Free Gifts Come With Conditions....

[newbirth]

Why can't I just believe the promise of John 3:15? Because if I believe John 3:16, I have been given eternal life - all the rest [outside works] will follow and I would be baptized with Holy Spirit. All set!

Do you just believe that verse or do you believe everything the Son said you must do? The scripture does not say believe in the verse it says believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe obey......
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[SeaBass]

No, but what does Naaman have to with works that come from faith concerning salvation? That's why I didn't answer the you wanted because your missing the point what I'm trying to say. Don't debate anything if you're not willing to establish some common ground.

The point is God's grace required the work of dipping yet that work did not earn Naaman's healing for it was by grace. So it is not debatable that Naaman's work earned his healing.

 

[SeaBass]

1.) I never said gathering wasn't a work, I said receiving a free gift is not a work.

2.) I asked you what you thought a work is for clarification because I was confused.

3.) We are arguing pro-grace. The way your reasoning seems as if you support both and oppose a work based faith which is confusing. Dude, listen to me. Please read your first post, and the one about asking the question about Naaman, they contradict what you're to say. You make it sound we have to make a payment on the free gift by continuing to do works, doing it that way means were renting it (or renting to own) and it's not ours. Jesus made the gift of salvation unconditional free to all, but accepting only means that you should have eternal life. Here's where the gray area clears up some: The works come from a living faith, meaning you do them because you want to change and you love God. If you do works because you feel that you have to do them to be saved (which it looks like your to advocate) You cheapen God's grace by trying to pay Him back or earn your salvation. This what I'm trying to say.

So let me get something else straight, you've literally done all of this?
Matthew 28:18-20Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

I already know you'll respond, because this isn't about setting the record straight (not anymore), this is about you not wanting to lose this debate, whether you want to admit it or not your letting your pride get in way. And of course you're going to deny it, but are to convince me, yourself, or God?

1) Since you admit gathering is a work, then did that work of gathering mean they earned/merited the manna or was the manna a free gift of God's grace?

2) gathering is obviously a work.

3) you seem to not understand my op. Did Naaman doing the work of dipping in the river mean he earned his healing? Of course not for his healing was by grace and his obedient work in dipping earned him nothing. That means the faith only proponents have no valid argument when they falsely claims obedient works are an attempt to earn something.


Rom 4:4, can the work of being obedient to God's will make one's reward of debt and not of grace?

 

[SeaBass]

You did. You pay for it by taking care of it (work). It was prevelent in the OT. People paid for things with their time and hard work all the time. In fact they could pay of their debt owed someone by doing this.

In Post #243 I posted "If you are given a puppy for free but it comes with the condition you must work to take care of it (feed, water, bathe, take to vet) then how does your work in taking care of the puppy take away from the fact it was given to you for free? "

I said "you are given a puppy for FREE". So I did not say you had to pay for the puppy. You're straining very hard not to understand a very simple concept.

Then it was not free You had to pay for it by taking the time, hard work, and money required to take care of it.

Again, the puppy was given to you FOR FREE. Just because you have to do work in taking care of the free puppy does not mean you paid money to get it. It was free, the puppy cost you nothing to get it. Again, your straining hard not to understand a very simple concepts.

1. God did not put conditions, your forcing conditions.
2. The puppy was not free, yes you did not pay money for it. You paid the hard work to keep it. thus it still was not free. Again, this example is shown over and over in the OT. You pay debts off with work like this. So you were EARNING your freedom of debt.

We owe a debt to God. The debt is our life (since we are condemned. That debt must be paid for. That is the ONLY condition placed on salvation.

So who paid the debt? You and all your many conditions? Or Jesus on the cross.

You need to choose.

Sure God pu conditions on His free gift of salvation.

The unbeliever cannot be saved, so God put the condition of belief on His free gift of salvation, Jn 8:24

Th impenitent cannot be saved so God put the condition of repentance on His free gift, Lk 13:3,5.

The denier of Christ cannot be saved so God put the condition of confession upon His free gift of salvation < Mt 10:32,33; Rom 10:9,10

Those lost in the unremitted/unforgiven sins cannot be saved so God put the condition of baptism for remission of sins upon His free gift, Acts 2:38.



Again, the puppy was given up front for FREE. So no matter how much hard work I put in to take care of that free puppy, it was still given to me for FREE. No amount of work I ever do in taking care of the puppy can ever mean I earned it. Faith only puts in a very awkward position in forcing you to not understand such a simple thing.

 

[SeaBass]

Naaman was healed according to the law. Or have you not read the law, and what a person had to do to become clean?

We are not saved by the law.

What work did the lame man do to have his sin forgiven (be healed) You know. the one Jesus said what is the difference if I say you sins are forgiven, or rise up and walk? What condition did he meat?

How about the many blind men and women, or the lepars which did nothing before they were healed.

You seem to like picking one verse and making a whole doctrine out of it, When there are so MANY MANY MANY examples of the same healing performed with NO CONDITIONS.

So now you argue Naaman's healing was NOT by grace but by law?


There are some cases where God's grace is unconditional. We unconditionally all have air to breath by the grace of God.

Yet when it comes to NT salvation God's grace is ALWAYS conditional. The examples I gave at the beginning of this thread prove that God's grace can be conditional and working to meet those condtions earns nothing. Naaman is a perfect example of his healing was by grace but that grace CONDITIONALLY required he do the work of dipping but the work earned him nothing.

 

[SeaBass]

He does not understand that the manna was theirs whether they gathered it or not. The work was to BENEFIT from the thing which was already given to them for free. or not benefiting from it.

The gathering was not required to make it theirs, it was theirs the moment God gave it to them (before they even woke up)

They were going to die of hunger without food and were complaining for lack of something to eat, Ex 16:3. So God sent them manna to sustain life. So how would they live if they did not do the work of gathering the manna? They would have died if that sat and did nothing but just look at the manna. They did not have faith only that God would miraculously fill their stomachs while that sat and did nothing. God's grace sent them the manna to sustain lives and their receiving that life saving grace required their work in gathering it. Siting and doing nothing (faith only) would be a rejection of God's gracious gift of manna.

 

[SeaBass]

Why can't I just believe the promise of John 3:15? Because if I believe John 3:16, I have been given eternal life - all the rest [outside works] will follow and I would be baptized with Holy Spirit. All set!

But do you accept that Jn 3:15 does NOT say "believe only"?
Do you accept that Jn 3:15 is NOT the only salvic verse in the bible?
Do you accept that in other salvic verses Jesus made repentance, Lk 13:3,5 confession Mt 10:32,33 and baptism Mk 16:16 just as necessary and essential to salvation as He did with believing?

 

[SeaBass]

I think maybe the word 'conditions' in the title is not the right word, maybe 'receive' is better. God gives us gifts, anyone can give us gifts but if we don't receive it (take it) it's still ours but it hurts the giver.
And He doesn't give us gifts because we are so great, it's because of His love, mercy and kindness towards us.

SO Naaman would NOT have "received" God's healing grace had he not conditionally did the work of dipping. So it was by his obedient work he received God's grace.