Free Gifts Come With Conditions....
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For what specifically do I need to provide scripture for? I have an answer for all.
Ecclesiastes 12:7-8
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
Luke 16:22-31
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
How does these prove me wrong? About everlasting torment? Abraham could not bridge the gap, but I know of One who can!
DEATH AND HELL! Are those people? No!! These concepts of life, as it continues to have less and less to do with actual life itself is again being destroyed. And again it is called the second death. Why? Because it is only appointed for men to die ONCE! 1, number uno, etc...
Romans 6:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
WE ARE DEAD WITH CHRIST! As is appointed, every man will die once. So now that we have all died, how then are we still living????
Galatians 2:20
[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
So now in saying that, we get to the other verse you posted:
Now to quote what I said earlier in addition to this verse.
All of us died with Christ. So it is not us that lives, but Christ that lives in us. So then it is US who are cast ALIVE into the fire BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE!
Now the bible states that GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE (I hope I don't need the verse for this too). What does this mean? God is a consuming fire which tortures those being cast alive forever, burning with brimstone. We don't see no flames, so what is going on?
Proverbs 25:21-22
[SUP]21 [/SUP]If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee.
Romans 12:17-21
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
If you, being a sinner, is saved by Christ, is it a good thing that He saves all sinners? If you and whoever does not think so then it is you all that is being tormented, cast alive into the lake of fire, in which I and others will overcome evil by doing good!
Ecclesiastes 12:7-8
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
Luke 16:22-31
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
How does these prove me wrong? About everlasting torment? Abraham could not bridge the gap, but I know of One who can!
DEATH AND HELL! Are those people? No!! These concepts of life, as it continues to have less and less to do with actual life itself is again being destroyed. And again it is called the second death. Why? Because it is only appointed for men to die ONCE! 1, number uno, etc...
Romans 6:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
WE ARE DEAD WITH CHRIST! As is appointed, every man will die once. So now that we have all died, how then are we still living????
Galatians 2:20
[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
So now in saying that, we get to the other verse you posted:
Now to quote what I said earlier in addition to this verse.
All of us died with Christ. So it is not us that lives, but Christ that lives in us. So then it is US who are cast ALIVE into the fire BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE!
Now the bible states that GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE (I hope I don't need the verse for this too). What does this mean? God is a consuming fire which tortures those being cast alive forever, burning with brimstone. We don't see no flames, so what is going on?
Proverbs 25:21-22
[SUP]21 [/SUP]If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee.
Romans 12:17-21
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
If you, being a sinner, is saved by Christ, is it a good thing that He saves all sinners? If you and whoever does not think so then it is you all that is being tormented, cast alive into the lake of fire, in which I and others will overcome evil by doing good!
Not if animal welfare takes it away...
I see your point, and I agree with it to a point. But the reality is that Jesus talks about knowing people by their fruit. A good tree produces only good fruit, and a bad tress bad fruit. You cannot be a good tree (have the gift of grace), and deny that gift by producing the exact same fruit you did before. This does not mean you must live perfectly, and it does not mean you are working for the gift. You are merely changed by it, and live in the light of it.
So yes, there will be those who get to the judgement seat, thinking they worked there way in, and will be turned away, because they did not trust in the Lord Jesus entirely for their salvation. But by the same token, there will be those who will turn up, feeling secure in their status as God's children, feeling that there was no way they could not have that status (the failing of the Jews for much of their history), only to be told they were never known.
It is not enough to claim special status - if you are a Child of God, a disciple of Jesus, you live accordingly. If you are given a puppy and treat it like trash, you're living as if you never had the puppy in the first place, you're denying the good things the puppy could bring. Jesus yearns to say to people "Well done, good and faithful servant" because that is how we earn salvation. He wants to say it because it is GOOD.
I see your point, and I agree with it to a point. But the reality is that Jesus talks about knowing people by their fruit. A good tree produces only good fruit, and a bad tress bad fruit. You cannot be a good tree (have the gift of grace), and deny that gift by producing the exact same fruit you did before. This does not mean you must live perfectly, and it does not mean you are working for the gift. You are merely changed by it, and live in the light of it.
So yes, there will be those who get to the judgement seat, thinking they worked there way in, and will be turned away, because they did not trust in the Lord Jesus entirely for their salvation. But by the same token, there will be those who will turn up, feeling secure in their status as God's children, feeling that there was no way they could not have that status (the failing of the Jews for much of their history), only to be told they were never known.
It is not enough to claim special status - if you are a Child of God, a disciple of Jesus, you live accordingly. If you are given a puppy and treat it like trash, you're living as if you never had the puppy in the first place, you're denying the good things the puppy could bring. Jesus yearns to say to people "Well done, good and faithful servant" because that is how we earn salvation. He wants to say it because it is GOOD.
If man has no part or role in his own salvation, then how does God decide whom He will or will not save?
Acts 2:40; 1 Tim 4:16; Phil 2:12 man does have a role in his salvation. Just as God freely sent the Hebrews manna, their role was in gathering in order to be filled. Even though God freely sent them manna they would have remained hungry if they did not fulfill their role in gathering the manna.
Man's role in salvation is obeying Christ Heb 5:9 and this role earns nothing as gathering the manna earned nothing but is simply a condition attached to a free gift.
Jesus did not tell God to labor for everlasting life. Jesus told His listeners to labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which He gives.
Just like the free manna required labor to gather it yet the gathering did not earn anything, the free gift of everlasting life require labor but the labor earns nothing.
Instead of delaying and twisting things, solve your problem in how to get the Hebrews eating the free manna WITHOUT them first having to conditionally work to gather it.
Just like the free manna required labor to gather it yet the gathering did not earn anything, the free gift of everlasting life require labor but the labor earns nothing.
Instead of delaying and twisting things, solve your problem in how to get the Hebrews eating the free manna WITHOUT them first having to conditionally work to gather it.
Jesus did not say believe only. "Faith only" blinders blinds people to where Jesus said one must repent, Lk 13:3,5; confess, Mt 10:32,33 and be baptized Mk 16:16 to be saved. So Jesus made repentance, confession and baptism as equally necessary to salvation as belief.
Belief>>>>>>>>>>saves
repentance>>>>>>saves
confession>>>>>>>saves
baptism>>>>>>>>saves
Since there is just one way to be saved then a biblical belief includes repentance confession and baptism and a belief is dead that does not have them.
No one can cherry-pick their way through the gospel and end up with the whole gospel truth.
Belief>>>>>>>>>>saves
repentance>>>>>>saves
confession>>>>>>>saves
baptism>>>>>>>>saves
Since there is just one way to be saved then a biblical belief includes repentance confession and baptism and a belief is dead that does not have them.
No one can cherry-pick their way through the gospel and end up with the whole gospel truth.
The Hebrews while in the wilderness became hungry and God gave them for free manna to eat. Yet to satisfy their hunger required they do the work of gathering the manna. Their work in gathering the manna did not take away from the "freeness" of God's gift to them, therefore the work of gathering earned them nothing.
Such a simple concept young people can understand yet adults allow themselves to blinded to it for no other reason than an allegiance to a man-made teaching.
Such a simple concept young people can understand yet adults allow themselves to blinded to it for no other reason than an allegiance to a man-made teaching.
Jn 6:31ff
Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Just as the Hebrews had to work in going and gathering the manna, if one desires the manna Jesus has then one must obediently come (present tense) to Christ. Doing nothing/faith only = no manna
Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Just as the Hebrews had to work in going and gathering the manna, if one desires the manna Jesus has then one must obediently come (present tense) to Christ. Doing nothing/faith only = no manna
Yet Christ said we have to be baptized...
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
And to receive the Holy Spirit is anything required?
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
And to receive the Holy Spirit is anything required?
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
I started this thread out with example after example of God's free gifts coming with conditions. Did not the Hebrews have to gather the free manna? Did not Naaman have to dip 7 times to have the free gift of healing? Did not the blind man have to dip in the pool for his free healing?
Jn 6:27 Jesus said to labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which he gives. Jesus GIVES everlasting life so it is freely given but one must labor for it and the laboring earns nothing just as the gathering did not earn the free manna or the dipping earned the free healing.
Jn 6:27 Jesus said to labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which he gives. Jesus GIVES everlasting life so it is freely given but one must labor for it and the laboring earns nothing just as the gathering did not earn the free manna or the dipping earned the free healing.
The free gift of manna did not come with the condition of gathering it?
Naaman's free gift of healing did not come with the condition of dipping?
The free gift of salvation comes with the condition of obedience to Christ Heb 5:9 and the obedience earns nothing no more than the gathering or dipping earned anything.
Naaman's free gift of healing did not come with the condition of dipping?
The free gift of salvation comes with the condition of obedience to Christ Heb 5:9 and the obedience earns nothing no more than the gathering or dipping earned anything.
I did nothing to deserve them, but out of your good grace to me your are giving me blueberries. Yet to get those free blueberries I must conditionally do the work of coming to you (as one must come to Christ for manna; Jn 6:35). If I do not do this work of coming and getting the free berries I will never get them even though they are free. Yet I do the work in going and getting the berries and that work means I earned them so they were not freely given by you to me?