to "chance-giver"

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Atwood]

Well what do you say to those people?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Re: He Who is Convinced Against His Will, Is of the Same Opinion Still

Once again believing in Him is not just mere belief ( Just believing He existed and died on the cross and rose on the third day )

Believing also requires doing the requirements He said one must meet to be saved, and if you still say works are meaningless you demolish His word. Including Matthew 25 that I keep showing you, and you refuse to accept. Matthew 25 is Jesus words, not mine. He shows works are very much a part of salvation, and those that do not produce good works are headed for condemnation of hell fire.

But here is what doing the Father's will is:

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (Great Eternal Security passage, John 6)

So if you would do the Father's will, trust the Lord Jesus right now as your Savior instead of "chance-giver."



Keep reading. This is the hypothetical justification by keeping the law. It is only hypothetical since no one keeps the commandments. The Lord Jesus let the air out of his self-righteous bag of hot air, convicting the young man of not keeping the commandments. The passage goes on to declare that with man salvation is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Read on. Salvation is precisely what sinners need; validation of works will not happen.

James is irrelevant. James neither asserts nor denies eternal security. Yes, true faith does issue in good works. What else is new?



Since salvation is offered over & over just for believing/ faith, nothing else, water baptism cannot be essential. It is also true that if you believe & eat beans you will be saved. But the beans are not essential. Moreover, water baptism is a human work, which is excluded from being saving. (Not of works lest anyone should boast). Also note that the 2nd part doesn't mention baptism, only "not believe." Also, water is not mentioned in the passage. Thus I take it to be Spirit Baptism as that is salvific, but it is not a human work; Spirit baptism is something the Lord does to a man, everyone who trusts Christ as Savior, putting the man into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13). It is not something a human does.

Romans 6 has no water. It has baptism into Christ, not into water. This makes sense as Spirit baptism also, as Spirit baptism puts a man into the Church the Body of Christ. The baptism into Christ of Romans 6 puts us in Christ & thus on the cross with Him when He died, crucifying the Old Man.

I already explained Mat 10 to you: Tribulation, not salvation to Heaven. But by eternal security all believers do endure. So it is irrelevant. Mat 10 says nothing about losing salvation. Lose & salvation never occur together in any verse in the Bible.

You won't be staying the course to the end; you will be sinning probably every day. But a true believer in Christ, as opposed to someone who thinks he can demote Christ to "chance giver," does endure in salvation to the end.

Being a disciple costs everything, but salvation is free. 2 different subjects.

Will this be the day that you trust Christ as only & sufficient Savior, and you repent of having down-graded Him to "chance-giver"

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

Proof?
Is it not strange how Cassian thinks he can just pontificate? If wants to disgust Adam, he needs to prove things from scripture.

I did, but you have eliminated so much of scripture in your Bible you no longer recognize most of it.
Adam fell, thus he was not perfect. Perfect means he had attained immortality which precludes a human being from sinning. He was created immature, and needed to mature, just like all believers. I know, that is not in your scripture. YOu are saved in an instant from imperfect to perfect in just 10 seconds and the rest of one's life is irrelevant. YOu should drop that predestination theology, it just does not align with scripture.

Nonsense, more Sola Cassiana.
And I can't see any reason why you should be included in the "we" who are saved. For you don't believe you are saved.

I had the distinct impression some time ago that you thought yourself to be God and can actually pass judgement.

Before the fall Adam was not saved; He never had sinned.

Adam did not have the promises that sinners have regarding salvation. There is no hint that He had the indwelling Holy Spirit, either.

I already explained this to you. I know it might be above your grade level on theology since you don't really have a grasp of scripture even.

And Cassian just runs on, claiming this & that. As if anyone should believe just for him saying it.

historical, theological fact of why God created man. It is readily available for any who desire to be a Berean. Check it out, you might actually learn something for a change.

So, all you have are dismissives, non substantive content because you have nothing to refute scripture. Seems about normal for you in this thread.You just cannot find the evidence for eternal security outside of your personal opinion, since you don't want to give credit to Calvin for coming up with the errant theological system that employed OSAS as one of it tenets.
YOur barrel has been bare for some time in this thread.

 

[Atwood]

The eternal security doctrine is based on works of the flesh and not the cross. It is based on baptism ( works), church attendance ( works) and being sinless when you know you are in sin. The wages of sin is death. The only thing that cleanses sin is the blood of the cross.

Vot der Dumboozle!
Eternal security is not based on works, but on the fact that Christ paid for all our sins on the cross, and offers us eternal life for trusting Him as Savior (not as "chance-giver"). If the only thing that cleanses sin is Christ's blood on the cross, then any sins you commit that were not paid for on the cross are unpardonable; you would not be cleansed for those sins. But since Christ's blood cleanses from all sin, and since salvation is offered to you as a free, gift His blood did pay for all your sins.

The cross forgives of sin past. present and future. How can you be forgiven of a sin that you have not yet done?

There is no basis of forgiveness besides Christ's death on the cross. When he died you were not even born, you had not yet sinned (except in Adam). He was your substitute on the cross, taking the punishment you deserve for all your sins; all of them were future. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin.

Can you trust Him as SAvior, not just as chance-giver?

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. (that includes forgiveness and much more).

 

[Atwood]

How to Accomplish Nothing in a Post

Just drone on & rant. Make no argument from scripture.

The entrance of God's word brings light.
There are the words of eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death,
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

He is the Savior, not the "chance-giver"

 

[Atwood]

Re: He Who is Convinced Against His Will, Is of the Same Opinion Still

But here is what doing the Father's will is:

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (Great Eternal Security passage, John 6)

So if you would do the Father's will, trust the Lord Jesus right now as your Savior instead of "chance-giver."

Will this be the day that you trust Christ as only & sufficient Savior, and you repent of having down-graded Him to "chance-giver"

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Believing also requires doing the requirements He said one must meet to be saved, and if you still say works are meaningless you demolish His word. Including Matthew 25 that I keep showing you, and you refuse to accept. Matthew 25 is Jesus words, not mine. He shows works are very much a part of salvation, and those that do not produce good works are headed for condemnation of hell fire.

By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

To take a passage about judgment of gentiles on how they treated Christ's brethren as the plan of salvation is a serious error.

Over & over salvation is by grace through faith, while judgment is by works.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.
Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.

John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believes him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes hath eternal life.

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

1 John 5:10-12
He that believes on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believes not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.
Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto Jehovah;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.


Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believes on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he that believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith saith thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.


Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

 

[Atwood]

How Many R Deluded into Thinking that Mat 25 is About Salvation?

The words "save" and salvation do not occur in Matthew 25. The topic is judgment, not salvation. this is the famous Sheep & Goat Gentile judgment before the Millennium, where the issue is how they treated Christ's brethren.

The topic is not salvation.

Salvation is about being delivered from being a sinner and having eternal life as a free gift.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

Good works are evidence of salvation, however.

Eph 2

And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

 

[Stephen63]

Originally Posted by Atwood

Wrong. You mean that the KJV mistranslates judgment as damnation?

Have you oozed andperused through all the scripture I posted for eternal security? It is quite a bit. Do you request a re-posting? I may have posted it over 20 times now.


Consider the evidence. The Lord Jesus really is the Savior, not a mere "chance-giver"

Hebrews 2:1-4 (NASB) [SUP]1 [/SUP]For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, [SUP]3 [/SUP]how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, [SUP]4 [/SUP]God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

The Preacher's Outline & Sermon Bible- Commentary
3. (2:3-4) Judgment— Salvation: this is the second reason we must not slip away from salvation. Judgment under the Lord's Word is to be much more severe than judgment under the law. Why? There are three reasons.
1. There shall be no escape from judgment because salvation is so great. Think of all the sin and evil upon earth: the lying, cheating, stealing, and killing; the acts of terror, slaughter, and war; the immorality, adultery, and obscenities; the dirt, filth, and pollution of behavior; the broken homes, hurt, and pain; the disease, accidents, and suffering. Think of death. Think of all this evil, and yet there is still so much more evil in the world that we could never even come close to listing it.
This is what salvation is; this is what makes salvation so great.
⇒ Salvation is the deliverance from all the evil and suffering and death of this world. Imagine being delivered from all the corruption of this world! That is what salvation is. But in addition to this it is so much more.
⇒ Salvation saves us for God and it delivers us to God. Salvation makes us acceptable to God, and it gives us eternal life, the glorious privilege of living forever with God. But salvation is even more than this.
⇒ Salvation gives us a new heaven and earth, a perfect world in which to live and work forever and ever—a world in which there will be no suffering or death (see notes—[SUP]•[/SUP]Hebrews 2:5-8 for more discussion). But salvation is even more than this.
⇒ Salvation is to be reward heaped upon reward. There are to be mansions and enormous dwelling places. There are to be crowns, and ruling and reigning, duties and responsibilities—a glorious life of serving and worshipping the Lord God Himself—forever and ever. But having said this, salvation is even more.
⇒ Salvation gives us a Savior, the Son of God Himself, even the Lord Jesus Christ. It gives us a Savior who loves us—who has loved us so much that he sacrificed His life and died for us. It gives us a Savior whom we can love and serve, a Savior to whom we can commit our lives and loyalty and know that it is for the highest good.
So much more could be said, but the picture is clear. If we neglect so great a salvation, how shall we escape? We cannot. There is no way God will ever let us escape if we neglect the salvation of His own Son.
2. There shall be no escape from judgment because the word of salvation was given by the Lord Himself. He did not send the gospel of salvation to earth through angels. He Himself brought the gospel of salvation to men. He, the Sovereign Lord and Majesty of the universe, is the Person who has brought salvation to us; and He did it by dying for us. He, the Son of God, sacrificed His life for us. If we neglect so great a salvation, the judgment that will fall upon us is bound to be much more severe. Picture a man who neglects the salvation of Christ, who...
• ignores Christ
• shows contempt for Christ
• makes light of Christ
• does not think Christ is worth the commitment
• rebels against Christ
• denies Christ
• rejects Christ
• curses Christ
When God has given His own Son to the world and men treat Him this way, what can man expect? An honest man knows the answer. There will be no escape for the person who neglects and curses so great a salvation.
3. There shall be no escape from judgment because there have been so many witnesses to salvation. The Lord Himself was the first to bear witness of salvation; then the eyewitnesses of His life upon earth proclaimed the salvation that is in Him. And note: God Himself bore testimony by giving the disciples power to work signs and wonders and many miracles. In addition to this, God endowed believers with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. God changed the lives of believers and gave them the power and gifts to live for Him and to serve Him in carrying forth the message of salvation to a world that is lost and dying.
The point is this: with so many witnesses, no person can ever expect to escape the judgment of God if he neglects the salvation of Christ—not when the two primary witnesses are God Himself and the Lord Jesus Christ, God's very own Son.

So, What about this one?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Re: How Many R Deluded into Thinking that Mat 25 is About Salvation?

You better read again, verse 46 these go into eternal life.....

The words "save" and salvation do not occur in Matthew 25. The topic is judgment, not salvation. this is the famous Sheep & Goat Gentile judgment before the Millennium, where the issue is how they treated Christ's brethren.

The topic is not salvation.

Salvation is about being delivered from being a sinner and having eternal life as a free gift.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

Good works are evidence of salvation, however.

Eph 2

And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Once again it goes against your belief, so you want to change its meaning to match your reasoning which is not correct. It applies to judgment and salvation ( eternal life ). The other reason you don't want it to say what it says is because it goes against your belief in two separate judgments.

Scripture makes it clear that sheep are believers in Christ, goats are non-believers and they get separated at the same time for judgment.

Jesus does not judge non-believers twice which is what your theology would suggest. This brings me back to Revelations 20 were you and EG try to say this is all non-believers, that all the believers were already judged and given their rewards. The problem with that is it says the Book of Life was opened. Why would our Lord need to open the Book of Life if the believers were already judged. There would be no need here for this book, our Lord would already know they are non-believers and are not in the book.



That would be like opening a phone book to get some ones number when you already know their number by heart. What is the point you don't need to look it up.

 

[Atwood]

Re: How Many R Deluded into Thinking that Mat 25 is About Salvation?

You better read again, verse 46 these go into eternal life.....

Yes, that is the outcome of this judgment. But still salvation is not the topic. It makes sense that works follow salvation. Then when one is at judgment, the works are examined. The works do not save, but they are the result of salvation. And judgment addresses works. And BTW, why were they not asked about being baptized with water??? This is a special judgment that follows Christ's return to earth. It is not the judgment of the Church nor of the lost in this age (they go to the Great White Throne Judgment in Rev 20).

You confuse judgment with salvation. Salvation is the topic of what to do about the fact that I am a sinner? How do I get a change in nature with the guarantee of eternal life?

ph 2

And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

 

[Atwood]

Once again it goes against your belief, so you want to change its meaning to match your reasoning which is not correct. It applies to judgment and salvation ( eternal life ). The other reason you don't want it to say what it says is because it goes against your belief in two separate judgments.

No, salvation is not the topic. Salvation is by grace through faith apart from works. Or don't you believe God's Word? Judgment is indeed by works. Salvation and judgment are not the same at all. Now what verse do you have for "salvation"? What does salvation mean? Here is what it means:

"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins." Where is anyone saved from sins in Mat 25??? Give me the verse.

Scripture makes it clear that sheep are believers in Christ, goats are non-believers and they get separated at the same time for judgment.

Prove it Kenneth. Unless you are blind you will see that there are 3 groups: Sheep, Goats, and Christ's brethren. Read the passage again.

Jesus does not judge non-believers twice which is what your theology would suggest. This brings me back to Revelations 20 were you and EG try to say this is all non-believers, that all the believers were already judged and given their rewards. The problem with that is it says the Book of Life was opened. Why would our Lord need to open the Book of Life if the believers were already judged. There would be no need here for this book, our Lord would already know they are non-believers and are not in the book.

There is no such book as "Revelations." At the Great White Throne judgment, it says nothing about believers. It says nothing about anyone going to Heaven or to the New Earth. Does the text say why the Book of Life was opened? If it doesn't, then why make up a reason? Could it be to demonstrate that no one is saved? Quote me a verse that says someone goes to Heaven from that judgment. That one is far removed from the time of Christ's return.

No, I never said that unbelievers are judged twice, but so what if they are? Do you have a verse to prove they are not? I don't know any way to prove it one way or another nor what difference it makes. If they are then once would be to Hades & the next to the Lake of Fire.

Now your passage, Mat 25 does not mention salvation, no one is saved from sin in it; it is just a judgment. And it has nothing to do with eternal security. Salvation is by grace through faith as repeated over & over. Did you read the verses? Mat 25 has to conform to all those passages. Also eternal security is repeated enough times, & Mat 25 has nothing to do with that. However you interpret Mat 25 you must eliminate salvation by works, for that is very clearly negated by scripture. On the other hand, judgment is by works.

 

[Atwood]

Hebrews 2:1-4 (NASB) [SUP]1 [/SUP]For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, [SUP]3 [/SUP]how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

Indeed, how will we escape? When will you trust the Lord Jesus as Savior instead of as "chance-giver"? The salvation is great; It is to the uttermost. Christ is the author & finisher of our faith. He guarantees it:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

That is some great salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the scripture proves you deny God in good works, the scripture proves you refuse to walk the way we were ordained to walk, the scripture proves you are disobedient to the faith.
you say a man must not work because it trying to earn salvation

Well thanks you just proved me right.
1. You prove you do not listen to a thing a person says
2. I have proved I do not deny works. I have proved I show a person who has true faith will work. (a thought you deny, you evidently think a person can have mere belief and work, which is against the word of God
3. I do not condemn works. Those of faith (including myself) do work. (we are not perfect), Works used to earn, gain, not lose, or keep salvation are what I am denying, You know the same works paul had an outcry against. Then again, if you will not listen to paul. I should not expect you to listen to anyone else.

you deny the way we are ordained to walk

you deny followers of Christ are saved

No, I teach we are ORDAINED, SAVED, CREATED IN CHRIST, EMPOWERED BY CHRIST to work. but you can't see that, because your to narrow minded, anly seeing what you want to see, and not reading what I actually have said.

I deny those who are working to GAIN, RECEIVE, KEEP FROM LOSING, salvation. for those are works of men, not God.