It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[newbirth]

It comes from God's word. Read and mark your Bible. Lamb implies recipient of punishment. The Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He took our punishment on the cross as our substitute. Abraham sacrificing Isaac is a picture of this.

Isaiah 53:

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken,smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and
the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; He hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

You quote scripture but you don't understand what you quote. It is only after Christ died his perfect sinless blood paid for our sins...punishment is for the guilty...he was guiltless that is why death and hell could not keep him...In order that death and hell could accept him they had to believe he was worthy of death. So he had to stand accused he did not challenge the accusation so they all assumed he was guilty.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[Cody]

...this masochism does not come from the gospel, but from paganism.
The god Moloch requires death to pay for sins, not God. You, westerners, have misunderstood the justice and righteousness of God. God doesn't repay evil for evil. God is love and goodness. Understand that! Understand also that sin is a reality that affects you ontologically. It is sin that kills, not God. Sin is separation from God (who is life). What happens when you move away from life? You die.

Read Isaiah 53 some day and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Atwood]

Read Isaiah 53 some day and you'll see what I mean.

But don't you see the long exposition of Moloch in Isaiah 53?

 

[Atwood]

Atwood, since you say that we are saved by grace alone, at what point is grace applied to an individuals life? Was it applied to everyone's life as soon as Christ died, or is it applied as soon as they believe that he died for them?

Atwood can you address this question? Or anyone else that believes that you don't have to DO anything to be saved?

Good afternoon Apostolic;

Eph 2 saith:
"For my grace you have been saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast."

If you have a theory as to when the grace is applied, go ahead and post with any Bible proof you have.

I think that a study of Eph 1 may help you.
I don't think that everyone who believes in eternal security has the same POV on your question. Some believe in more common grace than others.

My point here is that however you may figure out the rest,
the Lord has graciously promised to us:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Also, it is good to keep in mind why He was given the name He has (Jesus, Yeho-shua', YHWH [is] salvation).

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

So I trust the ever living ONe, HIs wounds for me shall plead!
I need no other argument,
I need no other plea;
It is enough that Jesus died,
& that He died for Me.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Same ol' Same ol' diversion from the SAvior who saves

you are saved by grace ...why do you change the word of God? Faith is what carries you from the time God saved you to the time you die or until he comes ...whichever comes first. By grace through faith...

I don't recall posting anything that changed God's word. Here is what the word says, & it is no babble:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins

 

[Simona25]

Re: Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

Simona, you reciting a party line proves nothing. Where is your scripture? Why is it that you guys think you can just pontificate? Now you don't prove a thing.

Genesis 2,15: 15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Where does God threaten Adam to kill him if he eats from the tree? NOWHERE! God warns Adam, He does not threaten him. Adam brought death to himself, not God.
So, God sent His only begotten Son in order to save us from the death that we brought to ourselves, Christ came to take away the sin of the world and to reconcile the world with God because it is sin that separates man from God. And He did it by emptying Himself of glory, by humbling Himself (He became man), by showing sacrificial love to humanity (He died on the cross) and by resurrecting (defeating death).
Jesus Christ sanctified the human nature and cleansed it from sin so that we can grow into His likeness. We are asked to be perfect, just like He is. We must reach the level of perfection that the human nature of Jesus Christ has.

"the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

That is surely the cup of God's wrath, and I posted the evidence.

I would say it's the cup of bitterness, not of wrath. God created us out of love, in fact, the creation itself is based on the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ as we can see in Revelation 13,8 where St. John is contemplating "the lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world".

 

[Atwood]

Re: Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

The Scripture he quoted doesn't talk about God's wrath being appeased. . . . (I will write more later because now I have to go)

Well, Simona:

What is your proof that
1) His scripture does not speak of God's wratch being appeased?
2) the scheme is schizophrenic?
3) the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is made schizophrenic?
4) The sacrifice loses its meaning thusly?
5) I mock the sacrifice?
6) this teaching is poisonous?
7) the RCC spread it all over the world?
8) the teaching is false?
9) the cause of hating Chrty is not rather the truth, the offense of the Cross?
10) the true gospel is not offensive?
11) God does not pour out wrath?
12) Scripture is not full of God pouring out wrath?
13) Anselm was wrong on Gen?
14) Death did not come at God's command in Genesis 3?
15) Sin is separation from God instead of Sin causes separation?
16) Anselm misunderstood the righteousness/justice of God?
17) You should write more before you prove the above?
18) Anyone will believe you just for saying things?

Now Simona, it looks like you have a lot of proving to do for all your up-and-said-it assertions.

 

[Simona25]

Read Isaiah 53 some day and you'll see what I mean.

I know Isaiah 53. It's just that I do not read it in the light of Anselm's theory.
I only see God's love for humanity. He is amazingly interested in us. Something like "what? is sin separating Me from my beloved creation? I can't stand it! I'll become myself sin so that I can be with my beloved children!". That's how I read it and nobody will ever convince me otherwise.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

Genesis 2,15: 15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

How do you know that

1) If there is no threat, that implies God did not bring death on Adam? (the absence of a threat implies what God did not do??? Is this the fallacy of denying an antecedent?

2) When scripture says, "It is appointed to man once to die," someone other than God made that appointment?

3) If God warned Adam, that is inconsistent with God carrying out the judgment of death?

4) John 3:16 says that God gave His son to save us from a death which is not determined by God?

5) If man brought death on himself, that precludes the possibility that death is God's judgment?

6) Merely showing sacrificial love would take away death & reconcile the world?
7) Christ cleansed the human nature from sin???
(How does that jive with Rom 1-3???)

8) Man can grow into His likeness instead of being birthed into His likeness?
9) We are asked instead of commanded to be perfect?
10) The command to perfection has any other purpose than convicting men of sin?

11) In Rev 13:8 "from the foundation of the world" does not connect with "written in the Book of Life" ASV: every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain?

Can you prove your claims?

I would say it's the cup of bitterness, not of wrath.

Where is your proof that the cup to drink is bitterness instead of God's wrath?

Are you aware of all the evidence below?
<Rom 1: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

< John 18:11 "the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

The word “cup” connects with the prayer in Gethsemane, (Matt 26:42; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42). The cup was so dreadful that our Savior sweat (as it were) great drops of blood over it in anticipation. Can you not hear in his mind the "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me" coming? Sin separates from God, not that the Trinity can be split, but in His human nature He can experience what God cannot (like not knowing something).

[ASV] Matt. 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

"the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

Surely this is this cup of God's wrath. It was not dreamed up by Anselm, but is in scripture.


[ASV] Psa. 11:6 Upon the wicked he will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind shall be the portion of their cup.


[ASV] Psa. 75:8 For in the hand of Jehovah there is a cup, and the wine foameth; It is full of mixture, and he poureth out of the same: Surely the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall drain them, and drink them.


[ASV] Is. 51:17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, that hast drunk at the hand of Jehovah the cup of his wrath; thou hast drunken the bowl of the cup of staggering, and drained it.


[ASV] Is. 51:22 Thus saith thy Lord Jehovah, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thy hand the cup of staggering, even the bowl of the cup of my wrath; thou shalt no more drink it again:


[ASV] Jer. 25:15 ¶ For thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, unto me: Take this cup of the wine of wrath at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.


[ASV] Jer. 49:12 For thus saith Jehovah: Behold, they to whom it pertained not to drink of the cup shall assuredly drink; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink.


[ASV] Ezek. 23:31-33 Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thy hand. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Thou shalt drink of thy sister’s cup, which is deep and large; thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much. Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.


[ASV] Rev. 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


[ASV] Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.


[ASV] Rev. 18:6 Render unto her even as she rendered, and double unto her the double according to her works: in the cup which she mingled, mingle unto her double.18:6

Let's compare the Dead Sea Scrolls:


1QpHab 11:10-15 the cup of the LORD’s right hand will come around for you, and then shame will cover your honor” (Habakkuk 2:16). This refers to the priest whose disgrace became greater than his honor, because he had not circumcised his heart’s foreskin, and he walked in the ways of drunkenness in order to put an end to thirst. But the cup of God’s wrath will destroy him, increas[ing only his dis]honor and pain […]

The Lord Jesus drank the cup of God's wrath on the cross, and He cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me."
There is therefore no need to suffer the wrath of God nor separation from Him. The cup has been drunk for you. All you must now do is trust Him as Savior, not as untrust Him as "chance-giver

'

 

[Atwood]

Digressing on the Atonement from E S

Now we digress from the plain statements of scripture about eternal security to an understanding of the atonement (Christ's crosswork). This is not totally off topic, since ES does depend upon the Savior having paid for our sins on the cross.

Now tell me, when Christ was chastised or punished for our iniquities, who was it who chastised Him? Can it be anyone other than the Father?

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastisement that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

 

[Simona25]

Re: Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

Well, Simona:

What is your proof that
1) His scripture does not speak of God's wratch being appeased?

...it simply doesn't. Can you put your finger on the verse that says that God needs to kill someone in order to appease His wrath?

2) the scheme is schizophrenic?
3) the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is made schizophrenic?

Unfortunately. By the dry and limited rationalism of the western theology.

4) The sacrifice loses its meaning thusly?
5) I mock the sacrifice?
6) this teaching is poisonous?

Very poisonous. People have attributed to God (to GOD!!!) passions that overtake Him and turn Him into something worse than a 6 years old child. They made God look like a primitive that hits you with a bat in the head if you contradict Him.

7) the RCC spread it all over the world?

Yes. But the teaching knew a strange evolution especially in the neoprotestant cults.

8) the teaching is false?

Yes. The teaching was formulated by Anselm of Canterbury around 1100. The early church never expressed such an understanding of Christ's sacrifice.

11) God does not pour out wrath?

No. The wrath of God is an anthropomorphic metaphor, the projection of the negative emotions of the fallen man upon God in order to emphasize the effects of sin.
God punishes man in a pedagogical way. He punishes man while man is in this life so that man correct himself.
In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah God had to stop evil from spreading even more (and to be a lesson for humanity across the history); that's why He destroyed the cities.

13) Anselm was wrong on Gen?

Yes, he was. How did he came up with the idea that Adam offended God? Show me the verses that say that Adam offended God.

14) Death did not come at God's command in Genesis 3?

Not at all! God warned Adam about what will happen if he eats the forbidden fruit, He didn't threaten Adam with death. But, God did not stop death because He had mercy on Adam and didn't want that his sin become eternal.

15) Sin is separation from God instead of Sin causes separation?

Sin is separation of God. This separation causes death because we move away from the source of Life (God).

16) Anselm misunderstood the righteousness/justice of God?

Yes. He interpreted it as vendetta when in fact God's righteousness is love and goodness (see the parable of the prodigal son or the parable of the workers in the vineyard).

 

[Simona25]

Re: Digressing on the Atonement from E S

Now we digress from the plain statements of scripture about eternal security to an understanding of the atonement (Christ's crosswork). This is not totally off topic, since ES does depend upon the Savior having paid for our sins on the cross.

Indeed. I was wondering why is Cassian wasting his time and energy debating eternal security when the misunderstanding comes from the doctrine of salvation. Or maybe he was debating the ES from the interior of your deviated mentality? Maybe he tried to prove you wrong with your own doctrine?

 

[Atwood]

Re: Digressing on the Atonement from E S

Indeed. I was wondering why is Cassian wasting his time and energy debating eternal security when the misunderstanding comes from the doctrine of salvation. Or maybe he was debating the ES from the interior of your deviated mentality? Maybe he tried to prove you wrong with your own doctrine?

Simona, Eternal Security is the plain statement of the Word of God, regardless of how you figure out the Atonement; but it makes sense when you consider how Christ paid for all our sins as our substitute on the cross. And after a single reading of Rom 8 & John 10, the debate is really settled; but men can be blind.

"Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins."
[He is Savior, not "chance-giver"]

Jehovah redeemeth the soul of his servants;
And none of them that take refuge in him shall be condemned.

1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.


1 tim 4:18 The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

< John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish,

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Ps 23:
Surely goodness & mercy shall follow me all the days of my life;
And I shall dwell in the House of the LORD forever.

 

[Cassian]

You don't quote the soils & prove anything. Attaining eternal life is a key part of salvation. Your statement over & over as usual with no Bible proof, goes nowhere. It is an example of your confusion (or confusing):

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

God so loved the world that He have His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish [salvation], but have eternal life [salvation].

Eternal life is part of salvation in that the sinner is doomed to death in the Lake of Fire, but by God's grace, the sinner gets a new birth and eternal life. It is absurd to deny that such is salvation.

2 Tim 2 most directly tells us that salvation comes with eternal glory.
Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Isaiah 38

Jehovah is ready to save me:
Therefore we will sing my songs with stringed instruments
All the days of our life in the house of Jehovah.




The verses you quote do not support your theory, which seems to be some kind of universalism. The damned are raised for judgment, which is hardly "granted life to all men."



Salvation is not what Christ did for all mankind, but what He did for whosoever believed in Him.
Sirs what must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

The offer of salvation goes to whosoever will. Christ is the only Savior available to all men, but He is not effectively their Savior until they become "His people" by trusting Him as SAvior (not as chance-giver).



What is man-made are all the words you type here, quite dogmatically, without any scriptural proof. So I reject your pontifications.

As I have shown, eternal security was believed long before the last 500 years. I should you its evidence in Jerome & others. And most clearly I quoted many verses to you.



1 Cor 15 says nothing about salvation to all men; to be raised for an appointment at the Great White Throne with the Lake of Fire following is no salvation. It is not eternal life, but eternal death, the 2nd death.

The redemption of all men was bought on the cross by Christ, but only effective to whosoever believes.



Salvation is of YHWH. It is the guarantee of the Lord, not of man. He shall save His people from their sins. That means whatever is required, He does it. The child of God never stops believing in Christ, neither can you show any instance of this. We see the example of Christ praying that Peter's faith fail not. Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith. Your attempt to deny the "perfecter" or "completer" meaning there, failed.



The scripture is abundant and clear. I have posted it. Your just denying things proves nothing. Christ is the author and perfecter of the Christian's faith. It does not fail. Eternal life is already a fact for the believer, as I proved.

One example: "That you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John



Note how you have no scripture. The only repentance that saves is a change of mind from non-belief to belief. Confessing sins is not a condition of salvation in scripture, though confessing one is a sinner is implicit in trusting a Savior from sin. Judas repented in the sense of being sorry, and he also confessed it. He threw the money back. But there is no indication that it helped him not; he hanged himself.



Cassian, since you are no believer and since you do not appear to associate with believers, how would you know? You have dismissed the Savior as a chance-giver.

You seem to fail to understand that when a man trusts Christ, that man is begotten of God and gets a new nature which by nature does good. Choice is made in conformity with a man's nature. That is why the Lord never chooses to do evil.



You have yet to find a text that says a believer in Christ loses faith in Christ as Savior. The scripture is clear that the believer inherits eternal life. And his inheritance is incorruptible and undefiled, reserved in Heaven.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save [not give chance] His people from their sins.

So, other than your empty assertions you have posted nothing of substance here. You again deny the fall of man as scripture describes it. You also deny salvation from the fall as scripture defines it. At the same time you deny the Incarnation of Christ and it salvific content.

You again reiterated the monergistic work of God upon man, predestination is still your only foundation doctrine and it cannot be established in scirpture as you or Calvin and reformed proponents develop it.

No evidence of any support for OSAS either yet. You post scripture but none of them support your theory, but they do support scripture in that man is a free moral agent, God cannot force His will upon man's will, that man, a believer, is in a covenantal relationship, not a predestined forced arrangement where man is manipulated.

This whole post of all those who are speaking against OSAS have given lots of scripture that shows that a believer can lose faith. You outright deny it because it would sink your theory. I fully understand your predicament.
The fact that you deny the need for a beliver to confess his sins and seek forgiveness seriously puts doubt on your salvation, per scripture.

I can understand that you would prefer your cozy, psychologically warm version of a gospel that you can be saved finitely in 20 seconds on a one-time affirmation of faith. It truly is an armchair religion.

 

[Cassian]

My friend, nowhere in this chapter does is say maybe, you must do this or that, etc. It is very clear. No matter how you translate it, is still says that he who believes, shall. Shall what? Shall have eternal life. Every scripture that you quote from the Apostle Paul is an address to a specific problem in the group he is addressing it to. When he addresses a person who ask him the direct question "what do I have to do?" he quotes John 3:16. When Jesus answers the same question, he usually illustrates the impossibility of following the Law.

I've been on this earth for more than seventy years, and I've yet to meet a person who can have eternal life under your expressed definition of salvation.

What you are saying here has nothing to do with what I stated in response to your other post. You were describing the atonement in the form of the Anselmian satisfaction theory.

In this post, I don't have any quibble with what you are saying. A believer has eternal life now, and if he remains faithful to the end he will inherit it for eternity as well. The problem the proponents of OSAS cannot prove that God forces a believer to remain whereas in scripture a believer can and does lose faith. Losing faith is also loss of eternal life. We are being saved through faith, so if one does not have faith, why would it be possible to attain eternal life with no faith?

 

[Atwood]

Re: Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

...it simply doesn't.

Since you don't interact with the verses, there is no reason to believe you.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Atwood

2) the scheme is schizophrenic?
3) the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is made schizophrenic?



Simo saith: "Unfortunately. By the dry and limited rationalism of the western theology. "

Again what is your proof of 2 & 3?
How do you know that there is one coherent theology that may be labeled W theol?
What is your proof that it is dry & limited & rationalism?

Originally Posted by Atwood

4) The sacrifice loses its meaning thusly?
5) I mock the sacrifice?
6) this teaching is poisonous?



"Very poisonous. People have attributed to God (to GOD!!!) passions that overtake Him and turn Him into something worse than a 6 years old child. They made God look like a primitive that hits you with a bat in the head if you contradict Him. "

How does putting "very" in front of your statement prove it?
What is your proof of 4 & 5?
How does substitutionary penal atonement make God be overtaken by passions?
Who said he was overtaken?
Have you searched the wrath of God in the Bible?

Originally Posted by Atwood

7) the RCC spread it all over the world?



Yes. But the teaching knew a strange evolution especially in the neoprotestant cults.
Again, what is your proof of 7?
How does saying "Yes" prove anything? Do you do circular reasoning?
How do you know that there are neoprot cults?
How do you now that the teaching had a strange evolution?
How do you know it evolved instead of came out of Bible study?

Originally Posted by Atwood

8) the teaching is false?



Yes. The teaching was formulated by Anselm of Canterbury around 1100. The early church never expressed such an understanding of Christ's sacrifice.
Again, prove 8. Saying "Yes" is circular reasoning.
What is your proof that the early church never expressed such an understanding?
How do you know that the Bible does not teach this?
Have you read the Bible through, marking all the passages on salvation as I have?
I wait still for proof.

Originally Posted by Atwood

11) God does not pour out wrath?



"No. The wrath of God is an anthropomorphic metaphor, the projection of the negative emotions of the fallen man upon God in order to emphasize the effects of sin.
God punishes man in a pedagogical way. He punishes man while man is in this life so that man correct himself.
In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah God had to stop evil from spreading even more (and to be a lesson for humanity across the history); that's why He destroyed the cities. "

Again we wait for proof of 11.
How do you know that the wrath of God is an anthropomorphic metaphor?
How do you know that it is projection?
How can you write off a Bible doctrine?
How do you know it is pedagogical? Proof?
How do you know it is corrective?
How do you know that S & G were destroyed to stop evil from spreading?
Did it stop evil from spreading?
Still no proof of the claim that "God does not pour out wrath." Will you give it, or just keep saying things?

Originally Posted by Atwood

13) Anselm was wrong on Gen?



"Yes, he was. How did he came up with the idea that Adam offended God? Show me the verses that say that Adam offended God. "

You made the statement that Anselm was wrong on Gen; so you need to prove it yourself. Do you admit that you cannot?

Originally Posted by Atwood

14) Death did not come at God's command in Genesis 3?



"Not at all! God warned Adam about what will happen if he eats the forbidden fruit, He didn't threaten Adam with death. But, God did not stop death because He had mercy on Adam and didn't want that his sin become eternal. "

How do you know what God didn't do? Do you have a complete transcript?
The question was not about threat anyway, but command.
Again, how do you know that Death did not come at God's command in Gen 3?
How do you know why God did not stop death?
Are you used to just pontificating without proving things from scripture?

Originally Posted by Atwood

15) Sin is separation from God instead of Sin causes separation?




"Sin is separation of God. This separation causes death because we move away from the source of Life (God)."
More circular reasoning. How can you prove that sin is separation by repeating you claim?
Again, How do you know that sin is separation from God, instead of causes separation?

Originally Posted by Atwood

16) Anselm misunderstood the righteousness/justice of God?



"Yes. He interpreted it as vendetta when in fact God's righteousness is love and goodness (see the parable of the prodigal son or the parable of the workers in the vineyard)."

More circular reasoning. The question was How do you know that Anselm misunderstood the righteousness/justice of God. You say "Yes," for crying outloud!
How do you know that Anselm misunderstood?
How do you know that Anselm excluded love & goodness from God by vendetta?
How do the prodigal son & workers in vineyard exclude Christ paying for their sins?

Simona, the big question is why you think that you should be believed for just saying things and that you don't need proof for your claims? Can't you see what you are doing -- just saying things mostly; no proof like the Lord Jesus gave, "It is written."


​

 

[Cassian]

Re: Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

How do you know that

1) If there is no threat, that implies God did not bring death on Adam? (the absence of a threat implies what God did not do??? Is this the fallacy of denying an antecedent?

2) When scripture says, "It is appointed to man once to die," someone other than God made that appointment?

3) If God warned Adam, that is inconsistent with God carrying out the judgment of death?

4) John 3:16 says that God gave His son to save us from a death which is not determined by God?

5) If man brought death on himself, that precludes the possibility that death is God's judgment?

6) Merely showing sacrificial love would take away death & reconcile the world?
7) Christ cleansed the human nature from sin???
(How does that jive with Rom 1-3???)

8) Man can grow into His likeness instead of being birthed into His likeness?
9) We are asked instead of commanded to be perfect?
10) The command to perfection has any other purpose than convicting men of sin?

11) In Rev 13:8 "from the foundation of the world" does not connect with "written in the Book of Life" ASV: every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain?

Can you prove your claims?



Where is your proof that the cup to drink is bitterness instead of God's wrath?

Are you aware of all the evidence below?
<Rom 1: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

< John 18:11 "the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

The word “cup” connects with the prayer in Gethsemane, (Matt 26:42; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42). The cup was so dreadful that our Savior sweat (as it were) great drops of blood over it in anticipation. Can you not hear in his mind the "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me" coming? Sin separates from God, not that the Trinity can be split, but in His human nature He can experience what God cannot (like not knowing something).

[ASV] Matt. 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

"the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

Surely this is this cup of God's wrath. It was not dreamed up by Anselm, but is in scripture.


[ASV] Psa. 11:6 Upon the wicked he will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind shall be the portion of their cup.


[ASV] Psa. 75:8 For in the hand of Jehovah there is a cup, and the wine foameth; It is full of mixture, and he poureth out of the same: Surely the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall drain them, and drink them.


[ASV] Is. 51:17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, that hast drunk at the hand of Jehovah the cup of his wrath; thou hast drunken the bowl of the cup of staggering, and drained it.


[ASV] Is. 51:22 Thus saith thy Lord Jehovah, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thy hand the cup of staggering, even the bowl of the cup of my wrath; thou shalt no more drink it again:


[ASV] Jer. 25:15 ¶ For thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, unto me: Take this cup of the wine of wrath at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.


[ASV] Jer. 49:12 For thus saith Jehovah: Behold, they to whom it pertained not to drink of the cup shall assuredly drink; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink.


[ASV] Ezek. 23:31-33 Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thy hand. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Thou shalt drink of thy sister’s cup, which is deep and large; thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much. Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.


[ASV] Rev. 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


[ASV] Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.


[ASV] Rev. 18:6 Render unto her even as she rendered, and double unto her the double according to her works: in the cup which she mingled, mingle unto her double.18:6

Let's compare the Dead Sea Scrolls:


1QpHab 11:10-15 the cup of the LORD’s right hand will come around for you, and then shame will cover your honor” (Habakkuk 2:16). This refers to the priest whose disgrace became greater than his honor, because he had not circumcised his heart’s foreskin, and he walked in the ways of drunkenness in order to put an end to thirst. But the cup of God’s wrath will destroy him, increas[ing only his dis]honor and pain […]

The Lord Jesus drank the cup of God's wrath on the cross, and He cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me."
There is therefore no need to suffer the wrath of God nor separation from Him. The cup has been drunk for you. All you must now do is trust Him as Savior, not as untrust Him as "chance-giver

'

The more you speak the more you deny scripture. You claim you read scripture through many times. Either you were just mouthing words, or you just do not comprehend what scripture says.
Heb 2:14 tells you point blank, unequivocally that Satan imposed death upon man, took man captive. It was NOT God that imposed death upon man. This is why Original Sin theory is unscriptural, and why Anselm who used both Original Sin theory and the metaphor of wrath against God, as the whole definition of atonement. It makes sin God's problem when it is man's problem. The wrath is man's perception of sin, not God's enforcement of punishment. Anselmian theory also makes God change and then leaves man still in a sinful state with no cure in sight. You might want to study both scripture and Anselmian's theory to see why it is unscriptural.

You have used both theories repeatedly in your pontifications. They also deny the Incarnation and its salvific content which you have now done several times quite vociforously.

 

[Atwood]

What you are saying here has nothing to do with what I stated in response to your other post. You were describing the atonement in the form of the Anselmian satisfaction theory.

How do you know that his atonement POV is not from scripture? How do you know he got it from Anselm?
How do you know that it is merely a theory?

[/quote]. A believer has eternal life now, and if he remains faithful to the end he will inherit it for eternity as well.[/quote]

How do you know that eternal life is not eternal?
How do you know that inheriting it is in doubt?
How do you know that remaining faithful is the requirement?
How do you know that the inheritance is not incorruptible, undefiled & guarded in Heaven?

The problem the proponents of OSAS cannot prove that God forces a believer to remain whereas in scripture a believer can and does lose faith.

What is your proof that OSAS requires God to force a believer?
What is your verse that says that a man who believes in Christ loses his faith in Christ?
Why do you make up things and not quote a verse to prove them?

Losing faith is also loss of eternal life.

What is your proof of that?
Where in scripture does anyone lose eternal life?
If it can be lost, how is it eternal?

We are being saved through faith, so if one does not have faith, why would it be possible to attain eternal life with no faith?

Why do suggest that ES means you attain eternal life with no faith?
Straw man?
When will you have faith in the Savior, instead of writing him off as a "chance-giver"?

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[tourist]

Nonsense, deny does not occur in Mat 25. Quote a verse that says they all believed in Jesus. Those who believe in the Lord Jesus do not perish, but have everlasting life. Wake up, Kenneth. There is this Savior who saves His people from their sins!


For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

""And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it."And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it." - 1 Thes 5

[/QUOTE]

He saved me from my sins. Jesus is God and is all-knowing. He died for all sins past, present and future for those who acknowledge their sins, asked forgiveness, and invited Him into their hearts. I invited Jesus in my heart many years ago, He is still there today and He will be in my heart until the day He takes me home with Him. Why do so many doubt and walk in fear? I do not fear God. I respect God and trust on the holy name of Jesus.

 

[newbirth]

Re: Same ol' Same ol' diversion from the SAvior who saves

I don't recall posting anything that changed God's word. Here is what the word says, & it is no babble:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins

Trusting the Lord Jesus is what saved. Trusting Him does require a belief-system, but the affirmation of a belief system alone, does not save.

Abandon any "chance-giver" theory, and trust the Savior as the Savior.

that is what you said..... so your trusting saved you ....see you don't even know what you believe.... God saved you by His grace he cleaned you up, He gave you a measure of faith and all things that pertains to life and godliness to stay in that clean state....
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

but you will reject this word because you love the doctrine of man more than you love Christ