Quote:
Originally Posted by
Definition_Christ
I think you just have so much hatred towards pretrib rapture even if someone proved it to you in the bible you wouldn't believe it because you are so against it. Yesterday you almost made a point until you suggested I studied into IT.. Now I have studied into it and it only affirmed my belief.
Let's play connect the dots!
Watchman:lets do!!!!!
Quote:Originally Posted by
Definition_Christ
Matthew 24
40 Then two men will be in the field:
one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill:
one will be taken and the other left.
(note that does not say killed, that is just speculation with no evidence. It clearly says TAKEN.. Taken where? To be with Jesus!)
Watchman:Lets look at exactly when they will be removed?
Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
So according to your own reference they are removed at the coming of Christ which we find out in this very chapter verses 29-31 is after the tribulation (Of course you wouldn't learn that by study pretrib false teachers)
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Quote:Originally Posted by
Definition_Christ
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But
I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore
comfort one another with these words.
Watchman:Once again this passage is proof for post trib in verse 15 it say the rapture occurs at the coming of Christ which we know for Matthew 24:29-31 and other passages is after the tribulation not be it.
Quote:Originally Posted by
Definition_Christ
(So those who will be TAKEN UP.. Will be with the Lord Hence Matt 24:40-41 "TAKEN UP.. Paul just says CAUGHT UP"... It says COMFORT one another with these words..Not you will have to endure the great tribulation but you will NOT endure the great tribulation the Lord has already assured us of that!)
Watchman:The comforting thing about these words is that the dead are going to be raised not that the living our going to caught up.
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
This whole passages is meant to comfort believers who freinds and families have already passed on not to teach a pretrib rapture. Matter of fact as i have already shown the setting of this whole event is at the post trib coming of Christ.
Quote:Originally Posted by
Definition_Christ
Luke 21 (Note this is AFTER Yeshua talks about the great tribulation you can read the whole chapter for context if you'd like but I want to point out a few key words)
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that
you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.
38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.
(So we will ESCAPE these things .. What things? The great tribulation.. We will be "caught up" (as Paul says) or "taken up" (As Yeshua says).. We will be in the clouds and escape from these things.. Are there anymore Scriptures to let us know we will NOT endure the tribulation? Sure!!)
Watchman:#1 You cannot escape the tribulation if you never were in it. How can you escape anything you are not in? you cannot escape a bad relationship if you are not first in a bad relationship, you cannot escape prison without first being in prison ect.. This verse if anything disproves the pretrib rapture , it doesn;t prove it.
#2
Luke 21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Right here in this same chapter ''Luke 21'' Jesus makes it crystal clear that when the tribulation is at its height when men are being killed when the earth is acting up, when men are falling over dead because of fear then our redemption (the rapture) draws near. Luke 21 proves the post trib rapture not the pretrib. What you need to do is study your Bible not pretrib teachers.
Quote:Originally Posted by
Definition_Christ
Revelation 3
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:
8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere,
I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
Watchman:The sad thing is although this is the closest thing pretribbers have to a valid scripture this verse in no way hints that the church will be removed from the earth but simply keep from the hour of temptation.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
As you see God does not need to remove us from the earth to keep us from evil, temption or anything else.
Quote:Originally Posted by
Definition_Christ
(So... AGAIN we have the PROMISE from Yeshua Himself we will be "KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TRAIL WHICH SHALL COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD" And some people are calling Yeshua a liar and saying Yeshua is preaching a false doctrine.)
Watchman:I am calling the person you copied and pasted this teaching a liar, not Jesus. Jesus never taught we would be removed from the earth before the Tribulation, and many of the verses you have posted here in support of the pretrib rapture actually prove that we will be here until the post trib return of Christ, such as Matthew 24:37-41, and 1 Thess 4:13-18. Quote:Originally Posted by
Definition_Christ
So... What do we do? Believe man's lies saying we will endure the great tribulation or believe Yeshua?
(Note thanks for inviting me to investigate the Scriptures Watchmen)
If there is ANOTHER way to interpret these Scriptures please inform me on your interpretation.
Watchman:Mans lie is that of a pretrib rapture and yes i believe Jesus not mans lie. you shouldn;t interpret scripture you should just accept it as written, and you definitely should believe someone elses false interpretation of scripture.