Baptism Essential to Salvation

[Atwood]

Re: Salvation is Offered Just for Belief -- Part 2 (Not Water Dunking)

Not a single verse you posted says "faith alone" saves. God's word would have to be changed/perverted by adding the word 'alone'

It is an observation that time & time again, the only thing a man is to do to be saved is believe, have faith in the real Lord Jesus. That does not change God's word; it is a characteristic of God's word.


Faith saves Eph 2:8 Yes.
Repentance saves Lk 13:3 = change of mind from non-belief to belief;
confession saves Rom 10:9 = agreeing with God that Christ is YHWH defines the object of belief, the only faith that saves is that in the real Lord Jesus

baptism saves 1 Pet 3:21 = no it doesn't. Baptism is a picture of salvation.
engrafted word saves James 1:21 = the engrafted word is not something a man does or must do

Many things are part of salvation; God does many things.
Man has but one thing to do: believe, have faith in the real Christ.

hope saves Rom 8:24 Rom 8:24 does not say that at all.
grace saves Titus 2:11 That is God's part, not man's.
blood of Christ saves Rev 1:5 That is God's part, not man's.
obedience saves Rom 6:16-18 Saves / salvation in not in those verses; this is made up.

But there is an obedience which saves = obeying this command:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved."

calling on the name of the Lord saves Rom 10:13 Faith may be expressed through a call. Next verse says How shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed. It is still faith that saves. That faith may be exercised in a call, does not establish that a call is essential.

gospel saves Rom 1:16 Gospel is not something a man does.

Faith is far from being the only thing that saves.

Straw man. The truth presented is not that faith is the only thing that saves. The truth presented is that believing (having faith) in the true Lord Jesus is the only essential thing a man must do to be saved.

 

[Atwood]

Let each one be convinced in his own mind if wants to stand firm in what they are taught, as the scriptures say. Do not judge your brothers or sisters in Christ.

I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel; which is not another gospel: only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema. As we have said before, so say I now again, If any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema. - Gal 1

 

[Atwood]

I posted this in another thread, you need to understand salvation the way they did in the Old Testament which almost always was a general sense of being delivered from any enemy or spared. Not as being borng again.

We all need deliverance from being boring again (LOL).
There is indeed a lot about being saved from enemies, but I would not exclude demons & satan from those enemies in the OT.
Being saved from sin is definitely in the OT. See for example, Isaiah 6 & Isaiah 53.
A great part of the Law of Moses concerns deliverance from the consequences of sin.
The sacrificial system covers many pages.

Surely goodness & mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,
And I shall dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

 

[Kerry]

No one was saved unytikl Christ died on the cross. The OT saints only had their sins covered and not removed and the reason why they were held captive by Satan. Jesus said I have come to preach the gospel to the poor and to take captive the captivity.

What was He talking about. He ws talkng about all the OT saint's that were held in paradise which was a part of hell.

anyway that's as deep as i'm going at this point. Jesus told the thief that today you will be with me in Paradise. BTW he was not baptized.

 

[Kerry]

If the Thief was baptized then that throws a wrench in the once saved always doctrine.

 

[Atwood]

No one was saved unytikl Christ died on the cross. The OT saints only had their sins covered and not removed and the reason why they were held captive by Satan. Jesus said I have come to preach the gospel to the poor and to take captive the captivity.

What was He talking about. He ws talkng about all the OT saint's that were held in paradise which was a part of hell.

anyway that's as deep as i'm going at this point. Jesus told the thief that today you will be with me in Paradise. BTW he was not baptized.

So you mean that no one's salvation was complete yet? Kerry, it is notable that your opinions post have no Bible proof attached.

What do you think of King David? Ps 23

Surely goodness & mercy shall follow me all of the days of my life,
And I shall dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

What do you think of Isaiah?
He was a man of unclean lips.
Do you think he lips were still unclean after the hot coal hit them?
Check out Isaiah 6.

Was Job a captive of satan or protected by a hedge from satan?
What about your Hall of Fame guys in Hebrews 11 ?
If Joshua didn't have sins removed, how could he have dwelt in the Tent of Meeting?
Could Moses have looked on the Lord face to face?

 

[Atwood]

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

The crowns are rewards, not salvation.
------------------------

Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues,. . . And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

This is making it to the end of the Tribulation; Christ's return at the end of the Trib brings salvation from persecution. But BTW, as the word says, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish," all those who are sheep do endure forever by God's grace. ("For by grace you have been saved" -- it does not say, "you have been given a chance at it")
-------------------------

Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
---------------------------

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:
------------------------------

1 Corinthians 9:24-25
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

Rewards must be earned.
-----------------------------------------

Romans 11
addresses major historical movements of Jews & Gentiles. The Gentiles are referred to collectively as a group with the singular you (thou, thee). The passage beings & ends with election, explaining that the Lord does not cast of those he foreknew. (cf. Rom 8: foreknew>foreordained>called>justified>glorified)

Then you [singular] will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you [singular] stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you [singular]. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you [singular], provided you [singular] continue in his kindness. Otherwise you [singular] too will be cut off.

You is singular here (Thou) and refers to Gentiles collectively. The passage endorses election of Israel and argues that God's promises to Israel must be fulfilled. The passage is not about individuals losing salvation. The passage is basically about the security of Israel in her election with the key line: "the gifts & calling of God are not repented of."

< Romans 11:

I say then, Did God cast off his people? Let it not be so. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. . . . Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day. . . .

I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. . . .
But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou [collective singular for Gentiles], being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; glory not over the branches: . . .
. . .
if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. . . .
a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written,
There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer;
He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
And this is my covenant unto them,
When I shall take away their sins.

As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: John 3 Has No Baptism (word is not there)

Water is missing in 1 Cor 12:13!

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.

John 3 does not say "in one Spirit . . . baptized."
Your alleged parallel is not parallel.

Jn 3:5: 1) one be born of water--- 2) and the Spirit>>> 3) kingdom of God.

1 Cor 12:13: 1) water missing--- 2) in one Spirit we were all baptized>>> 3) one body,

The supposed parallelism is contrived and actually non-existent.

No water is in 1 Cor.
Born of the Spirit = regeneration of the Spirit, which is not baptism of the Spirit.
Kingdom of God in John 3 is not the Body of Christ, the Church.
"Baptized" does not occur in John 3.

Baptism is simply not in John 3.

Jn 3:5---------------spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>in kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>in body



As "spirit" in 1 Cor 12:13 is equivalent to "spirit" in Jn 3:5

As "into one body" of 1 Cor 12:13 is equivalent to "in the kingdom" of Jn 3:5

Therefore in 1 Cor 12:13 "baptized" is equivalent to "born of water" in Jn 3:5>>>this is the parallel connection you purposely avoided, that you do not want to make.

Furthermore, 1 Cor 1:14,16 Paul WATER baptized some of the Corinthians himself, the one baptism of Eph 4:5. You are trying to create two baptism contrary to Eph 4:5.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: As Salvation is Offered Just for Faith So Many Times, H2O Is Not Essential

SeaBass:

1) repentance sometimes is listed. But repentance (metanoia) means change of mind, not being sorry, not turning over a new leaf. There is a metamelomai repentance which is being sorry; Judas had that one, then went and hanged himself.

The only change of mind (repentance) that saves is change from non-belief to belief in Christ (as for example, repenting of writing Him off as a mere "chance-giver" and moving to trusting Him as Savior.

Lk 13:3,5 the purpose of repentance is "not perish" as in Jn 3:16 the purpose of believing is "not perish". Not perishing is eqivalent to being saved/salvation.

2) Confession. Homologeo is the word. Hom(o) = same; log = saying, thus: say the same thing about or agree with. We agree with God that the Lord Jesus is YHWH and trust Him with that definition of who He is; He is YHWH and man risen from the dead. Read context which goes on to say, "For [explanatory] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be saved (10:13). LORD in context = the Lord Jesus, but as a quote from Joel, the word there for LORD is YHWH. So to be saved, one may call in faith on the LORD Jesus agreeing that He is YHWH (not Jesus the Mexican car mechanic). This confession or agreement on the nature of Christ has nothing to do with public confession before men, though that should be done. (How shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?)

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Confession is made "unto salvation", in order to obtain salvation meaing salvation is not possible without confession.

So one believes UNTO righteousness and confesses UNTO salvation then:

Believe/confess>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved/righteous
call on the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then 'calling on the name of the Lord' means one believes and confesses, just as Christ said to do, Lk 6:46...And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

3) 1 Peter does not say that water baptism saves, though water baptism is a picture illustrating salvation, dying & rising with Christ in a new birth. It is not water washing flesh that saves.

Here it is Seabass, the Must-I-do of salvation:

Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Believe on Him, trust Him to save you, repenting of the "chance-giver" demotion.

Peter is talking about water baptism here and plainly says it saves.
If Peter was not talking about water baptism then what does one use to wash dirt from the flesh with? Water.

OT type: saved by water
NT antitype: saved by water

So the NT, being an anti-type of the OT type, also proves Peter is talking about WATER baptism. The earth was not flooded with spirit but with literal water.

Again, in Acts 16:
1) you continue to assume the word "alone" into verse 31.
2) you ignore that the participle phrase "having believed" in verse 34 includes all the jailer had just done, meaning "having believed" includes his repenting and being baptized of verse 33. So "believe" of verse 31 would also include repentance and baptism as "believed" of verse 34 does.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: The Only MUST-DO Is Believe

Only is an observation; believe is the only must-I-do given to the question. Observing that there is only one must-I-do listed is not perversion. It calls attention to what is there.

Acts 2:41 says nothing about baptism saving whatsoever. And rejecting does not occur in Acts 2:41, neither does water occur in that verse. Kindly refrain from making things up.

You are ADDING "only" to the verse to force the verse to fit YOUR bias. When one adds to or takes from God's word, he no longer has God's word. If you can add "only' to the verse, then anyone can add any word(s) they want to to any verse(s) they want to.


The purpose of me bring up Acts 2:41,44 is to show that the word "believed" in verse 44 includes being baptized of v41. So "believed" in v44 is cannot be ASSUMED to mean "believe only" for it includes baptism.

 

[SeaBass]

Let each one be convinced in his own mind if wants to stand firm in what they are taught, as the scriptures say. Do not judge your brothers or sisters in Christ.

Rather you believe in water baptism or works being a part or necessary for salvation we as believers will stand before our Lord Jesus and be judged by Him.


Romans 14:10-12
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For wwe will all stand before xthe judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then zeach of us will give an account of himself to God.

1 Corinthians 3:11–15
11 For no one can lay a ufoundation other than that which is laid, wwhich is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 xeach one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed yby fire, and zthe fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, ahe will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, bbut only as through fire.

2 Corinthians 5:10
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad”

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

What Paul talks about in Rom 14 has to do with matters of opinion NOT matters of doctrine. Water baptism is not a matter of opinion but is a matter of doctrine and John said If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 2 Jn 1:10

Paul is talking to RECEIVE one weak in faith over matters of opinions. John said to RECEIVE NOT one who does not bring this doctrine to you.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: Salvation is Offered Just for Belief -- Part 2 (Not Water Dunking)

It is an observation that time & time again, the only thing a man is to do to be saved is believe, have faith in the real Lord Jesus. That does not change God's word; it is a characteristic of God's word.


Faith saves Eph 2:8 Yes.
Repentance saves Lk 13:3 = change of mind from non-belief to belief;
confession saves Rom 10:9 = agreeing with God that Christ is YHWH defines the object of belief, the only faith that saves is that in the real Lord Jesus

baptism saves 1 Pet 3:21 = no it doesn't. Baptism is a picture of salvation.
engrafted word saves James 1:21 = the engrafted word is not something a man does or must do

Many things are part of salvation; God does many things.
Man has but one thing to do: believe, have faith in the real Christ.

hope saves Rom 8:24 Rom 8:24 does not say that at all.
grace saves Titus 2:11 That is God's part, not man's.
blood of Christ saves Rev 1:5 That is God's part, not man's.
obedience saves Rom 6:16-18 Saves / salvation in not in those verses; this is made up.

But there is an obedience which saves = obeying this command:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved."

calling on the name of the Lord saves Rom 10:13 Faith may be expressed through a call. Next verse says How shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed. It is still faith that saves. That faith may be exercised in a call, does not establish that a call is essential.

gospel saves Rom 1:16 Gospel is not something a man does.




Straw man. The truth presented is not that faith is the only thing that saves. The truth presented is that believing (having faith) in the true Lord Jesus is the only essential thing a man must do to be saved.

You cherry-pick out verses that mention "believing" while ignoring verses that speak of repenting confession and baptism.

1) I already showed in an earlier post that repentance, confession and baptism lead to salvation as much as belief. If you want to argue they do not, then you are going to have to argue the impenitent, the denier of Christ and the one lost in his unremitted sins can be saved, which is not biblically possible

2) I showed from Acts 2:41,44 that the word "believed" in v44 includes being baptized of v41.

 

[SeaBass]

No one was saved unytikl Christ died on the cross. The OT saints only had their sins covered and not removed and the reason why they were held captive by Satan. Jesus said I have come to preach the gospel to the poor and to take captive the captivity.

What was He talking about. He ws talkng about all the OT saint's that were held in paradise which was a part of hell.

anyway that's as deep as i'm going at this point. Jesus told the thief that today you will be with me in Paradise. BTW he was not baptized.

What proof can you present to us the thief had NEVER been baptized?

 

[Butch5]

Re: Baptism IS NOT Essential to Salvation

Well Butch,
On year when reading the Bible through for the year, I took the time to mark all the passages on salvation in pink highlighter, including passages opponents to my POV would mark.

Have you done that?

Now the water-baptism heretics do precisely what object to, proof-texting without considering the whole picture, how it all fits together:
1) salvation is by faith/believe only a multitude of times,

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that faith alone is needed for salvation.

2) baptism is a rare addition to the context, where one might think baptism was a condition, and water is never mentioned as a condition of salvation.

Not really when one looks t everything said on baptism. One reason there are many passages about faith and not as many about baptism is simply due to the historical situation. When one studies the historical setting and what was going on at the time it becomes clear why there are so many more passages about faith. If you read Act 15 you'll find that there were Jews who were behind Paul telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. This was a big issue that Paul had to deal with and why many of his writing say that a man is justified by faith and not works. He's not saying that anything a person does is a work and thus can't save, he saying that one isn't saved by being circumcised or keeping the Law of Moses. The reason for all of the mentions of faith is because of this dispute. No one disputed the necessity of water baptism so the subject didn't come up like the faith issue.

3) salvation is declared not to be of works, and water baptism is a human work.

Where in Scripture do you find the words "human work?" As I pointed out above Paul is speaking of circumcision and keeping the Mosaic Law when he says not of works. The idea that what a person does plays no role in Salvation goes against the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. Paul's argument against works was dealing with a situation that was occurring in his day in that area. People aren't preaching circumcision and the Mosaic Law today.

 

[ThomistColin]

If the Thief was baptized then that throws a wrench in the once saved always doctrine.

He was baptized by blood. He was in the end a martyr for Christ, standing against the hatred of the crowd.

 

[ThomistColin]

Re: John 3 Has No Baptism (word is not there)

Jn 3:5---------------spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>in kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>in body



As "spirit" in 1 Cor 12:13 is equivalent to "spirit" in Jn 3:5

As "into one body" of 1 Cor 12:13 is equivalent to "in the kingdom" of Jn 3:5

Therefore in 1 Cor 12:13 "baptized" is equivalent to "born of water" in Jn 3:5>>>this is the parallel connection you purposely avoided, that you do not want to make.

Furthermore, 1 Cor 1:14,16 Paul WATER baptized some of the Corinthians himself, the one baptism of Eph 4:5. You are trying to create two baptism contrary to Eph 4:5.

You cannot enter the Kingdom without being part of the Body. In the end, you must be born of water AND spirit.

 

[apostolic862004]

So for all you who keep saying that baptism is not essential to salvation, and you are saying we are saved by faith. Some of you have said that we are saved by faith only because some of the scriptures literally say, we are saved by grace through faith. Ok, fair enough. Then let me give you another scripture that says how we are SAVED:

1 Peter 3:20 - Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
:21 - The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


What say ye?

 

[SeaBass]

So for all you who keep saying that baptism is not essential to salvation, and you are saying we are saved by faith. Some of you have said that we are saved by faith only because some of the scriptures literally say, we are saved by grace through faith. Ok, fair enough. Then let me give you another scripture that says how we are SAVED:

1 Peter 3:20 - Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
:21 - The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


What say ye?

Eph 2:8----------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet 3:21-------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then faith must include baptism.

 

[apostolic862004]

Eph 2:8----------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet 3:21-------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then faith must include baptism.

Absolutely!

 

[ThePottersClay]

I think to be baptized is very much a re-affirmation and deceleration of laying down the old life. And it is instructed that a believer should be baptized. I personally do not think anyone who comes to Christ should hesitate to be baptized. In my opinion churches should have a bath or a swimming pool ready for every single service, so that WHEN a person is saved in that service, he can go straight into baptism - but in today's day and time, you have to book it in advance at times.

Now taking this into account, should you give your life to God in a Sunday service, walk out into the parking lot and a tree falls on you killing you, does this mean you are not saved? NOT AT ALL

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
The scripture says here "he that believes and IS baptizes shall be saved" SO we should get baptized, but it says here too, that "he that believeth not shall be damned"

The second part is what I'm pressing on, it takes your belief and initial repentance, so if you happen to die before you baptize because you had no way of getting baptized you will not be damned because of your faith.

BUT - go get baptized, the word of God insists on it! Why argue the point, its an ACT of your faith!