Trinity?

[newbirth]

So, let me get this straight in my own head:

You believe the Holy Spirit is a person, not a force.

You believe the Holy Spirit has all the qualities of God, including eternal existence, creative power, and omnipresence.

You believe that somehow him being the 'Spirit of God' somehow immediately overrides all those other factors, and somehow makes the Holy Spirit not God? Does Jesus being the Son of God mean that Jesus is not a part of God, and is not divine? Does being the Queen of England somehow make the Queen not part of England?

When you've actually engaged with Scripture, you haven't really posted anything that conflicts with a Trinitarian understanding of God, and have agreed with everything I have posted to you. You'll have to clarify your position, because I'm not at all sure what it is now.

A trinitarian understands because he wants to understand the trinity, he loves the trinity he adores the trinity his life is the trinity. He doesn't want the truth. The bible teaches...
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

He did not say one God one Lord and one holy spirit did he?

 

[newbirth]

The Trinity started in the OT.

Look at Ezekiel...

We have the Son proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Word (Eze 1.3)
• Also called the Glory (Eze 1.28)
• The Glory has the appearance of a Man (Eze 1.26 – 28)
• Compare how the NT refers to the Son as the Glory & the Word (John 1.14; Heb 1.3)
• Ezekiel states that the Glory by the river (Eze 1.3, 28) is the same Glory as mentioned throughout the book (Eze 3.22 – 23; 10.18 – 20; 43.3)

We have the Spirit proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Man that is portrayed in (Eze 8.1 - 3) is also mentioned in (Eze 40.3)
• The Man is a representation of the Spirit (Eze 8.2 – 3; 43.5 – 6)
• The Hand of Yahweh is also the Spirit (Eze 3.14; 8.3; 37.1)
• The Man and the Glory are often associated with Yahweh
• We have the Man bringing Ezekiel back to the east gate (Eze 44.1)
• Prior to this, the Man was w/Ezekiel by the east gate (Eze 43.1)

We have the Trinity proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Spirit & the Glory are mentioned together – but at the same time, distinction is made between them (Eze 1.28 – 2.2; 3.12 – 14, 23 – 24; 8.3 – 4; 10.18 – 11.1, 22 – 23; 43.1 – 5)
• The Man quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 44.6; 45.9, 18; 46.1, 16; 47.13)
• The Glory quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 3.11 – 12; 11.5; 43.18, 19, 27)
• The Man (Eze 44.1) referred the Glory, and went through the east gate into the temple (Eze 43.2 – 5), as Yahweh the Father (Eze 44.2)
• Therefore, the Glory (the Word) is the Son
• The Man (The Hand of Yahweh) is the Spirit
• Yahweh is the Father

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

The scripture says not every man have that knowledge.....so I am telling you now... to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[Nick01]

A trinitarian understands because he wants to understand the trinity, he loves the trinity he adores the trinity his life is the trinity. He doesn't want the truth. The bible teaches...
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[SUP]6[/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

He did not say one God one Lord and one holy spirit did he?

Does there have to be a complete trinitarian statement every single time God is mentioned in the Bible? Every single time God is mentioned in the Bible, do you expect it to always say "God and Jesus"? The fact that we have Holy Spirit used synonymously with God, and used with the Father and the Son in the Great Commission should at the very least mean we treat arguments from silence on this issue (and that is what your argument from 1 Cor 8 is) very cautiously.

But you still didn't answer my question:

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a person and has divine prerogative and power to create, give spiritual gifts, etc?

 

[newbirth]

Does there have to be a complete trinitarian statement every single time God is mentioned in the Bible? Every single time God is mentioned in the Bible, do you expect it to always say "God and Jesus"? The fact that we have Holy Spirit used synonymously with God, and used with the Father and the Son in the Great Commission should at the very least mean we treat arguments from silence on this issue (and that is what your argument from 1 Cor 8 is) very cautiously.

But you still didn't answer my question:

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a person and has divine prerogative and power to create, give spiritual gifts, etc?

have you been reading my posts....HS is belongs to God he does what Got tells him to do. For me to say what he is in terms of being a person or not does not matter, what matters is he is the spirit of God..
Read it yourself..
1 Corinthians 8:6-7
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.



does not say anything about a trinity...however ...it does say...Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge

 

[Bowman]

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[SUP]6[/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[SUP]7[/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

The scripture says not every man have that knowledge.....so I am telling you now... to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Who are Israelites, whose are the adoption and the glory, and the covenants, and the Lawgiving, and the service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to flesh, He being God over all, blessed forever. Amen.(Romans 9.4 – 5)

 

[newbirth]

Does there have to be a complete trinitarian statement every single time God is mentioned in the Bible? Every single time God is mentioned in the Bible, do you expect it to always say "God and Jesus"? The fact that we have Holy Spirit used synonymously with God, and used with the Father and the Son in the Great Commission should at the very least mean we treat arguments from silence on this issue (and that is what your argument from 1 Cor 8 is) very cautiously.

But you still didn't answer my question:

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a person and has divine prerogative and power to create, give spiritual gifts, etc?

I did answer your question...[SUP]6[/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

 

[newbirth]

Who are Israelites, whose are the adoption and the glory, and the covenants, and the Lawgiving, and the service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to flesh, He being God over all, blessed forever. Amen.(Romans 9.4 – 5)

you have that right...now get this,,,[SUP]6[/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[SUP]7[/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

I can't help it if you don't want that knowledge ....I am showing you but all you want to see is trinity

 

[Bowman]

you have that right...now get this,,,[SUP]6[/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[SUP]7[/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

I can't help it if you don't want that knowledge ....I am showing you but all you want to see is trinity

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)

 

[Nick01]

have you been reading my posts....HS is belongs to God he does what Got tells him to do. For me to say what he is in terms of being a person or not does not matter, what matters is he is the spirit of God..

It does matter. Whatever pneumatology you come up with has to make sense of the parts of the Bible that ascribe personhood to the Holy Spirit. You can't pick and choose which parts of the Bible you wish to accept.

And Jesus does what the Father wills. Does that make him not God?

And again, your argument from 1 Corinthians 8 is an argument from silence. Paul has a very specific purpose in that immediate passage - why is it necessary to expect him to give a complete Trinitarian statement there for no particular reason?

But while we're in 1 Corinthians, what do you make of Paul's writing in chapter 12?

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

 

[newbirth]

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)

Don't see a trinity here

 

[newbirth]

It does matter. Whatever pneumatology you come up with has to make sense of the parts of the Bible that ascribe personhood to the Holy Spirit. You can't pick and choose which parts of the Bible you wish to accept.

And Jesus does what the Father wills. Does that make him not God?

And again, your argument from 1 Corinthians 8 is an argument from silence. Paul has a very specific purpose in that immediate passage - why is it necessary to expect him to give a complete Trinitarian statement there for no particular reason?

But while we're in 1 Corinthians, what do you make of Paul's writing in chapter 12?

There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. All things are subject to God does not say HS is God. HS is spirit of God...If You do what the father wills does that make you God.Paul is showing here the spirit doing his work...God gives angels to do his will are they God?

 

[TruthFromFrank]

We know that the second person of the Trinity was in the world from the beginning - and He came to His own, but the majority did not know Him, as thus…

He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth. John witnesses concerning Him, and has cried out, saying, This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out of His fullness we all received, and grace on top of grace. For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, that One declares Him.(John 1.10 – 18)


Scripture clearly informs the reader that the Word occupied flesh when He was in the world and that He was beheld as The Glory of God.


That the second person of the Trinity occupied flesh before being born of a woman and being referred to as God The Son, is made crystal clear by John’s proclamation that ‘He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me’.This is a full admission that The Son was manifest both before John’s time and after John’s time.


These early manifestations of The Son, The God-man, consisted of Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, etc, etc…

Your reply shows how the truth is twisted to suite your thoughts and arguments.
And the Word became flesh was replaced by the Word occupied flesh. There is a HUGE difference. I am NOT English speaking and even I can understand the difference above. Do I need to explain to you what you have said? This is exactly what Satan has done. He also twisted God's Word to suite himself and to destroy God's work.

The word 'Trinity' also does not appear in the Bible which also refers to THREE SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL GODS and is also a twisted statement that does not appear in the Bible.

Your statement These early manifestations of The Son, The God-man, consisted of Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, etc, etc… also is not extracted from the Bible which you present here as the truth.

John the baptist knew that Jesus was on this earth before him, when He created this world, and was again there when he baptized Jesus and that is why he could make a statement like This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me, because God told him what the sign will be to identify the Son of God.

 

[Nick01]

There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. All things are subject to God does not say HS is God. HS is spirit of God...If You do what the father wills does that make you God.Paul is showing here the spirit doing his work...God gives angels to do his will are they God?

I'm just going to keep reposting the things I write that you don't engage with:


And Jesus does what the Father wills. Does that make him not God?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a person and has divine prerogative and power to create, give spiritual gifts, etc? (This question DOES matter because you can't have a theology about the Holy Spirit without having some sort of rationale explaining verses that discuss the personhood and divine power of the Spirit)

If you answer those two questions, you will have a shape of my answer to this question...

God gives angels to do his will are they God?

But some questions for your question in the meantime:

Do angels create life?

Do angels distribute spiritual gifts according to their will?

Do angels know the mind of God?

Can angels be blasphemed? Is blasphemy against angels unforgivable?

Do angels teach us the words of Christ?

Do angel's live in God's 'temple?

 

[TruthFromFrank]

I understand English just fine, thank you.

Now that the pissing contest is out of the way, I did answer your question. You asked where does it say to worship the Holy Spirit in Scripture. I answered with: if the Holy Spirit is God, then you must worship the Spirit, no special verse in 3 Corinthians saying "Hey guys, worship the Holy Spirit". If the Holy Spirit is divine, then you must worship him, because God must be worshiped, almost by definition.

Now, if you want to have a sensible discussion about whether or not the Holy Spirit is a) a person and b) divine, then we can do that. But I'm not going to have a discussion if you're going to essential create a false and very specific standard of proof for no good reason.

THE USE OF BAD LANGUAGE ON THIS WEB-SITE IS NOT ALLOWED. THIS IS NOT A LOCAL TOILET TALK SHOW. BAD LANGUAGE BELONGS TO SATAN. IF YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR OTHERS, HOW CAN YOU EXPECT PEOPLE TO RESPECT YOU?

 

[newbirth]

I'm just going to keep reposting the things I write that you don't engage with:


And Jesus does what the Father wills. Does that make him not God?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a person and has divine prerogative and power to create, give spiritual gifts, etc? (This question DOES matter because you can't have a theology about the Holy Spirit without having some sort of rationale explaining verses that discuss the personhood and divine power of the Spirit)

If you answer those two questions, you will have a shape of my answer to this question...



But some questions for your question in the meantime:

[/COLOR]Do angels create life?

Do angels distribute spiritual gifts according to their will?

Do angels know the mind of God?

Can angels be blasphemed? Is blasphemy against angels unforgivable?

Do angels teach us the words of Christ?

Do angel's live in God's 'temple?

We do not imply or stand on our opinion we stand on the word of God...This is what the word clearly state...You don't see me jumping through hoops trying to prove anything it is all here proven in the word. It even explain why you don't understand. Look at how many scriptures you quoted...none giving a clear indication of what you are trying to prove. You are not questioning me you are questioning the word of God. When all is done even Christ subjects himself to the Father
1 Corinthians 15:24-28

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Nick01]

When all is done even Christ subjects himself to the Father

Agreed. So we can therefore agree that the Spirit doing the will of the Father is no impediment to him being divine, because the Son, who is God, also does the will of the Father. Only one more question that I want you to address atm, and then if you have any more for me, I'm happy to try and deal with them.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a person, and has divine prerogative and power to create, give spiritual gifts, etc?

At this point I'm assuming your answers to all the angels questions were all no's, given the above.

 

[Atwood]

Trinity!

There must be so much on the internet & in books on the Trinity that I wonder if an ad hoc discussion is really what you need, instead of a serious presentation of the doctrine. This doctrine has been fully discussed going back like 1000's of years now.

Of course the Holy Spirit is a person, otherwise He would not be grieved. Compare Isaiah 48 with John 1 (John is the gospel that uses I AM for the Lord Jesus.)

Isaiah 48:16:

"Come near to
[2] Me, hear this: from the beginning
[2] I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there
[2] I AM: and now
[1] the Lord YHWH has sent
[2] Me, and
[3] His Spirit."

 

[Bowman]

Don't see a trinity here

You see The Son as The True God.

 

[Bowman]

Your reply shows how the truth is twisted to suite your thoughts and arguments.

No.

And the Word became flesh

was replaced by the Word occupied flesh. There is a HUGE difference. I am NOT English speaking and even I can understand the difference above. Do I need to explain to you what you have said? This is exactly what Satan has done. He also twisted God's Word to suite himself and to destroy God's work.

Please do...

The word 'Trinity' also does not appear in the Bible which also refers to THREE SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL GODS and is also a twisted statement that does not appear in the Bible.

The word 'Trinity' is right next to the word 'monad'.

Your statement These early manifestations of The Son, The God-man, consisted of Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, etc, etc… also is not extracted from the Bible which you present here as the truth.

They most certainly are!

They are in the Hebrew OT...

John the baptist knew that Jesus was on this earth before him, when He created this world, and was again there when he baptized Jesus and that is why he could make a statement like This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me, because God told him what the sign will be to identify the Son of God.

How can The Son come to His people in OT times without being in human form...?

 

[newbirth]

Agreed. So we can therefore agree that the Spirit doing the will of the Father is no impediment to him being divine, because the Son, who is God, also does the will of the Father. Only one more question that I want you to address atm, and then if you have any more for me, I'm happy to try and deal with them.



At this point I'm assuming your answers to all the angels questions were all no's, given the above.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a person, and has divine prerogative and power to create, give spiritual gifts, etc?

You keep asking if I believe the HS is a Person ... He is a spirit....But you judge for yourself....all power belongs to God. All power is given to Christ...I see HS receiving from Christ...there is not a three way sharing but you refuse to accept what is clearly seen in scripture to hold on to a doctrine of man. You do not believe scripture...[SUP]6[/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[SUP]7[/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

If you would take time to look at that scripture you will notice the word ALL

[SUP]12 [/SUP]I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

What if I tell you the HS is the same spirit God and Christ share ...

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:



1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.