No trust in Creation...no trust in Genesis....no trust in Scriptures...

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Is creation a "salvation issue"

  • Yes it's vital to mans need for salvation

    Votes: 14 53.8%
  • No creation is unconnected to salvation

    Votes: 10 38.5%
  • Never considered any connection

    Votes: 2 7.7%

  • Total voters
    26
  • Poll closed .
Nov 2, 2013
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Recently I have been doing some street work with young folks and a constant theme with them, is that they are bombarded in school, college and the media in general ( see EVERY NATURAL HISTORY PROGRAM ON THE TV) with the theory that the world evolved. This leads them then to diss any idea of a creation based history of the world and therefore a disbelief in the book of Genesis as the truth of God's word. Once you compromise on Genesis, you compromise on the basic principles of our faith....sin entering the world as a result of man's disobedience, death as a result of sin, mans separation from God and the need for salvation, Satan as a reality, marriage between a man and a women etc.
In My opinion a rejection of creation is possibly Satan's greatest achievement and one which he has successfully propagated throughout history......
Many Christians state that A belief in Creation is not something to get too "worked up about" as it is not really a "salvation matter"......I beg to differ. It is possibly the biggest stumbling block to the non christians ability to see their need for Salvation ......
evolution is Satanic in origin and must be tackled everywhere it is encountered!!
The mortality of humans will prevail when the mind is left a spiritual waste. Engage the minds, give the flint stone with encouragement to spark the spiritual rebirth of humanity.

[SUP] [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.[SUP]16 [/SUP]No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Do you agree "I" is inside? If so read Genesis 1:1 and Revelations 22:21. Now from those two verses explain....[SUP]13 [/SUP]I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

When the flint is hit and this dim light shines within you will understand that THE WORD, God's Word, is not the word of man as it is written down but God's Word is divine and comes from within. Set your eyes upon the scriptures and ask God to free your mind from bondage.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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Recently I have been doing some street work with young folks and a constant theme with them, is that they are bombarded in school, college and the media in general ( see EVERY NATURAL HISTORY PROGRAM ON THE TV) with the theory that the world evolved. This leads them then to diss any idea of a creation based history of the world and therefore a disbelief in the book of Genesis as the truth of God's word.
There's zero scientific evidence for a young Earth in which all species were created as is. There's an abundance of evidence pointing towards an Earth in which species gradually evolved over time.

Once you compromise on Genesis, you compromise on the basic principles of our faith....sin entering the world as a result of man's disobedience, death as a result of sin, mans separation from God and the need for salvation, Satan as a reality, marriage between a man and a women etc.
Wrong.

You can accept the theory of evolution and still hold the idea that sin entered the world through man, still hold the idea that God is needed for salvation, and still hold the idea that marriage is between one man and one woman. The only idea you compromise is the idea that death is the result of sin since death occurred before man existed.

In My opinion a rejection of creation is possibly Satan's greatest achievement and one which he has successfully propagated throughout history......
Science supports evolution. That's reality.

Many Christians state that A belief in Creation is not something to get too "worked up about" as it is not really a "salvation matter"......I beg to differ. It is possibly the biggest stumbling block to the non christians ability to see their need for Salvation ......
Darn science!

I want to say that accepting the theory of evolution doesn't lead people from rejecting the idea of God. However, that's not necessarily the case. Many Christians who grow up being taught that we were created by God question the validity of the Bible when the see all the evidence that supports the theory of evolution. However, there are many people who grow up believing in God and accepting evolution as fact - in which case evolution plays much less a role in making them doubt their faith.

Trust me, there are numerous reasons why people stop believing in God. There are many reasons why many non-believers aren't convinced of his existence. I believe the concept of hell makes more people question the validity of the Bible than evolution, though that is speculation.

Poor school training in math and english and arythmetic and science is the cause of believe in the religion of evolution
Evolution isn't a religion. You call it a religion because you know absolutely nothing about why people accept it as fact. If you knew anything about evolution, you would at least be sensible to call it a flawed belief. But to call it a religion is projection.

it is impossible for life to form itself

each cell has 13000 protien molecules some as large as a million daltons which have to be creaated in the same microsecond or the cell wall will impled

this is HARDER to create one cell than to simultaneoulsly create the entire internet and all computers in the world with one lightning strike
Not a single person who accepts the theory of evolution argues that life was instantly complex in the beginning. In fact, the theory of evolution doesn't even deal with how life began. It only deals with how life evolved.

Cells are incredibly complex, but they weren't always like that. They started off much more simpler. I'm not well versed in abiogenesis so my ability to explain how cells formed is limited. But, you've most likely heard it all before and dismissed it because it didn't fit what you believe evolution is.

What you believe evolution to be, isn't what evolutionary theory actually suggests.

Believing in evolution is total doubt and unbelief in the bible and god and those people even though they call themselves christian, dont havee the faith needed to make it into heaven.
Actually, YOU'RE the one who has trouble seeing how evolution and God can co-exist. Therefore you assume it's impossible to hold the view that both can co-exist. This is why you don't believe people who hold this co-existing view exist in this world. You're limited only to your own understanding and you have difficulties looking at the world from any point of view that isn't your own. This is why much of what you say is nonsense. OBVIOUSLY many people do have faith in God while also accepting evolution. To deny this is like denying the holocost or 9/11 ever happened.

My point was that most who believe in evolution go by Darwin's theory of evolving from one species to another in which he himself stated before he died there is no physical evidence to support his theory.
Darwin never said this.

There has been plenty of evidence supporting evolution based on cold weather species evolving to a warmer climate, or like I said before the different types of dogs we have now days that evolved from the wolf class.
"Wolf" isn't a class. The class of a wolf is mammalia. -.-

because it is false, it cant happen and is impossible

life cannot be created randomly
and God will not say he created things one way and then lie and do it another God cannot lie
evolution is satanic thats all there is to it.
Here's the problem with your argument.

You claim that God doesn't lie. Therefore the creation account must be accurate. However, you're CONSTANTLY lying about what evolution actually is, how it works, etc! And yes, I say "lie" because I've seen most of your points corrected before. Every time you misrepresent evolution and someone corrects you, you go back to posting the same flawed points. You should know better by now. I may have once believed Christians believed in God simply because they were afraid of death. But after talking to Christians and being corrected, I've stopped making such broad statements. I once believed Christians always formed God in their own image, in which God coincidentally thought the same way the individual thinks. But I also learned this is not always true and many people compromise what they think would be right to what they believe God says is right. Unlike you, I try to adapt what I learn to future claims I make.

For example:
each year trillions of animals replicate according to their kind and never a one missing link has been found that reproduced a different kind
so
scientifically creation is right and evolution is wrong
I know you've been corrected on this before on this website. Evolution doesn't suggest one species gives birth to an entirely different species. Evolution is an incredibly gradual process - like aging. It's like saying, "People don't grow old. I've never seen a person hop in bed fresh after their 18th birthday and wake up wrinkled and tired." Of course you're going to point out that we know people grow old because we observe it all the time. It's just gradual and you can only notice these changes over a lifespan. That's my point! Evolution, like aging, is a gradual process. And before you give me the whole "It hasn't ever been observed", keep in mind that you're missing the point. You claimed that evolution is the process in which one species gives birth to an entirely different species. Before you can claim there's no evidence, you need to fix your understanding of what evolutionary theory suggests first.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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"Christianity" and "Science" have the same problem - Men inserting their thoughts into it causes it to come out perverted. Real science is good, but science is always adapting to newly learned (whether true or not) information. Mainstream science today "needs" to hold onto evolution because if they admit how flawed it is, they will have to admit that there is a God.

P.S. A theory is an educated guess. Scientists make observations and then they come up with theories. A theory is tested until it becomes accepted. Some theories are, in fact, proven and cease to be theories. Others, though they become accepted by the entire scientific community, are never proven. Yes, you can get facts from theories, through tests, but until confirmed it remains a theory. That is how theories work - even in science.

the·o·ry
ˈTHēərē,ˈTHi(ə)rē/
noun
noun: theory; plural noun: theories

  • a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
    "Darwin's theory of evolution"
    [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
    [TD]hypothesis, thesis, conjecture, supposition, speculation, postulation, postulate, proposition, premise, surmise, assumption, presupposition; Moreopinion, view, belief, contention
    "I reckon that confirms my theory"


    principles, ideas, concepts;
    philosophy, ideology, system of ideas, science
    "modern economic theory"


    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]


    • a set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based.
      "a theory of education"


    • an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action.
      "my theory would be that the place has been seriously mismanaged"




 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
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Richard Dawkins, world famous atheist states in his book The Blind Watchmaker, "Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose".

Really. Nice observation.

He then goes on to argue why that is not so.

Why would Mr. Dawkins argue against the obvious? It is because he, as does much of the scientific community presuppose up front that there is no super naturalism, i.e. no God. They believe that there must be a naturalistic cause. And so the obvious answer is dismissed before any evidence is even considered. The basic definition of Science is knowledge. Should a scientist dismiss possibilities before even considering the evidence? That is indeed what they do. And that is why they cannot arrive at the correct answer. Because they refuse to believe it.

It is like going into a Math class and stating up front that the number 4 does not exist, and then trying to find the answer to 2+2. Through speculation and wild theories and billions of years they will come up with a lot of answers. But they will never come up with the right one, because they have dismissed it in the beginning.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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P.S. A theory is an educated guess.
Not in the realms of science. Please click the following link:

Scientific theory | Learn everything there is to know about Scientific theory at Reference.com

Richard Dawkins, world famous atheist states in his book The Blind Watchmaker, "Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose".

Really. Nice observation.

He then goes on to argue why that is not so.

Why would Mr. Dawkins argue against the obvious?
If you read the rest of his book, you would probably know.

It is because he, as does much of the scientific community presuppose up front that there is no super naturalism, i.e. no God. They believe that there must be a naturalistic cause. And so the obvious answer is dismissed before any evidence is even considered.
Wrong.

They do consider evidence. The problem is that there isn't any evidence. What evidence people do provide requires one to presuppose the existence of God. But presupposition must be left out of the equation in science.

The basic definition of Science is knowledge. Should a scientist dismiss possibilities before even considering the evidence?
What's evidence for you is seen as not evidence by scientists. Not because scientists rule out that creationism didn't happen before observing the evidence, but because the evidence is flawed.

It is like going into a Math class and stating up front that the number 4 does not exist, and then trying to find the answer to 2+2.
The problem is, all evidence points to evolution. This analogy works better to describe creationism, in which the student says, "see, this book says 4 doesn't exist."
 
Jun 5, 2014
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The problem is, all evidence points to evolution.
If it didn't, why would people like the Pope and Pat Robertson accept evolution?

I have asked, several times, why was the date 4004 BC right next to the verses in Genesis 1 taken out of the King James Version? That date was in the KJV for a couple hundred years. None of these Young Earth Creationists who are posting on this thread seem to have an answer. At least not one they want to share.
 
Nov 2, 2013
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Not in the realms of science. Please click the following link:

Scientific theory | Learn everything there is to know about Scientific theory at Reference.com



If you read the rest of his book, you would probably know.



Wrong.

They do consider evidence. The problem is that there isn't any evidence. What evidence people do provide requires one to presuppose the existence of God. But presupposition must be left out of the equation in science.



What's evidence for you is seen as not evidence by scientists. Not because scientists rule out that creationism didn't happen before observing the evidence, but because the evidence is flawed.



The problem is, all evidence points to evolution. This analogy works better to describe creationism, in which the student says, "see, this book says 4 doesn't exist."
All evidence points to evolution, absolutely. Problem with spirituality is it is difficult to provide evidence. When there is a piece to support spirituality the concept that goes along with it is so unrecognizable that people just pass by or ignore. Placing a hand on this side is tough but as was shown in my last post there is a way to see it from a distance.

Do you agree "I" is inside? If so read Genesis 1:1 -In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth... and Revelations 22:21-The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.... Now from those two verses explain-[SUP]13 [/SUP]I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
 
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Tintin

Guest
Evolution is absolutely a religion, it's a religion of naturalism. You take God out of the equation, you're replacing Christianity with a new religion, one that has no place for God. Are people really so blinded as to not notice this?!
 
T

Tintin

Guest
If it didn't, why would people like the Pope and Pat Robertson accept evolution?

I have asked, several times, why was the date 4004 BC right next to the verses in Genesis 1 taken out of the King James Version? That date was in the KJV for a couple hundred years. None of these Young Earth Creationists who are posting on this thread seem to have an answer. At least not one they want to share.
The Pope and Pat Robertson bow to the world's 'wisdom' rather than God's wisdom. That's why they accept evolution to be true. There are so many problems with evolutionary beliefs and yet the big wigs of 'Christianity' can't see it? I'd say that's because they're compromising. The wolves have been among the sheep for so long, that the sheep no longer recognise the truth.
 
Jun 5, 2014
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The Pope and Pat Robertson bow to the world's 'wisdom' rather than God's wisdom.
That would be what you would say to anyone who doesn't agree with you, right?

My take is that people like the Pope and Pat Robertson (and me) considered the preponderance of the evidence regarding evolution and the age of the earth, and made a rational decision.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
That would be what you would say to anyone who doesn't agree with you, right?

My take is that people like the Pope and Pat Robertson (and me) considered the preponderance of the evidence regarding evolution and the age of the earth, and made a rational decision.
No, absolutely not. And you know it. If I disagree with someone, I look into what they're saying and see if it lines up with God's Word. If I'm found to be wrong, it's important to swallow my pride and be teachable. If I'm found to be right, it's important to swallow my pride and be teachable but stand up for the authority of God's Word. In this case, I've read countless resources about the topic in question and come to my own conclusions based on God's Word. We need to read out from the Bible and interpret everything by it, not read into the Bible, taking with us humanistic beliefs.
 
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It's unfortunate, really, that creationists are willing to forgo their intellectual integrity by selectively citing poorly-sourced, unsubstantiated material in the name of a point of view whose credibility is utterly absent in the scientific realm.
Exactly. Intellectual dishonesty at it's finest.
 
Jun 5, 2014
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In this case, I've read countless resources about the topic in question and come to my own conclusions based on God's Word.
The problem could be with your resources.

How many museums have you visited throughout the world? I assume you have seen some dinosaur bones somewhere.

You believe that the earth is around 6,000 years old, right?

If so, you then believe that dinosaurs and humans existed on the earth at the same time, right?
 
Jun 18, 2014
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Recently I have been doing some street work with young folks and a constant theme with them, is that they are bombarded in school, college and the media in general ( see EVERY NATURAL HISTORY PROGRAM ON THE TV) with the theory that the world evolved. This leads them then to diss any idea of a creation based history of the world and therefore a disbelief in the book of Genesis as the truth of God's word. Once you compromise on Genesis, you compromise on the basic principles of our faith....sin entering the world as a result of man's disobedience, death as a result of sin, mans separation from God and the need for salvation, Satan as a reality, marriage between a man and a women etc.
In My opinion a rejection of creation is possibly Satan's greatest achievement and one which he has successfully propagated throughout history......
Many Christians state that A belief in Creation is not something to get too "worked up about" as it is not really a "salvation matter"......I beg to differ. It is possibly the biggest stumbling block to the non christians ability to see their need for Salvation ......
evolution is Satanic in origin and must be tackled everywhere it is encountered!!
When I was a child, one of the first things I was ever taught was 'good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell'. My primary school was Christian. They would have us sing christian songs in assemblies, teach the creation of the Earth in school and I never learned about the scientific explanations until I was maybe six or seven.

So I got both - creation first.

My first years were full of questioning. I would question everything. At Sunday school I would ask 'but why? But how?'

The more I got into talking about God with the minister, the more I learned, and the more I questioned. It's like that old saying 'the biggest islands of knowledge have the largest shores of wonder'. It got to the point that the minister genuinely didn't have any more answers. His reaction was to get angry and spew me the old 'that's just how it is, don't question it'.

That was the last time I ever went to church outside funerals and weddings, but I continued to look for answers to both my questions about discrepancies in Christian theology and about the world. I had a thirst for both from a young age. I, for what ever reason, tended to see through things and look for deeper meanings.

So, it's certainly not the case with me that science was an indoctrination, because it wasn't. I studied physics, chemistry and biology in high school and kept that interest up until this day, just like I studied religion in high school and kept that interest up until this day.

Belief in evolution wasn't forced upon me, but it made simple sense. Science, for me, has always been a case of simplicity; the logic therein works. Now, I know you disagree, but do you understand the science behind evolution or do you ignore it, throw it out, hate it and mock it rather than thirst to understand it?

Because there is absolutely no harm in understanding another person's theory, especially one you oppose. In fact I would consider it essential if you want to properly refute their argument.
 
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Tintin

Guest
The problem could be with your resources.

How many museums have you visited throughout the world? I assume you have seen some dinosaur bones somewhere.

You believe that the earth is around 6,000 years old, right?

If so, you then believe that dinosaurs and humans existed on the earth at the same time, right?
I've read resources from both sides of the coin. It would be impossible not too. Evolutionary beliefs are found everywhere in the world, you can't escape them. But yes, I also learned about the biblical creation understanding. I haven't visited many museums in the world, but in Australia, yes a few and all point to millions and billions of years as being truth. I'd expect nothing less from non-Christians but from Christians? Come on! Even as a child I distrusted dinosaur exhibits etc. and became increasingly annoyed with their evolutionary bull. It was easy to see through, that if we were to use our God-given brains and give the Bible its dues as the inherent word of God - the ultimate authority of our lives, that evolution and its other belief system variants don't read like something of reason but rather like fairy tales for adults - minus the wonder. Yes, I believe the whole of creation is around 6,000 years and that humans and dinosaurs walked the earth together. Dinosaurs were created one day prior to man.
 
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Dec 18, 2013
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The problem could be with your resources.

How many museums have you visited throughout the world? I assume you have seen some dinosaur bones somewhere.

You believe that the earth is around 6,000 years old, right?

If so, you then believe that dinosaurs and humans existed on the earth at the same time, right?
Yes humans and dinosaurs existed on earth at the same time both pre-Flood and post-Flood. Remember the word dinosaur was not even invented until the 1800s AD. Several historians both Christians and non-Christians record the existence of dinosaurs in direct written record from Thucydides to Marco Polo. Dinosaurs as you think of them today are even depicted in ancient artwork.
 
Jun 18, 2014
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I've read resources from both sides of the coin. It would be impossible not too. Evolutionary beliefs are found everywhere in the world, you can't escape them. But yes, I also learned about the biblical creation understanding. I haven't visited many museums in the world, but in Australia, yes a few and all point to millions and billions of years as being truth. I'd expect nothing less from non-Christians but from Christians? Come on! Even as a child I distrusted dinosaur exhibits etc. and became increasingly annoyed with their evolutionary bull. It was easy to see through, that if we were to use our God-given brains and give the Bible its dues as the inherent word of God - the ultimate authority of our lives, that evolution and its other belief system variants don't read like something of reason but rather like fairy tales for adults - minus the wonder.
Might the reason for your distrust of evolutionary theory be because you believed in the literal 6 day creation in the first place? It stands to reason that if you actively deny something the first time you're presented with it, regardless of evidence, it will never be viable for you. This is actually a well known defence mechanism.

Perhaps you think that if evolution is true then the bible is false and that scares you? The reality is, Tintin, that evolutionary theory and faith don't have to contradict one another. Many scientists who believe in evolution are Christian. Many would often cite the biblical verse 'a day is like an age to God' and that would explain the fact that scientific analysis of life on Earth shows it to be older than 6,000 years. This would also reconcile with evidence that the period of time from dust and space-rocks until life on Earth was billions of years.

The two don't have to be at odds, at least that's what lots of other Christians think about it.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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All evidence points to evolution, absolutely. Problem with spirituality is it is difficult to provide evidence.
Yes, it is. Perhaps it's impossible to prove considering the proposed nature of spirituality. This is why spirituality is, so far, separate from science.

When there is a piece to support spirituality the concept that goes along with it is so unrecognizable that people just pass by or ignore.
From what I've seen, the evidence has always been either presumptuous or straight up wrong.

Evolution is absolutely a religion, it's a religion of naturalism. You take God out of the equation, you're replacing Christianity with a new religion, one that has no place for God. Are people really so blinded as to not notice this?!
If that's your definition, then the theory of gravity is a religion. Germ theory is a religion. Electrical engineering is a religion. Geology is a religion. Math is a religion.

Your definition of religion is wrong. But even if we accept your definition of religion, it's so vague it loses all purpose in that everything is literally a religion. Everything that doesn't include God is a religion, and everything that includes God is a religion. Essentially, you just replaced the word "thing" with "religion". Every thing is a religion.

People call evolution a religion because they want to make it sound as if it's faith based. It's not. It's evidence based. Even if evidence for evolution was all wrong (which it isn't), it still wouldn't be a religion. It would just be a debunked scientific theory.

No, absolutely not. And you know it. If I disagree with someone, I look into what they're saying and see if it lines up with God's Word.
The problem is, when "God's word" contradicts reality, you reject reality.

It does cause a dilemma. You believe God is never wrong and should never even be questioned. So it does make sense that, when reality doesn't match God's word as you know it, you reject reality. The problem is, IF God's word is wrong, you have made it literally impossible for yourself to know it unless you changed you views on God first.

I don't really mind any of your rejections though. The problem doesn't stem from your rejection of evolution. It stems from your misinformation about the theory of evolution and about science in general. You will argue that there isn't evidence for evolution when there is. You will argue that evolution states one thing when it really states another.

Because there is absolutely no harm in understanding another person's theory, especially one you oppose. In fact I would consider it essential if you want to properly refute their argument.
One Million Cookies for you. If I could, I would.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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I've read resources from both sides of the coin. It would be impossible not too. Evolutionary beliefs are found everywhere in the world, you can't escape them. But yes, I also learned about the biblical creation understanding. I haven't visited many museums in the world, but in Australia, yes a few and all point to millions and billions of years as being truth. I'd expect nothing less from non-Christians but from Christians? Come on! Even as a child I distrusted dinosaur exhibits etc. and became increasingly annoyed with their evolutionary bull. It was easy to see through, that if we were to use our God-given brains and give the Bible its dues as the inherent word of God - the ultimate authority of our lives, that evolution and its other belief system variants don't read like something of reason but rather like fairy tales for adults - minus the wonder. Yes, I believe the whole of creation is around 6,000 years and that humans and dinosaurs walked the earth together. Dinosaurs were created one day prior to man.
You're not rejecting evolution because it's based on flawed reasoning. You're rejecting evolution because it contradicts God, therefore you assume it must be flawed reasoning.