It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

Atwood · Jul 7, 2014

Simona, why should anyone believe what you say here? Cody cited scripture, which is not paganism. You cite nothing. You blaspheme the atonement, calling masochism (on your own authority); you claim a "come from" with no evidence. And you make a statement about Moloch without any quotation of pre-NT literature to support it.

The Lord Jesus died for you and shed His precious blood that you might be saved. I urge you to read the Bible and mark the passages, for example Isaiah 53:

All we like sheep have gone astray,
We have turned everyone to his own way,
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

newbirth · Jul 7, 2014

Cody said:

God didnt do it to satisfy his "offended pride." He punished his Son because God is a just God and MUST punish sin. He will not pardon our sins, he MUST punish them to remain just. The only way for us to be forgiven for sin is by the blood of Jesus Christ who bore our sins upon himself 1 peter 2:24. Jesus is a propitiation for our sins Rom 3:25. This means that Jesus satisfied Gods wrath when he was judged on the cross. If you deny this, you deny the gospel and can not be saved. If Jesus did not take the wrath of God for OUR sins, then we are still in our sins and will be judged. The wages of sin is death Rom 6:23. So God requires death to pay for sins. This is why Jesus had to die, he was to pay the debt for sin. If you don't believe that Jesus died for your sins then you are lost and will be judged for your own sins.

God did not punish Christ...please don't say that. He was without sin, blameless, the perfect lamb. Where is this teaching coming from?

Atwood · Jul 7, 2014

Re: I Goofed. I Attributed a KJV translation to the NKJV

newbirth said:

The point is that karargeo does not mean "cut off" or "severed" in the sense of amputation. The word does not imply that part of Christ's body is amputated when a man turns away from the grace system to the commandments system. Do you have any idea of the context of Galatians. "No effect" is a good rendering. And will you depart from the KJV in making a quote then be outraged when I go back to the KJV as if I were tampering with the text?

Do you want Christ to be effective in your salvation? If so, then abandon the works/commandments idea, abandon the "chance-giver" theory; trust Christ as actual Savior.

Let this burn into you mind forever now:

"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."

Atwood · Jul 7, 2014

newbirth said:

It comes from God's word. Read and mark your Bible. Lamb implies recipient of punishment. The Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He took our punishment on the cross as our substitute. Abraham sacrificing Isaac is a picture of this.

Isaiah 53:

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken,smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and
the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; He hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

newbirth · Jul 7, 2014

Re: I Goofed. I Attributed a KJV translation to the NKJV

Atwood said:

is your understanding darkened? I used your term...in my reply...same same ...he was effective now ...Christ is become of no effect unto you
Now I am asking you ...If Christ has become of no effect to someone is that person still saved?

Atwood · Jul 7, 2014

Re: Same ol' Same ol' diversion from the SAvior who saves

newbirth said:

NewB, we keep commandments of the Lord because we love Him, not to earn salvation. Salvation is not of works. And taking the commandments-theory cuts you off from grace, not that you ever had it. You fall away from the grace system, which has been presented to you. Indeed some may adopt the grace system in their minds, and then depart from it as their belief system. But adopting a belief system does not make one saved.

Trusting the Lord Jesus is what saved. Trusting Him does require a belief-system, but the affirmation of a belief system alone, does not save.

Abandon any "chance-giver" theory, and trust the Savior as the Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Atwood · Jul 7, 2014

royalscot said:

Good morning, RoyalScot,
(Beam you aboard).

I think you are correct in suggesting one factor:
Those who are hostile to eternal security have a basic misunderstanding of salvation. This is seen as they continually site passages where there is no Savior doing any saving. The idea of meriting salvation by works denies the basic concept of salvation, namely that there is a Savior who saves His people from their sins. A denial of eternal security goes with denying that Christ paid for our sins on the cross. If He paid for our sins, how do our sins become unpaid for? He paid for our sins so that whosoever believes would have everlasting life. The whole process depends upon God having given His only son to go to the cross, not on our works.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
For by grace you have been saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

It is understandable that one who wants to boast of his good works would deny salvation by grace.

apostolic862004 · Jul 7, 2014

Atwood, since you say that we are saved by grace alone, at what point is grace applied to an individuals life? Was it applied to everyone's life as soon as Christ died, or is it applied as soon as they believe that he died for them?

Simona25 · Jul 7, 2014

Atwood said:

None of what he cited supports the idea that Christ satisfied God's wrath. None.

Atwood said:

The masochism comes from Anselm's theory of atonement. He said (in the book Cur Deus Homo) that man (a finite being) brought an infinite offense to an infinite being. And this offense required a satisfaction. But no man was good enough to satisfy God, hence the need of the incarnation of God the Son in the man Jesus Christ (the only one that can give satisfaction to God precisely because He is both man and both God).
Doctrine of Moloch, not of Jesus Christ. Moloch required human sacrifices to appease his wrath, not God.

Atwood said:

The incarnation of God in man is in itself a sacrifice. In John 3:16 I read that God loved us so much that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believed in Him has eternal life and may be in communion (by grace) with God. The verses from Isaiah don't say that Christ appeased His Father's wrath, but that He became man (which is in itself a sacrifice, like I said earlier), He took our sin (the pain part of our sin because sin has also a pleasure part, but He only took the pain part from our fallen nature) and became vulnerable just like any other human being. He felt cold, hunger, pain...He even experienced death...can you imagine that? He emptied Himself of His glory in order to be with us! And what did we do? Humanity committed the worse crime ever and you call that justice?

Atwood · Jul 7, 2014

Cassian said:

You don't quote the soils & prove anything. Attaining eternal life is a key part of salvation. Your statement over & over as usual with no Bible proof, goes nowhere. It is an example of your confusion (or confusing):

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

God so loved the world that He have His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish [salvation], but have eternal life [salvation].

Eternal life is part of salvation in that the sinner is doomed to death in the Lake of Fire, but by God's grace, the sinner gets a new birth and eternal life. It is absurd to deny that such is salvation.

2 Tim 2 most directly tells us that salvation comes with eternal glory.
Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Isaiah 38

Jehovah is ready to save me:
Therefore we will sing my songs with stringed instruments
All the days of our life in the house of Jehovah.

The verses you quote do not support your theory, which seems to be some kind of universalism. The damned are raised for judgment, which is hardly "granted life to all men."

Salvation is not what Christ did for all mankind, but what He did for whosoever believed in Him.
Sirs what must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

The offer of salvation goes to whosoever will. Christ is the only Savior available to all men, but He is not effectively their Savior until they become "His people" by trusting Him as SAvior (not as chance-giver).

What is man-made are all the words you type here, quite dogmatically, without any scriptural proof. So I reject your pontifications.

As I have shown, eternal security was believed long before the last 500 years. I should you its evidence in Jerome & others. And most clearly I quoted many verses to you.

1 Cor 15 says nothing about salvation to all men; to be raised for an appointment at the Great White Throne with the Lake of Fire following is no salvation. It is not eternal life, but eternal death, the 2nd death.

The redemption of all men was bought on the cross by Christ, but only effective to whosoever believes.

Salvation is of YHWH. It is the guarantee of the Lord, not of man. He shall save His people from their sins. That means whatever is required, He does it. The child of God never stops believing in Christ, neither can you show any instance of this. We see the example of Christ praying that Peter's faith fail not. Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith. Your attempt to deny the "perfecter" or "completer" meaning there, failed.

The scripture is abundant and clear. I have posted it. Your just denying things proves nothing. Christ is the author and perfecter of the Christian's faith. It does not fail. Eternal life is already a fact for the believer, as I proved.

One example: "That you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John

Note how you have no scripture. The only repentance that saves is a change of mind from non-belief to belief. Confessing sins is not a condition of salvation in scripture, though confessing one is a sinner is implicit in trusting a Savior from sin. Judas repented in the sense of being sorry, and he also confessed it. He threw the money back. But there is no indication that it helped him not; he hanged himself.

Cassian, since you are no believer and since you do not appear to associate with believers, how would you know? You have dismissed the Savior as a chance-giver.

You seem to fail to understand that when a man trusts Christ, that man is begotten of God and gets a new nature which by nature does good. Choice is made in conformity with a man's nature. That is why the Lord never chooses to do evil.

You have yet to find a text that says a believer in Christ loses faith in Christ as Savior. The scripture is clear that the believer inherits eternal life. And his inheritance is incorruptible and undefiled, reserved in Heaven.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save [not give chance] His people from their sins.

Atwood · Jul 7, 2014

This is What Salvation Is All About

The Believer is Eternally Secure

ps 72
For he will deliver the needy when he crieth,
And the poor, that hath no helper.
He will have pity on the poor and needy,
And the souls of the needy he will save.
He will redeem their soul from oppression and violence;
And precious will their blood be in his sight:
And they shall live;

In II Thess. 3:3 “But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from the evil one.”

In II Tim. 1:12 “For I know Him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard that which He has committed to me against that day.”

1 tim 4:18 The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

With salvation goes eternal life.

Atwood · Jul 7, 2014

Vs. the Preposterous Idea that Salvation Does Not Include Eternal Life

The preposterous idea has been pontificated here how that salvation does not include eternal life.

1 tim 4:18 The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Salvation includes eternal life.

Billyd · Jul 7, 2014

Cassian said:

My friend, nowhere in this chapter does is say maybe, you must do this or that, etc. It is very clear. No matter how you translate it, is still says that he who believes, shall. Shall what? Shall have eternal life. Every scripture that you quote from the Apostle Paul is an address to a specific problem in the group he is addressing it to. When he addresses a person who ask him the direct question "what do I have to do?" he quotes John 3:16. When Jesus answers the same question, he usually illustrates the impossibility of following the Law.

I've been on this earth for more than seventy years, and I've yet to meet a person who can have eternal life under your expressed definition of salvation.

Atwood · Jul 7, 2014

Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

Simona25 said:

If the guy quoted scripture, your mere negation is ineffective. If you want us to believe that his scripture is irrelevant, prove it.

Simona, to use such a term for Christ's sacrifice is an insult and a blasphemy; I believe you do it in ignorance.

And excellent deduction from scripture from a man whom even the RCC endorses as a saint.

You blaspheme the doctrine with no proof. What ancient document have you read on Moloch, written before the NT that sustains such a POV? And if Moloch was similar, how do you know that it was not satanic imitation? Your Moloch goes nowhere, for you just up & say it.

Is it scripture phobia that keeps you guys from quoting correctly & arguing from the text like Christ did ("It is written")? What leads you to conclude that "gave" means the incarnation instead of including the death on the cross? John 3:16 does not say "became a man," or "incarnation."
That is no proof.

You do not quote, but you pontificate, sticking in things not in Isaiah 53. Isaiah clearly teaches that God sacrificed His Son. He laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Sin & iniquity rouses God's wrath. God is angry with the wicked every day. Ps 7:11.

If He Who knew no sin was made sin for us, how could be avoid suffering the wrath of God on the cross?

Do you not admit that in the hiaskomai (propitiate) ἱλάσκομαι , ἱλασμός, ἱλαστήριον, ἵλεως group of words the concept of appeasement of wrath is included? Do you deny that the Lord Jesus was the propitiation for our sin?

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastisement that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Simona25 · Jul 7, 2014

Re: Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

Atwood said:

The Scripture he quoted doesn't talk about God's wrath being appeased.

Atwood said:

Even the sacrifice of Jesus Christ loses its meaning in this schizophrenic scheme. It is you that mock Christ' sacrifice, not me.

Atwood said:

The RCC empire spread this poisonous teaching all over the world! No wonder people hate christianity so much! Heaven is repulsive with such a god who needs to pour His wrath on someone.
The whole misunderstanding comes from how Anselm interpreted Genesis; Anselm thinks that God punished Adam with death. But God did not say "don't eat or else I'll kill you", God said "don't eat or else you'll die". Death did not come at God's command. Death is the consequence of sin (sin is separation from God). God wasn't offended by Adam's sin because sin only affects man, not God.
Anselm also misunderstood the righteousness/justice of God.

(I will write more later because now I have to go).

Atwood · Jul 7, 2014

We Are Eternally Secure From Suffering at God's Wrath; Christ Did It 4 Us

The Lord Jesus drank the cup of God's wrath on the cross, and He cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me."
There is therefore no need to suffer the wrath of God nor separation from Him. The cup has been drunk for you. All you must now do is trust Him as Savior, not as untrust Him as "chance-giver

'
<Rom 1: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

< John 18:11 "the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

The word “cup” connects with the prayer in Gethsemane, (Matt 26:42; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42). The cup was so dreadful that our Savior sweat (as it were) great drops of blood over it in anticipation. Can you not hear in his mind the "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me" coming? Sin separates from God, not that the Trinity can be split, but in His human nature He can experience what God cannot (like not knowing something).

[ASV] Matt. 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

"the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

Surely this is this cup of God's wrath. It was not dreamed up by Anselm, but is in scripture.

[ASV] Psa. 11:6 Upon the wicked he will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind shall be the portion of their cup.

[ASV] Psa. 75:8 For in the hand of Jehovah there is a cup, and the wine foameth; It is full of mixture, and he poureth out of the same: Surely the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall drain them, and drink them.

[ASV] Is. 51:17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, that hast drunk at the hand of Jehovah the cup of his wrath; thou hast drunken the bowl of the cup of staggering, and drained it.

[ASV] Is. 51:22 Thus saith thy Lord Jehovah, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thy hand the cup of staggering, even the bowl of the cup of my wrath; thou shalt no more drink it again:

[ASV] Jer. 25:15 ¶ For thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, unto me: Take this cup of the wine of wrath at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.

[ASV] Jer. 49:12 For thus saith Jehovah: Behold, they to whom it pertained not to drink of the cup shall assuredly drink; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink.

[ASV] Ezek. 23:31-33 Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thy hand. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Thou shalt drink of thy sister’s cup, which is deep and large; thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much. Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.

[ASV] Rev. 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

[ASV] Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

[ASV] Rev. 18:6 Render unto her even as she rendered, and double unto her the double according to her works: in the cup which she mingled, mingle unto her double.18:6

Let's compare the Dead Sea Scrolls:

1QpHab 11:10-15 the cup of the LORD’s right hand will come around for you, and then shame will cover your honor” (Habakkuk 2:16). This refers to the priest whose disgrace became greater than his honor, because he had not circumcised his heart’s foreskin, and he walked in the ways of drunkenness in order to put an end to thirst. But the cup of God’s wrath will destroy him, increas[ing only his dis]honor and pain […]

Atwood · Jul 7, 2014

Re: Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

Simona25 said:

Simona, you reciting a party line proves nothing. Where is your scripture? Why is it that you guys think you can just pontificate? Now you don't prove a thing.

"the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

That is surely the cup of God's wrath, and I posted the evidence.

royalscot · Jul 7, 2014

Atwood said:

well I agree,with you, and so dose the disciples , they were eye witnesses to jesus life and death, and the he rose out the grave, and went back to heaven. and most of the disciples were at Pentecost.

act 15 v10 now then why do you try and test god by putting on there necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we or our fathers have been able to bear,11 no we believe it is through the grace of our lord jesus that we are saved ,just as they are (gentiles)

newbirth · Jul 7, 2014

Re: Same ol' Same ol' diversion from the SAvior who saves

Atwood said:

you are saved by grace ...why do you change the word of God? Faith is what carries you from the time God saved you to the time you die or until he comes ...whichever comes first. By grace through faith...

apostolic862004 · Jul 7, 2014

apostolic862004 said:

Atwood can you address this question? Or anyone else that believes that you don't have to DO anything to be saved?

It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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